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"Jumping the Shark" is that critical moment for a TV show, when you know they've just finished poisoning the show of any goodness it may have had, and everything goes downhill from there.  The name comes from the famous episode of "Happy Days" where Fonzie jumped over a shark-filled pool with his motorcycle.

I think RPGs/RPG settings can sometimes "jump the shark" too.  For example:  Forgotten Realms with the time of troubles.  It was a good setting before that, and it wouldn't be a good setting again until now, when its just slowly starting to become a good setting, albeit still hampered by all the stupid continuity crap and idiocy that came between that stupid, stupid, event and today.

Deadlands: Deadlands jumped the shark with the very earliest sourcebooks.  The main book(s, though second edition is more playable its not nearly as good in other respects) were really brilliant examples of how to make a GOOD wild west RPG, something that had never been done in the history of the gaming world until then. Sheer brilliance. And then they started almost immediately to load the setting with pile upon pile of utter crap.

Which other games can you think of as having "jumped the shark", and when?

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*Thinks about Vampire*

.oO(Damn thing didn't just jump the shark, it tapdanced across it's back.)

.oO(Why am I thinking out loud on the internet?)

.oO(Will anyone even realize that these are "thought balloons?" I'm typing?)

Settingwise everything after RIFTS world book 11, Coalition War Campaign, has been ironically boring. I might leave an exception for Warlords of Russia, but as much as I try, nothing after 11 really excites me.

Quote from: JamesVSettingwise everything after RIFTS world book 11, Coalition War Campaign, has been ironically boring. I might leave an exception for Warlords of Russia, but as much as I try, nothing after 11 really excites me.

Some Rifts fans feel there was a drought of good titles from around the Coalition War Camapaign until some of the more recent books that came out emphasizing more of the earlier feel of Rifts than "metropolis and huge military power shooting out of the middle of nowhere that we never mentioned before!".

(EDIT:  But it's Rifts, where we don't jump the shark, we shred it with our rail gun, keep it alive using Atlantean bio-wizardry, then rebuild it into a Juicer Shark.  With its own power armor).

I think the old ICE MERP books jumped the shark towards the end for me, but I can't say precisely where.

Quote from: Zachary The First(EDIT:  But it's Rifts, where we don't jump the shark, we shred it with our rail gun, keep it alive using Atlantean bio-wizardry, then rebuild it into a Juicer Shark.  With its own power armor).

If I didn't have to worry about legal action, I'd try a write-up for a Juicer Shark. And in its honor I will put up what I nominate as the official RIFTS smiley for theRPGsite
:verkill:

There's really never a bad occasion to use that smiley, but I'll second that designation.

Mystara jumped the shark with the 'Wrath of the Immortals' box set.

Everything that advanced the timeline beyond 1000 AC in Mystara sucked ass IMO.

Quote from: JamesVAnd in its honor I will put up what I nominate as the official RIFTS smiley for theRPGsite
:verkill:

That's 1d4 points of megadamage in action.

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Quote from: AkrasiaMystara jumped the shark with the 'Wrath of the Immortals' box set.

Everything that advanced the timeline beyond 1000 AC in Mystara sucked ass IMO.

Now, see, I disagree. The game took a turn in a different direction after Wrath, one that not everyone loved, but it still didn't qualify as "jumping the shark". I, for one, think that Wrath is a fairly good product, and the wizard's almanacs have a touch of greatness to them.

But where Mystara REALLY jumped the shark is when they switched it to AD&D.  At that point, it was pretty obvious to anyone and everyone.

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Traveller jumped the shark with the publication of Survival Margin, in my estimation.

Tharkhold was Torg's Jump the Shark moment.

Quote from: Abyssal MawTharkhold was Torg's Jump the Shark moment.

  Ooooooh.  Good one.  It served only to complete overshadow the Cyberpapacy and the victorian horror one.  What was it called?  Orrosh?

  Having said that, I was never a huge fan of the living land.  I thought it missed its target quite comprehensibly.  Was it not supposed to be a kind of "Land that time forgot" type thing?  instead it was just a jungle... with lizards.

The Living Land had the most hilariously bad art of any of them. I kinda liked it as a realm though, just because it was crazy and had dinosaurs.

Shadowrun jumped the shark when Fanpro took over and published Year of the Comet.  Everything from that point forward was pointless.

Quote from: VellorianShadowrun jumped the shark when Fanpro took over and published Year of the Comet.  Everything from that point forward was pointless.

I agree that YotC was totally wacked out goofiness (thus almost consistant with the setting ;) ). But you do realise that YotC was actually produced by FASA. Fanpro inhereted the finished manuscript.  Now it could be argued that Fanpro should have just killed it, and are guilty by compliance. But they didn't create it.

HackMaster jumped the shark with Lord Flataroy's Guide, which was a HM version of the AD&D Castle Guide (with maybe some bits from others in that AD&D series). It was the poorest HM book to date, and the line has yet to recover.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalOoooooh.  Good one.  It served only to complete overshadow the Cyberpapacy and the victorian horror one.  What was it called?  Orrosh?

Orrorsh. It was "horrors" with the "h" put at the end.

I thought Tharkold was interesting in and of itself, and I dug the monster book for it. I think I'd rather have had Tharkold as a game setting all to itself, on the parallel Earth it was on, rather than one of the invading realms. Personally, I thought TORG as a setting jumped the shark with the Core Earth sourcebook (whatever it was called). Not a bad book itself, but it just wasn't all that interesting concept-wise. As poorly put-together as most of the TORG setting books were, virtually all of them had some cool bits and pieces, except the one I mentioned.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalHaving said that, I was never a huge fan of the living land.  I thought it missed its target quite comprehensibly.  Was it not supposed to be a kind of "Land that time forgot" type thing?  instead it was just a jungle... with lizards.

The setting itself was, indeed, something like a "land that time forgot" type of thing. Or "Land of the Lost," specifically, with the sleestak and everything. It was my least favorite of the invading realms.

Quote from: Abyssal MawThe Living Land had the most hilariously bad art of any of them. I kinda liked it as a realm though, just because it was crazy and had dinosaurs.

Yeah, that art was horrible, like the art in some low-rent fanzine. Like I said, it was my least favorite of the invading realms. It could have had a certain charm to it, but there was an overload of oddball stuff in it - intelligent starfish among the things that stuck out.

Quote from: blakkieI agree that YotC was totally wacked out goofiness (thus almost consistant with the setting ;) ). But you do realise that YotC was actually produced by FASA. Fanpro inhereted the finished manuscript.  Now it could be argued that Fanpro should have just killed it, and are guilty by compliance. But they didn't create it.

I liked YotC. *ducks*

What bugs me a bit is the book's format. I'd rather have something more focused (Super Tuesday, Universal Brotherhood or Portfolio of a Dragon).

DnD is going to jump the shark fairly soon.
Complete Mage.
After Complete Arcane, Spell Compendium, Tome of Magic, Magic of Incarnum... you get the idea. It's freaking MAGIC. We get the POINT.

Quote from: beejazzDnD is going to jump the shark fairly soon.
Complete Mage.
After Complete Arcane, Spell Compendium, Tome of Magic, Magic of Incarnum... you get the idea. It's freaking MAGIC. We get the POINT.

I was scratching my head wondering if Magic of Incarnum was 3e's shark-jumping. That was the point that I first seriously started asking "Do I need this? Will I ever use this?"

Quote from: Caesar SlaadI was scratching my head wondering if Magic of Incarnum was 3e's shark-jumping. That was the point that I first seriously started asking "Do I need this? Will I ever use this?"

Possibly, but I ran out of spending money before it came out, so I wouldn't know. And I really have only had access to DnD thus far, so I probably wouldn't believe it if I did know. And I'm writing my own system in the hopes that I will no longer need to care.

Wow, I just noticed nobody has yet mentioned this doozy. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:WG7CastleGreyhawkCover.jpg) I still recall flipping open to a random page, reading an entry about +3 eggbeaters, and thinking "W...T...F?"

QuoteI liked YotC. *ducks*

Get him!!!

Hehe, yah I know there are a number of people that live silently in their guilt about enjoying Shadowrun Fury-ized. ;)

Well, the way I see it, there are two primary ways that most RPGs jump the shark:

1. Metaplot. Any game with a metaplot will experience a fatally-sucky twist in said metaplot at some point. It's just a law of nature. :)

2. Designers working on follow-up products in a line either forget or deliberately ignore what made the game so successful and beloved in the first place. Gamma World d20 comes to mind as one of these. If you ever fail to ask yourself "What do people like about this game, anyway?" bad things will result.

Quote from: YamoWell, the way I see it, there are two primary ways that most RPGs jump the shark:

1. Metaplot. Any game with a metaplot will experience a fatally-sucky twist in said metaplot at some point. It's just a law of nature. :)

2. Designers working on follow-up products in a line either forget or deliberately ignore what made the game so successful and beloved in the first place.

Traveller: The New Era exemplifies both of those to me.

"Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand"

I don't mind the book.  The book itself has some absolutely wonderful ideas.  But what WW did to try to distance themselves from it (up to and including nuking the site from orbit (and that's probably the first time I've used that quote appropriately)) damaged a setting that already had huge problems

Quote from: Hastur T. Fannon"Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand"

I don't mind the book.  The book itself has some absolutely wonderful ideas.  But what WW did to try to distance themselves from it (up to and including nuking the site from orbit (and that's probably the first time I've used that quote appropriately)) damaged a setting that already had huge problems

In that book the thematic seeds were sown for the eventual nuking of Ravnos.

Terrible, terrible stuff. I now look back on my old WoD collection and wonder what the hell they (and I) were thinking.

I'd say that Rifts jumped the laser equipped sharks  with Juicer Uprising.  That book explicitly put metaplot ahead of gameplay for the entire gameline, and emphasized that PCs could do nothing of consequence.  It was a pretty big change for a game line whose corebook described the PCs as "larger than life heroes."  But, then again, the trend of deprotagonizing the PCs had been going on for some time before that in Rifts books anyway.

Coalition War Campaign proved to anyone who was paying attention that the entire setting was just Kevin Siembieda's fanwank over his nazi creations, as they were catapulted to extreme power levels regardless of the extreme damage it did to the logic the setting had.  Of course, everyone probably knew that already too, because every damn worldbook had to have a section of what that area thought of the podunk little Coalition States, even though they had no way of knowing they existed.  The best part was in one of the South America books where, after we've been through a long segment of text about how no one from North America has made it down there, there just happen to be a CS embassies sprinkled about.

Rifts has no advenutres or campaigns, so the metaplot is not very intrusive. There is no common baseline, so everyone's playing in his home universe anyway.

Quote from: SettembriniRifts has no advenutres or campaigns, so the metaplot is not very intrusive. There is no common baseline, so everyone's playing in his home universe anyway.

No offense, but this statement shows a complete ignorance of the gameline.

Juicer Uprising, for example, is an adventure book where the PCs are either led along by the nose to follow the metaplot, or are forced to adventure "behind the scenes" to do nothing of consequence.  The entire Siege of Tolkeen series is one big set of adventures which are part of canon and, once again, the PCs are explicitly only along for the ride.  There are adventures in the Rifts Indexes which are more or less canon to the proceedings in the setting.  There are TONS of pre-set adventures.

As for the metaplot, from what I've read of Vampire, I'd say that Rifts's metaplot is even more intrusive.

QuoteNo offense, but this statement shows a complete ignorance of the gameline.

Well, I own every book of the Rifts line, except Dinosaur Swamp.
And if you wanna call Juicer Uprising an adventure, go ahead. It is in my opinion, just a collection of illustration and ideas, like any Palladium product. Even the two indices have only HL&S or rough outlines. Those are not adventures. YMMV, of course.

QuoteOriginally Posted by Caesar Slaad
I was scratching my head wondering if Magic of Incarnum was 3e's shark-jumping. That was the point that I first seriously started asking "Do I need this? Will I ever use this?"

I dunno. I haven't gotten Magic of Incarnum (and feel no urge to buy it), but I know a couple people who like it. It's just an alternate magic system/add-on.

That said, I totally loved the Tome of Magic which had three more alternate magic using classes and systems that support them. Like the Binder is my favorite. It's basicly like the old Dragonquest demon-summoner guy who binds demons and then manifests powers based on what demon he has managed to bind. Not at all necessary, I realize, but still an interesting and cool take on a type of magic user.

Without a doubt.  Seventh Sea Jumped the Shark with the Montaigne Revolution.  The setting just kept getting weirder after that.

Quote from: RPGPundit"Jumping the Shark" is that critical moment for a TV show, when you know they've just finished poisoning the show of any goodness it may have had, and everything goes downhill from there.  The name comes from the famous episode of "Happy Days" where Fonzie jumped over a shark-filled pool with his motorcycle.

To set the record straight, actually he jumps over a shark in a netted enclosure in the ocean on water skis.  Yeah, that makes it sound even worse, doesn't it?

And it was referenced in Arrested Development when Henry Winkler jumps over a shark.

To be honest, I've never understood the problem with meta-plot.  What's wrong with just ignoring it?

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalAnd it was referenced in Arrested Development when Henry Winkler jumps over a shark.

To be honest, I've never understood the problem with meta-plot.  What's wrong with just ignoring it?

The problems come when you are expecting continuing support from the game line, and as time goes on, the nature of the support clash with that decision.

Some game lines even make mechanical changes as the result of a metaplot event.

R... I C

kthnx :)

I've never been deep enough into a game line to actually see it jump.  Right now I've been sucked into WFRP's neverending line of supps and it's got me wondering when this new edition's going to collapse.

Is there a consensus on the type of things that kill a game line?  I mean: if you were to pick up a new book tomorrow, is there anything that could make you say "Yeah, this line's going tits up," with any certainty?

Furries are a close candidate.

Furries are one of those things that make the world a better place purely by virtue of existing.  I'll tolerate no badmouthing of furries.

The are excellent....when they stay over there. ------>

;)  Seriously though, when something changes drastically that's usually a bad sign.  Going from no furies to furies is a drastic change.

I used to play Palladium's Robotech (a looooooong time ago), and when "Lancer's Rockers" came out...

:confused:

What the hell?

Yup: metaplot is basically ass unless done very very carefully; because it is usually the designers forcing the people actually playing the game to either abandon the support product line or change their own setting to fit the metaplot in the course of play.

And when metaplot takes a sudden drastic or wierd turn ("The World Will Never Be the Same!!" and all that bullshit), then its particularly bad, because it means that if you don't dig said turn you're basically fucked as far as future products are concerned, forever.

And yes, Lancer's Rockers was definitely Robotech's Jump The Shark moment.

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Quote from: blakkieThe are excellent....when they stay over there. ------>

  Eh, I'd happily drink with a furvert any day of the week.  Anyone who runs the risk of social ridicule by nailing their weird sexuality to the flag pole deserves respect.

  I have to admit though, not a fan of anthropomorphic animals in game though.  I once played a fox musketeer and that was pretty fun because I was able to be a complete and utter shit but I don't generally see it as much of a plus that a system has furries.

  What do we mean though when we speak of them suddenly appearing in games?  Do we mean like cyberpunk having catgirls in its supplements? or is there some other phenomenon because most games with furries in them tend to be very open about that fact... including the likes of Werewolf.   It's not like you buy Pendragon and then AAAAIIIIIII! The ORkney Islands are full of Furries!

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalEh, I'd happily drink with a furvert any day of the week.  Anyone who runs the risk of social ridicule by nailing their weird sexuality to the flag pole deserves respect.

  I have to admit though, not a fan of anthropomorphic animals in game though.  I once played a fox musketeer and that was pretty fun because I was able to be a complete and utter shit but I don't generally see it as much of a plus that a system has furries.

  What do we mean though when we speak of them suddenly appearing in games?  Do we mean like cyberpunk having catgirls in its supplements? or is there some other phenomenon because most games with furries in them tend to be very open about that fact... including the likes of Werewolf.   It's not like you buy Pendragon and then AAAAIIIIIII! The ORkney Islands are full of Furries!

I have no great issue with them.  They do their thing which isn't really any of my business.

I don't see the point to them, I entirely fail to see how a pirate game is improved by playing furry pirates, but for those who want that it tends to be clearly labelled.

THS has furries, but that's because in game a rich guy was a furry fan and paid to have them created, which is fine as that actually is kind of credible.

Quote from: BalbinusI don't see the point to them, I entirely fail to see how a pirate game is improved by playing furry pirates, but for those who want that it tends to be clearly labelled.

  I feel the same way.  They seem like such a lazy creation.  It's like in the old traveller supplements when they went "need an alien race... hmmmm... I know... intelligent dogs!".  

  It's also the fact that there's no clearly demarcated furry genre which would make their inclusion seem acceptable.  In RPGs at least a lot of the time it's just pirates... with furries or post-apocalyptic action... with furries.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalEh, I'd happily drink with a furvert any day of the week.  Anyone who runs the risk of social ridicule by nailing their weird sexuality to the flag pole deserves respect.

I think it's more one of those thingd where when you're a 40 year-old Aspie virgin crankin' it to Rescue Rangers porn in your parents' basement, you really have nothing to lose. It's like respecting a legless man for putting his shoe collection on the line.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalEh, I'd happily drink with a furvert any day of the week.  Anyone who runs the risk of social ridicule by nailing their weird sexuality to the flag pole deserves respect.

  I have to admit though, not a fan of anthropomorphic animals in game though.  I once played a fox musketeer and that was pretty fun because I was able to be a complete and utter shit but I don't generally see it as much of a plus that a system has furries.

That was what I ment.

I'm curious though, since I don't personally know any 'out' furverts (not as a matter of actively avoiding, just the way it is).  There is a differentiation usually made between sex with a goat, sex as a goat, and sex with/as a goatman (like Pan)?  I also assume it isn't always about the sex itself, but the....how to put it.....asthetics of a little extra hair?


"Please get out to a new one
If you can't lend your hand
For the threads they are a-changin'." - Bob Dylan commenting on thread drift :p

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalIt's like in the old traveller supplements when they went "need an alien race... hmmmm... I know... intelligent dogs!".

That particular concept can be done right, though: for instance, see the Tines in A Fire Upon the Deep by Vernor Vinge if you want an example of plausible canine aliens.

Quote from: YamoWell, the way I see it, there are two primary ways that most RPGs jump the shark:

1. Metaplot. Any game with a metaplot will experience a fatally-sucky twist in said metaplot at some point. It's just a law of nature. :)

2. Designers working on follow-up products in a line either forget or deliberately ignore what made the game so successful and beloved in the first place. Gamma World d20 comes to mind as one of these. If you ever fail to ask yourself "What do people like about this game, anyway?" bad things will result.

I agree with this observation.

The only setting in which the meta-plot did not ruin it completely (that I can think of) is the Warhammer 'Old World'.  (And I'm sure that many people think that the 'Storm of Chaos' did ruin the Old World!)

Quote from: RPGPunditYup: metaplot is basically ass unless done very very carefully; because it is usually the designers forcing the people actually playing the game to either abandon the support product line or change their own setting to fit the metaplot in the course of play.

And when metaplot takes a sudden drastic or wierd turn ("The World Will Never Be the Same!!" and all that bullshit), then its particularly bad, because it means that if you don't dig said turn you're basically fucked as far as future products are concerned, forever...

I agree with this, and wonder how it is compatible with your favourable opinion of the 'Wrath of the Immortals' set for Mystara.
:confused:

Quote from: AkrasiaI agree with this, and wonder how it is compatible with your favourable opinion of the 'Wrath of the Immortals' set for Mystara.
:confused:

How much was done for Known World after that? I was under the impression that that was pretty much the end, which would at least curtail "useless" follow-ups.

Quote from: YamoHow much was done for Known World after that? I was under the impression that that was pretty much the end, which would at least curtail "useless" follow-ups.

No, Wrath was not the end.  There were some subsequent products for the D&D line (including the 'Poor Wizard Almanacs', and iirc another box set, 'Champions of Mystara').
 
And of course all the 2e AD&D 'Mystara' material (including the 'Red Steel' stuff) came years afterwards, since Mystara was restructured (i.e. 'ruined') for 2e AD&D after TSR shut down the separate D&D line.

Well, Wrath was really the START of the Mystara metaplot, since it had no metaplot prior to that, just the baseline setting forever stuck around 1000 AC.

After the gazeteers, hollow world, the Princess Ark articles in Dragon, and dawn of the emperors, there was really not much else left to release for D&D basic without doing something like the Wrath of the Immortals.

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