It may be earlier than you think.
#dnd        #ttrpg   #osr 

2e began the wussyfication.

But 2e had the best D&D settings.

Quote from: Spinachcat on October 02, 2023, 03:58:49 AM
2e began the wussyfication.

But 2e had the best D&D settings.

Fact. And some of the best D&D art--at least outside of the PHB, which had some of the blandest art in 2e, including the pic Pundit mentioned in the video...



PS: Also, 2e had the best splat books, including all of the Complete X series.

  That one time back in the late 1970s when you tapped your foot to the disco beat. That was it, it started there. It's all your fault. 

If it wasn't for that 2/2 time signature, Major chords, and that cutie across the room grooving while stealing glances at you, everything would have been so metal, forever.  You've failed us, grandpas!

Quote from: VisionStorm on October 02, 2023, 06:36:48 AM

Quote from: Spinachcat on October 02, 2023, 03:58:49 AM
2e began the wussyfication.

But 2e had the best D&D settings.

Fact. And some of the best D&D art--at least outside of the PHB, which had some of the blandest art in 2e, including the pic Pundit mentioned in the video...



PS: Also, 2e had the best splat books, including all of the Complete X series.

Seriously?  2e art was generally trash, particularly DiTerlizzi, possibly the worst artist in TSR history.  The splat books only highlighted the problems with "kits" and the other bloat they added to 1e, which had already started diluting itself via bloat.  And the writing, particularly in the Planescape garbage, was bad.  Throw in crap like baatezu, tanar'ri, and three hole punched supplements and it's easy to see why the company was circling the drain in the 90s. 

It was interesting as there was a gap between those of us in college (1988-92) who had started with 1e and the younger players who started with 2e.  As 2e picked up steam, pretty much everyone I knew who was older either stuck with 1e or switched to other games in the early 90s like MERP or WoD.

The one thing I'll give it was making dragons stronger.

Quote from: Persimmon on October 02, 2023, 08:41:42 AMSeriously?  2e art was generally trash, particularly DiTerlizzi, possibly the worst artist in TSR history.

This statement alone disqualifies anything you have to say on the subject. With the possible exception of the stuff about the punch holed Monster Manual entries, which was demonstrably garbage and a moronic idea.

Post PHB/pre-WotC 2e had some of the best art in D&D ever. The only real exception was earlier edition art created by some of the big artists that also did some of the best 2e stuff, like Elmore, Parkinson and Easley. 3e/late 2e WotC era is when D&D art went downhill and turned into a self-referential plastic imitation of a copy of modern fantasy.

Is Pundit so desperate for clicks and attention he is now rehashing and recycling topics he already spoke about. Nice ttry with changing the title it still sounds like a broken record.

Imo 2E was the heyday of D&D with better art. As for splat books definitely too many yet absolutely no one had a gun to their head forcing them to use them.

Quote from: Abraxus on October 02, 2023, 09:30:45 AM
Imo 2E was the heyday of D&D with better art. As for splat books definitely too many yet absolutely no one had a gun to their head forcing them to use them.

There's a lot of "home brew" and a few splatbooks of sorts for 5E, probably more than that available for 2E if you count DM's Guild crap. The major difference is you get a table ready for a 5E game with five or six players, and those five or six players can't have a PHB-only game and will throw a hissy fit if you try to go that route, expecting EVERYTHING to be open for EVERY table.

The last 5E game I tried to run was Primeval Thule, using only the PHB classes and featuring only races described as featured in Primeval Thule. Immediately, every single player at the table said they had a "character concept" they wanted to play that was from Tasha's or Mordenkainen's - neither of which were listed in the approved tomes for character generation.

I gave up on 5E shortly after, and decided to run it with Savage Worlds instead.

I think what happened to you is hopefully the exception and not the norm. As any player who tried to demand to play a certain concept and I said core only is going to need to find another table.

It is also not limited to 5E. I saw an player in an Rifts recruitment thread refuse to join unless the GM allowed his m to play an Atlantean Demi-God while completely disregarding what was allowed at the game.

Again unless it is a con game no one has a loaded gun pointed at their head making it that they cannot say no.

Quote from: Abraxus on October 02, 2023, 10:04:45 AM
I think what happened to you is hopefully the exception and not the norm. As any player who tried to demand to play a certain concept and I said core only is going to need to find another table.

It was my home game, which is exactly why I dissolved that group...

I deeply love that derpy adventuring squad posing for their kill for some kid that they had handed a Polaroid camera to and asked him to shoot.  It has a lot going for it, including a classically dressed wizard just part of the party (other characters have abilities that you can handwave and still have them actually be realistic, a wizard posing in a bathrobe means you're actually in fantasy).

Also comparing D&D art generally to A Paladin in Hell is hardly fair.  It's excellent and evocative and is easily the best art in the AD&D 1e PHB, arguably the best art in 1e generally (and if not, it's in the top 10), and is definitely notable, having inspired later products and individuals directly.

A fast journey through the 2e PHB has some non-wussy orcs on page 92 (no way we'd see these out of Hasbro today), an out of place scenario in page 83 that would definitely not make it past any of the modern censors, and the really great polymorph on page 156.

But AD&D 2e definitely has moved towards wussification.  AD&D 1e had maximum strengths by sex and race (female halfings could never be stronger than 14 Strength; female elves 16; female humans 18/50; their male counterparts maxxed at 17, 18/75, and 18/00).  Because of the massive difference between men and women when it comes to physical strength, this is incredibly generous (Gygax even implied as much earlier in the book, writing: "You will find ... no baseless limits arbitrarily placed on female strength or male charisma", because a limit isn't baseless, he merely some of the silly limits he had seen to be baseless.  AD&D 2e made no such distinctions, generally sidestepping an attempt to provide realism out of fear of political criticism. 

I can't argue with pundit's premise. 2e really did see a lot of changes. But I, personally, liked the change from demons and devils to Baatzu and Tanari. It sounded more fantastical to me.

The assassin and half-orc thing never bothered me, I can see how it would some. In Dragonlance Kender and Gully Dwarves never bothered me, but I can see how it would some again. But a GM is GM of his or her table and can do what they want.

I do, however, take umbrage with the art critique, but eh, no skin off my teeth and not worth bitchin about.

Quote from: Abraxus on October 02, 2023, 09:30:45 AM
Is Pundit so desperate for clicks and attention he is now rehashing and recycling topics he already spoke about. Nice ttry with changing the title it still sounds like a broken record.

Imo 2E was the heyday of D&D with better art. As for splat books definitely too many yet absolutely no one had a gun to their head forcing them to use them.

Yeah, amen. I love and use a lot of splats for my 2e game. But, like you said, no one is forcing me or you.

Quote from: Spinachcat on October 02, 2023, 03:58:49 AM
2e began the wussyfication.

But 2e had the best D&D settings.

I think 2E was a weird period where they tried to get the best of both worlds for themselves. The default D&D setting definitely felt more like Kevin Costner's Robin Hood or something (very late 80s, fairly tame, somewhat generic), but the settings really got into interesting territory. In fact there have been a bunch of threads elsewhere on Dark Sun. And what is interesting is how many players who came up through 5E, or have adopted more restricted sensibilities around content, were adamantly opposed to it because it included things like slavery and cannibal halflings (there were other objections as well but can't recall them off hand). I actually went back and read the original boxed set again and was pretty struck by the quality (I had not read it since it came out but I remembered playing  in a lot of Dark Sun campaigns). I think people also had trouble grasping the tone of it---there are some lines in the boxed set I think are clearly meant to be read in a not serious way, but they sound worse if you just take them as literal statements of fact.

I started in 1986 so I definitely do recall big changes in tone. The one that leaps to my mind the most is taking out things like Assassin. There is actually an interview somewhere with RA Salvatore, where he talks about how they wanted to take out Artemis Entreri (not sure if they wanted to remove him from the novel or from a supplement that he would appear in---I know Crystal Shard came out like a year before 2E so it could have been either as I am sure they were applying changes to material in development during the lead up). And RA Salvatore basically salvaged the character by saying he wasn't an assassin but fighter/thief or something.

Definitely remember becoming aware of the whole "don't kill a pc unless they do something really stupid and deserving of death thing" around this time too.

I did like a lot of the 2E content, and I still like the 2E system, but there also was stuff Pundit mentions really becoming prominent like the metaplot and greater emphasis on GM as storyteller in general (though I think TSR had a pretty fragmented approach here with some books going that direction, some not). I also remember them chasing WW in other ways. The Ravenloft line was pretty distinct from games like Vampire or Call of Cthulhu. But as the 90s went on and White Wolf got more successful you would see WW-like elements in supplements (for example I remember one with rules for playing the monsters). The settings for me are where 2E shined

Wargamers make a game with fantasy elements. It attracts a group of people who are really into fantasy and can see how this game will allow them to play out their own fantasy novels, and other genres are immediately developed as well. This second group doesn't really like or understand wargames that much. Eventually, the second group convinces everyone that STORY >>>> GAME and then the Rubicon is crossed. The wargamers are called all sorts of nasty names and forced out of the hobby they created and the game becomes an exercise in pure sophistry and wankery. Instead of a referee, the DM/GM becomes a co-player. And it just devolves into a hellish spiral of crap from there.

I'd say the game changed as soon as DMs started giving a fuck about an overarching plot instead of actual play. So like five seconds after D&D was published?