So, we crank up this 5E thing, and I dismiss Wizard (Diviner) as a playable archetype, partly because one of the players says that the Diviner has an OP special ability at lower levels. While we're running session #1, I get asked, "so, was that just diviners, or all divination spells?"

Thinking about the current campaign, wherein various "chaos spouts" (called "kataria") have opened in order to keep the Gods of Law at bay (thus screening ALL gods from exerting influence, therefore no divine magic), I figure, "well, maybe divination magic is screwed up, too, as the "weave" is constantly in flux (which would really mess with ALL magic, but never mind that), and I say, "Nope--no divination spells. They just don't work."

Oh, my, my...boy are there a lot of useful tools now GONE. Yet, I find this intriguing.

So, my question, has anyone ever done this sort of thing, no divination spells? (abilities like Paladin sense still work, though).

Quote from: cranebump;955532So, my question, has anyone ever done this sort of thing, no divination spells?

I tend to avoid 'high concept' shit.

Yes, everyone in my cooking fantasia carries half an onion, just like Terry Pratchett's Monstrous Regiment. Basically there was little on hand to cook game in the wilderness besides the herbs available in the immediate vicinity of battle. So, I decreed that every NPC carries half an onion, just in case -- and thus it became setting canon.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;955550I tend to avoid 'high concept' shit.

Not sure it's so much "high concept" as it is, "sorry, this shit don't work." In particular, a LOT of helpful shit--all the detection shit, to be specific. Conceptually, the whole "chaos spouts" thing came out what happened with the Dungeon World capstone. The wizard succeeded in destroying a relic in order to "protect the world." It did so, but at a cost, and this is one of them. I guess that's a "concept." I guess...

Anyhoo, we just started, but I feel like it might make the world even more interesting, and certainly more mysterious, for the players, because they can't dice their way to knowledge. What's the potion? Dunno, taste it. Wonder what their alignment is? Fuck if I know. No finding, scrying, detecting or communing. No comprehending languages or speaking with animals. No Locate Object. Goodbye shortcuts (well, outside skills, I guess).

Then again, maybe it's just some GM dickery, rationalized.:-)

I probably have, but I also long ago granted myself the ability to say "That was a mistake so I'm declaring it's really this way instead."

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;955606I probably have, but I also long ago granted myself the ability to say "That was a mistake so I'm declaring it's really this way instead."

Same here, especially when you're piggy backing on the campaign weave via reaction to player stuff and all that. These days, my biggest mess ups occur when I do something like, "So, now that you figured out your mentor was kidnapped, what next?" and they all look around at each other, til one of them says, "He was kidnapped? We didn't know that." (You didn't? But I thought you...okay, so...now you know... [derrrrrrr]).:-)

Quote from: cranebump;955532and I say, "Nope--no divination spells. They just don't work."

Oh, my, my...boy are there a lot of useful tools now GONE. Yet, I find this intriguing.

So...you're saying a bit of foresight might have helped before dismissing all divinations?

Quote from: Tristram Evans;955610So...you're saying a bit of foresight might have helped before dismissing all divinations?

The irony is not lost on me, my friend. (and I LIKE IT).:-)

Quote from: Opaopajr;955553Yes, everyone in my cooking fantasia carries half an onion, just like Terry Pratchett's Monstrous Regiment. Basically there was little on hand to cook game in the wilderness besides the herbs available in the immediate vicinity of battle. So, I decreed that every NPC carries half an onion, just in case -- and thus it became setting canon.

That is some cool stuff, right there.

Quote from: cranebump;955605Not sure it's so much "high concept" as it is, "sorry, this shit don't work."

Saying it's a world without divination magic may not be, but the part about 'chaos spouts' and the 'Gods of Law' most certainly is, to my narrowed, jaded eyes.

Quote from: cranebump;955605Then again, maybe it's just some GM dickery, rationalized.:-)

Given that divination is the very last form of magic I would throw out, yeah, it seems a bit like 'no cellular service or Internet access' in a modern game, a way for shitty referees to dodge access to information and aid by the players' characters.

But it sounds like you didn't really think it through, rather than set out by design to fuck the players in the earholes.

I havent banned a whole spell array mainly because Im aware that there are many counters either allready in place in the system, or ones that can be created on the fly. That could be anything from a zone that prevents X from being used, to masking items or spells that counter the effect. etc.

I have though had whole classes not available due to a setting just not featuring them. Not because they were problematic. They just werent part of the setting.

I have no problem with a major change to define a homebrew setting.

It's no different than "Humans are the Only Sentient Race" or "There is no day or night, just gloom" or whatever.

I personally like Divination spells, but I could see declaring No XYZ spells for a certain campaigns. Hell, I've run D&D with no clerics only mages, and no mages only clerics, and both campaigns worked fine. The players just adjust and experience a different game.

But then again, my favorite Halo mod was the deathmatch with only rocket launchers and swords.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;955616Given that divination is the very last form of magic I would throw out...

Interesting way to put it. in what order would you throw types of magic out of a setting? What gets the axe first, and so on?

I cut divination spells from a short campaign which was basically a who-dunnit mystery.  Not much of a campaign if they could just divine the answers.

The diviner mage does have a pretty busted meta-power...but there are plenty of those. There are a few divination spells (eg, Wizard Eye) which are ridiculously good, but I hold that more to poor thinking/negligible playtesting by WotC than an actual problem with divination as a concept.

If I was going to throw out one class of spells, it'd be "cantrips." That might not be the what was intended, though. Next up? Probably summons, or at least I'd rewrite them so they don't require either the player to flip through all possible monsters to figure out what's bestest, or for the DM to be a dick/prepare in advance for every possibility to come up in some fair way.