TheRPGSite

Had a look on Amazon uk at the price of the three core books. £80 not including postage.

Ouch!

100$ for me in the as pre-ordered. I think around 30-35$ a book. Wasnt bad really for the page count and being hardback.

Compared to some other RPGs and especially some single board games, thats not a bad price.

I suppose it's cheaper than the d100 San loss that is the new edition of Unknown Armies.

It's just a bit sad they have to make this hobby so dear.

Quick googling suggests that inflation is 3x(US)-4x(UK) since 1980, and I'm pretty sure I was paying $20 a pop for the 1E hardbacks back in the 1980s. So not out of line with what we should expect, but our price sensitivity is set by the standards of long-long-ago?

D&D is free online.

As are many other RPGs.

If you want to pay nothing and own an awesome fantasy RPG, check out Mazes & Minotaurs.
http://storygame.free.fr/MAZES.htm

Quote from: Spinachcat;972768D&D is free online.

As are many other RPGs.

If you want to pay nothing and own an awesome fantasy RPG, check out Mazes & Minotaurs.
http://storygame.free.fr/MAZES.htm

Free in what sense I wonder?

Effectively the core stuff. WotC put out the core material as pdf's in a sort of SRD without art so you could just get that if you didn't want all the extras that come with the full printed material (extra classes for example).

Quote from: Biscuitician;972766I suppose it's cheaper than the d100 San loss that is the new edition of Unknown Armies.

It's just a bit sad they have to make this hobby so dear.

Hah! Yeah, I noticed that price too! Jeebus... I bought the pdfs and they were still pretty expensive.

Some of the indie or OSR stuff is still good value for money. But what really pisses me off, is when some 'unknown' releases a 'complete' game that has 100-page count and charges 17e for a pdf. That's freaking scandalous! :(

Quote from: Hermes Serpent;972770Effectively the core stuff. WotC put out the core material as pdf's in a sort of SRD without art so you could just get that if you didn't want all the extras that come with the full printed material (extra classes for example).

Yeah, you can get the Basic rules for free from their website. Comes with the four core classes (fighter, cleric, wizard, rogue) and one build option for each, mostly to reflect the "standard" character from previous editions. The hardback Player's Handbook adds in more options for those four classes and adds in several other classes (barbarian, druid, sorcerer, etc) but none of those are needed for play.

I used to think that D&D was expensive, but then I compared it to other similar products out there. It's really not that bad. I dislike paying $40 or $50 for a hardback module, but you get a LOT of play time out of a single hardback, so they really are a decent deal as well.

When it was time to get my nephews their first game books, I just got them Basic Fantasy and three adventures at a cost I could shrug at. It wasn't any attempt at instilling OSR purity in them. If they get into 5E on their own, I have no problem with it at all. I just wanted to get a bunch of ready-to-use material that also gave them a simple adventure model to emulate.

Price is a big reason I haven't tried 5E. It sounds good. It's just I have all my old D&D stuff, and it doesn't sound $100 better than what I can do already.

Quote from: Biscuitician;972749Had a look on Amazon uk at the price of the three core books. £80 not including postage.

Ouch!

Alright. Today's currency #s says $1.0 US=£0.77, so that £80 is $104. Converting that to 1974 dollars, it is the same as $20.95. Bringing that back to 2 significant digits, that's $21. The original White box D&D set had a printed-on-box price of $10. I believe Greyhawk and Blackmoor were either $5 or $10.

So, minus shipping, you're looking at the either the same as The original plus one supplement, or original plus two.  Let's skip the whole rigamarole of which edition is better and just say that based on page count, the three modern core books are significantly more material than what you would get in 1974. Even if a lot of that is bloat, you are still getting roughly the same amount of gaming material.  

So, it's mostly inflation's fault, is I guess what I am saying.

I don't know, maybe it's because I have a store in a less affluent area and with the drop in the Canadian Dollar (which is still high compared to what it was in the nineties) I feel many things are just too expensive for my customer base.  Dice aren't one of them, dice are about half what they were in 1982 when they were $6 for even a very basic set and if we apply the x3-4 on that we've got $18 - $24 while they're really $3 - $6 now.

I don't think the core rulebooks are that expensive. I especially don't think they are expensive when compared to comparable entertainment such as video games which are about $60 a pop. A player really only needs the Player's Handbook.

If you're willing to play table top role-playing games and not just play D&D, a lot of OSR products are very cheap or free on PDF. Have you looked at Palladium Fantasy? It's rulebook is like $25 on Amazon.com.

I wasn't looking to shop around.

Most other fantasy games don't really interest me anyway, or I own them.

Video games are also something that is grossly overpriced.

You could play something else. Do you already own a version of D&D? If so, just use that and keep playing for free as long as you like. I have seen no reason to buy new D&D products for almost 30 years.

Just jump off the 'latest edition' train and you'll find it's dirt cheap to play whatever you want. 5E is a pretty good game, but it isn't unique or even that special, and is not well supported (at least, compared to a number of other editions). A well thought out shopping spree of old 3E material will get you an equally good game for much less money. Used Castles and Crusades books are cheap and just as good as 5E. If you go for digital game books, you can get an OSR variant of D&D that's as good as 5E for something like 10 bucks. The 1E and 2E books are all available cheap through used book sellers, or can be found for sale cheap as pdfs.

Quote from: Baulderstone;972783When it was time to get my nephews their first game books, I just got them Basic Fantasy and three adventures at a cost I could shrug at. It wasn't any attempt at instilling OSR purity in them. If they get into 5E on their own, I have no problem with it at all. I just wanted to get a bunch of ready-to-use material that also gave them a simple adventure model to emulate.

Price is a big reason I haven't tried 5E. It sounds good. It's just I have all my old D&D stuff, and it doesn't sound $100 better than what I can do already.

Yup, I've also given away several copies of Basic Fantasy because it is cheap (dirt cheap), clearly written, and playable. It contains the essential rules and concepts of D&D without the clutter.  It doesn't exactly inspire me, but its been a great starting point for some broke, enthusiastic kids.

I own 5e, but it seems altogether unnecessary so it doesn't get played.  I've read it. I'm sure its just fine, but I've got shelves of older edition material + another shelf and a half of OSR material- not to mention dozens of other games. 5e just sits there. Its a game I never asked for, wanted or needed.  I only own it out some sense of completeness.

Quote from: Dumarest;972807You could play something else. Do you already own a version of D&D? If so, just use that and keep playing for free as long as you like. I have seen no reason to buy new D&D products for almost 30 years.

I've never owned nor played it. I thought it might be interested to do so.

Quote from: Biscuitician;972817I've never owned nor played it. I thought it might be interested to do so.

I see. Your best bet would be either finding the best discount you can, which is usually Amazon, if you want new books, or maybe trying to find them secondhand in good shape, if you're set on getting the latest edition. Otherwise I'd suggest trying one of the "clones" that are either free or inexpensive,  but that would not be the latest edition. I haven't seen or played 5th (or 3rd or 4th,  for that matter), but from what I read and hear it's not much different from the early versions.

Quote from: Biscuitician;972769Free in what sense I wonder?

Well, in every sense of the word. All Mazes & Minotaurs stuff is, has always been and will always be 100% FREE and non-profit; no hidden catch, no strings attached. Just check it out (and stop wondering :D ).

OD&D was ten bucks in 1974. I was still a toddler at the time, but older friends tell me that was considered crazy expensive for a boxed "Wargame" of the era.

WotC and the various OSR publishers have actually been very generous about putting no-art free versions of their stuff online. A kid today could enter the hobby with no more investment than buying a set of dice.

Quote from: Dumarest;972807You could play something else. Do you already own a version of D&D? If so, just use that and keep playing for free as long as you like. I have seen no reason to buy new D&D products for almost 30 years.

Well sure, but it was DnD that I was specifically interested in.

That's not a comment on it or other games

Quote from: Naburimannu;972767Quick googling suggests that inflation is 3x(US)-4x(UK) since 1980, and I'm pretty sure I was paying $20 a pop for the 1E hardbacks back in the 1980s. So not out of line with what we should expect, but our price sensitivity is set by the standards of long-long-ago?

You're mistaken. The AD&D 1st edition core books were $12 to $15, or even cheaper. While hidden, in the later books the MSRP is embedded in the item code. Which in my copy of the Monster Manual II (1983) is on the back cover below the ISBN, and says 394-53519-OTSR1200. Those last 4 digits are the price, $12.00. This jumps to $15.00 in later books, for instance the Manual of the Planes (1987). And it doesn't appear on the PH, DMG, or MM, so they may have been even less expensive (inflation was in the 2 digits between 1979 and 1981, thanks to the tail end of stagflation, so prices jumped pretty frequently). Converting to 2014 dollars, the MM2 becomes $28.52 and the MotP is $31.26. Comparatively, $20 in 1989 (2e) becomes $38.18, and $30 in 2000 (3e) becomes $41.24 (yes, the 3e PH was initially released at $20, but that was a promo price for the first printing). The 1e books are clearly the cheapest, though they are in black and white and much thinner. The 2e and 3e books are comparable. The 5e books (2014) at $50/each are more expensive, but not excessively so. You can make a good argument that RPG books have been underpriced, and inflation calculators don't adjust for specific changes like the hike in the price of paper or the size of print runs. And with online retailers, it's a lot easier to get a discount than it was in the 1980s or 1990s. For instance, the 5e PH is currently $30.77 on Amazon, which is 1e-era pricing. Except the 5e book is much thicker, and full color.

Quote from: Biscuitician;972836Well sure, but it was DnD that I was specifically interested in.

That's not a comment on it or other games

There are free versions of D&D. 5th edition has a basic set version as PDF that is 100% free and you could play fully without ever needing anything else (the full priced version has the advantage of being dead-tree, and offers more options. However, none of them are at all necessary. I know I played the first 6 years of my gaming life with just humans, dwarves, elves, and halflings, and just fighters, clerics, thieves (rogues) and magic users (wizards); there's absolutely no reasons you need bards, warlocks, half-orcs, or tieflings.

Previous versions of D&D have things out there called retroclones. They are effectively the same game (or so close that you would likely not notice the difference), but with the serial numbers filed off. Many of them are free or pay-what-you-want.

Either of those help?

Quote from: Pat;972840*snip*

Thanks for doing all that work and summing up why any time I see an "OMG so expensive!" comment, my immediate response is just to roll my eyes. So that I didn't have to. Seriously, I have an inflation adjustment calculator saved to my bookmarks for occasions such as these. ;)

Something is only expensive if you find it isn't worth what it cost you. Has nothing to do with a dollar price at all.

Quote from: Ulairi;972800I don't think the core rulebooks are that expensive. I especially don't think they are expensive when compared to comparable entertainment such as video games which are about $60 a pop. A player really only needs the Player's Handbook.

If you're willing to play table top role-playing games and not just play D&D, a lot of OSR products are very cheap or free on PDF. Have you looked at Palladium Fantasy? It's rulebook is like $25 on Amazon.com.

I went to pick up shadows of Brimstone, a board game, last year. The price was 100$ Another 100 for the second, and 30-50 each for the expansions. That was just too much.

That is kinda at the extreme though. Arkham Horror is around 50$. (I got mine in trade for 5e Dungeon. 20$)

Quote from: Omega;972863I went to pick up shadows of Brimstone, a board game, last year. The price was 100$ Another 100 for the second, and 30-50 each for the expansions. That was just too much.

That is kinda at the extreme though. Arkham Horror is around 50$. (I got mine in trade for 5e Dungeon. 20$)

Board games are like TTRPGs in that MSRP is a sucker's bargain.  Shadows is easily available (when in print) for ~$68 a core set, and 30% or more off of the expansions too.  The trick is finding it in stock.  (right now it seems most vendors don't have any copies of the core sets, but I expect new ones to come in shortly)  (EDIT: also, SoB is possibly one of the better games out there in that it plays well solo, so you don't need a group for it.  It's possibly one of the worse games out there in that it's a "hobby" game and you have to assemble the minis yourself, which may be fun for you so YMMV)

As for TTRPGs....  All the talk of rising word counts and increasing production values misses the point: for games you may never play, they -are- expensive.  But the more you actually use the material, the more cost effective they become.  $10 for a book you never use is far more expensive than $100 for a game you play for years.

The core books seem very reasonable to me at $30-$40 each through Amazon. Considering that Amazon gets a %, and they have to cover their own shipping and stocking (not sure their methodology at Amazon, but there are costs there), they don't seem very greedy to me. The quality is good without throwing in a bunch of glitz to help jack up the cover price.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;972841There are free versions of D&D. 5th edition has a basic set version as PDF that is 100% free and you could play fully without ever needing anything else (the full priced version has the advantage of being dead-tree, and offers more options. However, none of them are at all necessary. I know I played the first 6 years of my gaming life with just humans, dwarves, elves, and halflings, and just fighters, clerics, thieves (rogues) and magic users (wizards); there's absolutely no reasons you need bards, warlocks, half-orcs, or tieflings.

Previous versions of D&D have things out there called retroclones. They are effectively the same game (or so close that you would likely not notice the difference), but with the serial numbers filed off. Many of them are free or pay-what-you-want.

Either of those help?

Not really.

I'm talking specifically. ABout DnD. In print.

So what do you think three full color 300 page+ letter page sized hardbacks should be priced at?

Quote from: estar;972874So what do you think three full color 300 page+ letter page sized hardbacks should be priced at?

No idea.

Why does it need to be 3?

Quote from: Willie the Duck;972787Alright. Today's currency #s says $1.0 US=£0.77, so that £80 is $104. Converting that to 1974 dollars, it is the same as $20.95. Bringing that back to 2 significant digits, that's $21. The original White box D&D set had a printed-on-box price of $10. I believe Greyhawk and Blackmoor were either $5 or $10.

So, minus shipping, you're looking at the either the same as The original plus one supplement, or original plus two.  Let's skip the whole rigamarole of which edition is better and just say that based on page count, the three modern core books are significantly more material than what you would get in 1974. Even if a lot of that is bloat, you are still getting roughly the same amount of gaming material.  

So, it's mostly inflation's fault, is I guess what I am saying.

What he said.

Quote from: GeekEclectic;972844Thanks for doing all that work and summing up why any time I see an "OMG so expensive!" comment, my immediate response is just to roll my eyes. So that I didn't have to. Seriously, I have an inflation adjustment calculator saved to my bookmarks for occasions such as these. ;)

You're welcome, though I think my conclusions are slightly different.

From a value per entertainment hour, RPG books are an almost impossible bargain. You've probably played thousands of hours of your favorite game, so compare the $150 for a set of books to the price of say 1,000 movies. RPGs are a crazy-good deal, by that standard. Though in practice, it's not really that a good deal, because RPG owners tend to be collectors. Not in the Acaeum sense, but in the "new shiny!" sense. Which is why the supplement treadmill exists, and it's what keeps publishers in business. Because if we just bought books we needed, then there simply wouldn't be an RPG industry. So it becomes closer to a magazine subscription, something we buy just to read and occasionally use. Not to mention that the price of luxuries is pretty arbitrary. Just because you'll pay so much for a 2 hour movies, doesn't mean you'll spend the same for a book that takes you the same amount of time to read.

It's still a great deal, though. But on the other side, there's definitely an entry fee. That initial $150 is up front not over time, and it's a reasonable sized chunk of money. Not enough to deter anyone with a good job, but above the impulse buy threshold for many newbies, especially those with less discretionary income. And that's a group that's more likely to pay full retail, because they're less likely to buy sight unseen. That's moderated by the huge amounts of information available on the web, though that can be intimidating. The existences of cheap starter sets, and the omnipresent free online quick starts, not to mention SRDs and retroclones, of course all help to reduce that barrier.

On a slightly negative note, I personally don't think the newer books are a better value than the older books. They're certainly much bigger for the same price point, and in full color. But I don't really care about color. It's an RPG, not an art book. Fancy graphics is just marketing, not content. And size? The B/X books, at 64 pages each, were marvels of brevity. The 400-page tomes of today are excessively wordy, and contain all kinds of stuff I don't care about. That actually diminishes the value to me, because it takes more effort to wade through (and I have less time). And when it comes to physical features I think add real value, sometimes the old books are superior. For instance, the Smythe-sewn 1st edition hardcovers.

Quote from: Biscuitician;972875No idea.

Why does it need to be 3?

Because that's what YOU established as the baseline in your OP?

"Had a look on Amazon uk at the price of the three core books. £80 not including postage."

Quote from: estar;972874So what do you think three full color 300 page+ letter page sized hardbacks should be priced at?

Whatever people will pay. For me, that's zero; for others it may be $50 each.

Everything is more expensive. Why anyone would somehow think that rpgs would be the exception is not only being naive. Is being naive on purpose imo. I don't get gamers in the hobby it's as if they don't know inflation let alone basic economics. Usually it's the same people that have the latest smartphone, Ipad and gaming consoles. While getting their three meals at restaurants. From what I can see as a outsider and gamer looking in. Your not going to get a full colour hardback with decent production valuesfor less than 40-45$ Or to put it another way beyond some exceptions one is not going to get tomorrow rpgs now at yesterday prices.

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;972831OD&D was ten bucks in 1974. I was still a toddler at the time, but older friends tell me that was considered crazy expensive for a boxed "Wargame" of the era.

Avalon Hill's most expensive game, 'Third Reich', was $10 in 1974, 'Waterloo' and 'Stalingrad' were $7, 'Panzerblitz' was $9.  
Avalon Hill games were of much much higher production quality than any of the TSR box sets.

Just wait until 6th edition then buy the 5th edition retroclone for $20.  :P
A friend just started a 2e campaign and I bought my entire family of four "For Gold and Glory" rulebooks for less than $45 shipped.

D&D books are too expensive. I can buy retroclones and OSR stuff from LULU for less than half the cost of a 5e book. Granted there's a lot to sift thru, and much of it rehashes (if better organized) of older texts. A lot of the art is public domain, but it's quite good. There's some great design work coming out from small press.

Cubicle 7's AiME books are just as fancy as WotC's and cost $10 less.

I don't need fancy glossy pages and color pictures. There's nothing wrong with them, I do like art, but I can do without it in an otherwise excellent rulebook.

I guess it depends on the condition, and possibly the print/cover version. My 3 AD&D core books ran around $15.00 each, all readable/usable but probably non collectible condition. The monster Manual was the 2nd cover from '83, the binding is TERRIBLE which is keeping me from grabbing a copy of UA.

Quote from: Angry_Douchebag;972889Because that's what YOU established as the baseline in your OP?

"Had a look on Amazon uk at the price of the three core books. £80 not including postage."

No, you misunderstsnd me. I meant why does that have gone the format for the content involved? Why not a smaller softback format as well?

Cause money. People need to make it.

Quote from: Robyo;972943D&D books are too expensive. I can buy retroclones and OSR stuff from LULU for less than half the cost of a 5e book. Granted there's a lot to sift thru, and much of it rehashes (if better organized) of older texts. A lot of the art is public domain, but it's quite good. There's some great design work coming out from small press.

Cubicle 7's AiME books are just as fancy as WotC's and cost $10 less.

I don't need fancy glossy pages and color pictures. There's nothing wrong with them, I do like art, but I can do without it in an otherwise excellent rulebook.

I'm not opposed to other fantasy games, my post was simply about DnD.

I also haven't found alternative fantasy games that appeal to me. Pathfinder is just DnD 3.5 and until Starfinder releases I'm not interested. Shadow of the Demon Lord is a bit...meh. Symbaroum is just a big forest. Esteren isn't grabbing me, neither does 13th Age - possibly.

DnD might not seem terribly different to any of those but it's the big daddy and that's one of the reasons I was interested. But not interested enough to pay £80

Quote from: Biscuitician;972875No idea.

Why does it need to be 3?

A book with purely player content that only players need to purchase.
A book with only GM content that only GM's need to buy.
A book that contains all the creatures needed to play the game.

If it was one 900 page book the cost would be horrendous, not to mention the weight. Plus the GM would not then be able to hide monster stats from players and the players having the GM's guide would know who or what is behind the curtain.

Quote from: Pat;972840You're mistaken. The AD&D 1st edition core books were $12 to $15, or even cheaper. While hidden, in the later books the MSRP is embedded in the item code. Which in my copy of the Monster Manual II (1983) is on the back cover below the ISBN, and says 394-53519-OTSR1200. Those last 4 digits are the price, $12.00. This jumps to $15.00 in later books, for instance the Manual of the Planes (1987). And it doesn't appear on the PH, DMG, or MM, so they may have been even less expensive (inflation was in the 2 digits between 1979 and 1981, thanks to the tail end of stagflation, so prices jumped pretty frequently). Converting to 2014 dollars, the MM2 becomes $28.52 and the MotP is $31.26. Comparatively, $20 in 1989 (2e) becomes $38.18, and $30 in 2000 (3e) becomes $41.24 (yes, the 3e PH was initially released at $20, but that was a promo price for the first printing). The 1e books are clearly the cheapest, though they are in black and white and much thinner. The 2e and 3e books are comparable. The 5e books (2014) at $50/each are more expensive, but not excessively so. You can make a good argument that RPG books have been underpriced, and inflation calculators don't adjust for specific changes like the hike in the price of paper or the size of print runs. And with online retailers, it's a lot easier to get a discount than it was in the 1980s or 1990s. For instance, the 5e PH is currently $30.77 on Amazon, which is 1e-era pricing. Except the 5e book is much thicker, and full color.

Go by page count and production quality and the new stuff is a vastly superior deal.

Quote from: Hermes Serpent;972964A book with purely player content that only players need to purchase.
A book with only GM content that only GM's need to buy.
A book that contains all the creatures needed to play the game.

If it was one 900 page book the cost would be horrendous, not to mention the weight. Plus the GM would not then be able to hide monster stats from players and the players having the GM's guide would know who or what is behind the curtain.

False dichotomy. There are other ways to provide the info surely than the 3 book format they have chosen.

Quote from: Biscuitician;972974False dichotomy. There are other ways to provide the info surely than the 3 book format they have chosen.

Well fuck you. I was trying to be helpful but you just pissed me right off so you can go screw yourself.

Quote from: Hermes Serpent;972976Well fuck you. I was trying to be helpful but you just pissed me right off so you can go screw yourself.

You're offended by what I said to the extent you needed to post and be abusive?? :O

The average cost of a movie ticket is about nine bucks, for about a ninety minute movie.  Nine cents a minute for entertainment.

At the same rate it takes only 28 hours of reading and playing to pay for a full set of D&D books.

Quote from: DavetheLost;972988The average cost of a movie ticket is about nine bucks, for about a ninety minute movie.  Nine cents a minute for entertainment.

At the same rate it takes only 28 hours of reading and playing to pay for a full set of D&D books.

That's fine, but it's not really going to be a pertinent analysis if you can't afford it to begin with. DnD may give me all the entertainment value in the world, but £80 is still £80

It is pertinent. You just can't dismiss others saying that their are more expensive things to spend money on simply because D&D is expensive. While I agree to some extent that the books are. Going out to eat a decent quality meal will set one back at least 30-40$ if not more. If one is lucky maybe in the 20-25$ range. If a person goes out to eat 2-3 times a week it can get expensive. Hell going to Starbucks everyday can get expensive. Now if one buys the core set and lets it rot on the shelf than the money spent is wasted. If they play on a semi-regular-regular basis they get their money back as they are using the product. Food and coffee tends to be flushed away the next day.

Quote from: Biscuitician;972974False dichotomy. There are other ways to provide the info surely than the 3 book format they have chosen.

Yes and no.

Sure they could have gone the Pathfinder route with the PHB and DMG yet unless one buys it from Amazon the price will only be slightly less expensive. Publishers are not stupid in that even if the format should make the book cheaper they still will charge as much as they think people will pay for it.

Size is a factor. Just ask Hero Games where their 6E was so dense a read and big that it scared off some interested in the rpg. Gamers usually don't want big books. More importantly if I'm a player and I don't want or need the information on how to run a game. All I need is the information needed on being a player.

Tradition I think plays a part. D&D from 1E onwards always had a PHB, DMG and MM. Don't underestimate the nostalgia factor.

Quote from: Biscuitician;972974False dichotomy. There are other ways to provide the info surely than the 3 book format they have chosen.

Products are priced based on market expectations and the price people are willing to pay. Changing your format means changing your formula - which is always a risk if you've already established expectations in the market. (A)D&D has followed a specific, three book format. It set similar expectations for the market, though companies have broken with that (typically from the start).

The three book format works really well. You lower the relative cost-of-entry by making the player book affordable, and the other books optional. Assuming the GM is willing to make a greater investment, the other books are 'less' optional. And better, the more they invest in 'stuff', the more likely they are to buy your other 'stuff'  that is more optional.

There are also some physical limitations in working with books, based on their size and weight.

There are a lot of ways you can ship a product, especially now with all the different digital formats. But there are fewer ways for companies to do it sensibly based on their customer base.

Quote from: Biscuitician;972974False dichotomy. There are other ways to provide the info surely than the 3 book format they have chosen.

Yes there may be other ways, but the three core book format is D&D way, and stop calling us shirley.

Quote from: Biscuitician;972993That's fine, but it's not really going to be a pertinent analysis if you can't afford it to begin with. DnD may give me all the entertainment value in the world, but £80 is still £80

Then don't fucking buy it. Find a cheaper game. There have been plenty of suggestions offered for much less expenses sources of entertainment but you are only interested in bitching. You could have been playing something by now.

Well... Adjusted for inflation, D&D is not expensive at all, especially compared to other forms of enterntainment.

in 1977 I paid $10 for the white bookset, $8 for a Holmes Bluebook Boxed set, and 2.99 for Judges Guild ready Ref Sheets. Gamma World was $10 in 1978, Traveller Black Box was $10 in 1977, Highguard & Mercenary were $3.50 each. A movie Ticket cost $2.25 or $1.50 for a Matinee showing. Minimum wage was $2.30 hr. You could get a good use car for $1,000 and an awesome new car for $7,000

Today, D&D 5e is free (I have the PDFs which are printed), 5e DMG $35. 5e PHB $39.99, 5e Monster Manual  $35. 1e DMG $15. 1e PHB $16, 1e Monster Manual  $20.  3e DMG $8.75 3e PHB $7, 3e Monster Manual  $10. so $50 or so for a 1e set and $25 or so for D&D 3e.
Movie Ticket $6 or $4 for a matinee (Prices have actually come down in the last year! Probably due to a lack of attendence). Minimum wage is $7.25-$12.50 depending on where you live in the U.S. so 3x inflation since 1977 for stuff is norm. Now you can get a good used car for $15,000 and a decent new car for $30,000 cash. So used cars are 7-15x more expensive and new cars are 4x more expensive than they used to be and at least 1.33x more expensive now then they were in 1977 after adjusting for inflation.

What is stupidly expensive is the original books....
D&D 74 White Bookset today would be $30 retail but it is out of print so a good copy goes for 10x as much @ $300 right now
Original Gamma World 1e also out of print, retails for around $95 now or 9.5x it's original retail price
Picked up a used copy of Traveller 1e black box a couple months back for $35 so only slightly inflated @ 3.5x its original price.
Rules Cyclopedia 1987 $12 and now $60- $100 so 5-6x more expensive than original.

D&D 5e hardbacks are about 5x more expensive than the white bookset and 2x more expensive than 1e when it was released. Much higher quality artwork though, and the new books are several magnitudes of size larger than the original white bookset and has almost 2x as much content, pagewise, as the 1e books.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;973010There have been plenty of suggestions offered for much less expenses sources of entertainment but you are only interested in bitching. You could have been playing something by now.

Pretty much. Numerous suggestions made, some for free, all rejected = not actually interested in playing.

The last time they experimented with alternative inexpensive formatting, it went ... poorly. (4E Essentials.) Now, there are a whole lot of reasons aside from the formatting it may not have done well, such as losing about half of your targeted retailer market just as you launch it :), but between that and the self-conscious traditionalism of 5E, the 3-book hardcover formatting was pretty much a given.

  I raised the same concerns about entry-level price point when we first heard about them back in the day (I started quite the kerfuffle about it on both EN World and TBP), but a) those concerns were alleviated by the robust Starter Set and Basic options, and b) history has shown the game to be a success despite that.

Quote from: Hermes Serpent;972964... the players having the GM's guide would know who or what is behind the curtain.

Is that so bad? Don't most of us play and DM? I've been of the mind in the past that maybe more DM material should be in the PHB. In addition, 900 pages includes a lot of filler. I mentioned "For Gold and Glory" earlier; a 2nd ed retroclone. The rulebook, which contains all of the rules, as well as 140 monsters, weighs in at 370 pages and less than $8 on lulu.com. It's possible to do.

Now, I am not saying 5th edition should only cost $8. A retroclone takes very little in the way of paying developers, commissioning art, playtesting, advertising, merchandising, etc. And I can't fault 5th ed. for the free SRD, though it is very stripped down. What I would like Hasbro to do is maybe release their own softcover, black and white, low art rules compendium after a year or two after a new edition drops. It would certainly be easier to get new players and especially DMs into the game.

Part of the appeal is that DnD is the most popular and (hopefully) well supported game. I like that. I could be persuaded by 13th age, which i might check out tomorrow, but DnD has that pedigree. Unfair? Perhaps.

It doesn't really matter since that's the product I was interested in and that's it's price. Nevre really understood why the DM needs an entirely separate book though - one that doesn't contain a bestiary.

It would be interesting to see WotC experiment with alternative formats through the DM's Guild and their PoD service. But I'm partially saying that because I would love to see the Japanese Rules Cyclopedia (http://mystara.thorf.co.uk/jrc.php) published with English text. A pipe dream, I know. :)

Quote from: Biscuitician;973036Part of the appeal is that DnD is the most popular and (hopefully) well supported game. I like that. I could be persuaded by 13th age, which i might check out tomorrow, but DnD has that pedigree. Unfair? Perhaps.

It doesn't really matter since that's the product I was interested in and that's it's price. Never really understood why the DM needs an entirely separate book though - one that doesn't contain a bestiary.

So you're dead set on 5th edition? There have been many D&D versions that built that pedigree you mentioned, and almost all can be had from fairly inexpensive to free if you know what you are looking for.

If you are looking for modules/adventures, it can be a bit trickier. But, if you want to build your own campaign and world, you're in great shape, and to me that is much more rewarding experience. It's also a reason many groups stick with older editions of D&D rather than converting; they have a campaign and world they have been playing in for decades!

Quote from: Biscuitician;973036Nevre really understood why the DM needs an entirely separate book though - one that doesn't contain a bestiary.

It's not that hard to understand. As a player I don't need or want the information needed to run the game let alone the Bestiary. Big all in one books tend to be heavy to carry. Big all on one books need to be bound properly. My first printing of the Pathfinder core starting falling apart after moderate use.

I may be misremembering but doesn't the 1st edition DMG include monsters in the back around where the various treasures are listed ?

Quote from: Dumarest;973068I may be misremembering but doesn't the 1st edition DMG include monsters in the back around where the various treasures are listed ?

Yes the 1E DMG has the quick reference stat blocks in appendix E The alphabetical recapitulation of monsters with XP values. Full details about the creatures are not provided here, just basic stat blocks.

Quote from: Harlock;973041So you're dead set on 5th edition? There have been many D&D versions that built that pedigree you mentioned, and almost all can be had from fairly inexpensive to free if you know what you are looking for.

If you are looking for modules/adventures, it can be a bit trickier. But, if you want to build your own campaign and world, you're in great shape, and to me that is much more rewarding experience. It's also a reason many groups stick with older editions of D&D rather than converting; they have a campaign and world they have been playing in for decades!

i'm not dead set on anything. I just fancied acquiring 'the' rpg.

Since I cannae afford it, it's all moot anyways :D

though i might have a gander at 13th Age tomorrow.

I have always fancied owning a cracking classic fantasy rpg of some description (except half orcs, fuck half orcs, they are beyond stupid).

Quote from: Biscuitician;973089i'm not dead set on anything. I just fancied acquiring 'the' rpg.

Since I cannae afford it, it's all moot anyways :D

though i might have a gander at 13th Age tomorrow.

I have always fancied owning a cracking classic fantasy rpg of some description (except half orcs, fuck half orcs, they are beyond stupid).

I'm not sure 5th edition is "the" RPG. I bet one of BECMI, AD&D, AD&D2e, or D&D3e, etc. might have been more popular than 5e. Honestly, I think that would almost have to be the case. Check out Basic Fantasy Roleplaying Game, OSRIC, Labyrinth Lord, For Gold and Glory and other retroclones. They are D&D in all but name only and modules and supplements meant for the original systems fit rather seamlessly into them. If you have to play the latest and greatest, well, you have your answer already.

Quote from: Biscuitician;973089i'm not dead set on anything. I just fancied acquiring 'the' rpg.

Since I cannae afford it, it's all moot anyways :D

though i might have a gander at 13th Age tomorrow.

I have always fancied owning a cracking classic fantasy rpg of some description (except half orcs, fuck half orcs, they are beyond stupid).

Get Moldvay Marsh/Cook B/X rulebooks for about $10.00 US from D&D classics then get them POD for few bucks and there you have it- classic D&D without any damn half orcs.

Quote from: Biscuitician;972978You're offended by what I said to the extent you needed to post and be abusive?? :O

Hermes reaction was probably an overreaction, but you did go with countering his point by listing logical fallacies. That's a pretty common forum shorthand for 'this just turned into an argument I intend to win' instead of a discussion. Both of you could have been more diplomatic, but it seems to have worked itself out.

Quote from: Biscuitician;972962I'm not opposed to other fantasy games, my post was simply about DnD.

I also haven't found alternative fantasy games that appeal to me. Pathfinder is just DnD 3.5 and until Starfinder releases I'm not interested. Shadow of the Demon Lord is a bit...meh. Symbaroum is just a big forest. Esteren isn't grabbing me, neither does 13th Age - possibly.

DnD might not seem terribly different to any of those but it's the big daddy and that's one of the reasons I was interested. But not interested enough to pay £80

Then there's an impasse, since we cannot change the price of the game. We've provided a few explanations as to the why, and most of them boil down to 'that's how they make their money.' As to why they have it in the separate Player, DM, and Monster book format (and why not another), it probably is also because that's what they've determined will net them the highest return (plus corporate/fan-expectation inertia). However, they have experimented with other formats. The Rules Cyclopedia was an entire game system in one book. The Holmes D&D set was also a compilation of Player, DM, and Monster material, all in one book. It was only for levels 1-3 though. B/X and BECMI D&D had Player, DM, and Monster material all in one product, although player and DM/Monster material were separated into different books. These followed the Holmes model of splitting the sets into different level bands. So they have tried other formats, and settled on the method they are using now a while ago (last counter-example being over 25 years ago).

Other than that, people's other advice has been good, if not perhaps useful to your exact needs. If you want a legally acquired, dead-tree copy of the current (and thus hard to find used) version of a specific piece of intellectual property, you kind of have to pay them what they want you to pay them.

Beyond that, the best advice I might give is to go to a local open game night and try playing the game with someone who already owns the game. Maybe that will show you that it would be worth £80 to you (or absolutely not worth it, and then good to know before you spend anything).

Quote from: Harlock;973028Is that so bad?

Don't most of us play and DM?

1: Yes. It can spoil the "surprise" factor of an encounter. It can reveal secrets of defeating a monster. The player may start gaming the system more. etc. It may force the DM to change the monsters which in the end pretty much made having a monster section useless. And so on.

2: No. Not at all. The vast majority are players and those who like to DM are the lesser number by far. Alot of players just do not want to DM or are just not up for the task. This is why some groups literally FORCE members to DM or they arent allowed to play as a player.

Quote from: Biscuitician;973036Part of the appeal is that DnD is the most popular and (hopefully) well supported game. I like that. I could be persuaded by 13th age, which i might check out tomorrow, but DnD has that pedigree. Unfair? Perhaps.

It doesn't really matter since that's the product I was interested in and that's it's price. Nevre really understood why the DM needs an entirely separate book though - one that doesn't contain a bestiary.

Why should magic items, terrain and other DM knowlege things be in the PHB? Its just useless clutter. Or is stuff the player should not know about until they encounter it.

As for the seperation of the monsters into their own book. Ease of refference. All in one books tend to be bulky, sometimes too bulky. And unweildy past a certain thickness. Theres also the printing issue. Thicker books have some inherint problems. Not really a boon. But to me its also nice to have the DMG open to some secion and the MM open to another sometimes. And personally the books are heavy enough as is. Combining the GMG and MM would make it a pain to lug around or leaf through.

Also having to books split up allows for more art. YMMV there. Personally Im fine with less. But most modern bigger publishers have it in their head that the art sells the book despite that not being true.

Could 5e have been compressed down to 1 book? Sure. But it would be walls of text and little to no art.

Quote from: sureshot;973064It's not that hard to understand. As a player I don't need or want the information needed to run the game let alone the Bestiary. Big all in one books tend to be heavy to carry. Big all on one books need to be bound properly. My first printing of the Pathfinder core starting falling apart after moderate use.

Another bonus of splitting the books is...

The players just need to buy just the PHB. Meaning entry level for a player is just 35$ (or 50 retail) This leaves the rest to the DM to foot. Though of course some DMs foot for all three.

Another bonus is with split books is I can hand the PHB to a player to reference while Im leafing through the DMG. An all in one book means you have to pass it around. Or everyone needs a copy. In which case the cost just jumped back to as if the game were split.

Quote from: Omega;9731561: Yes. It can spoil the "surprise" factor of an encounter. It can reveal secrets of defeating a monster. The player may start gaming the system more. etc. It may force the DM to change the monsters which in the end pretty much made having a monster section useless. And so on.

2: No. Not at all. The vast majority are players and those who like to DM are the lesser number by far. Alot of players just do not want to DM or are just not up for the task. This is why some groups literally FORCE members to DM or they arent allowed to play as a player.

Wow. I have been very fortunate then in my RPG tenure. There's usually a dearth players and a line of GMs wanting to run this or that game, system or campaign. I'm considering asking one of my current groups, the DM specifically, if he'd mind alternating weeks with me running my campaign.

I've never bought the idea that players need a copy of anything, really, or even to know the rules for that matter.  I've had plenty of games with guys who've never owned the game at hand, especially when the game is out of print, but it never fazed anyone that I can recall.  Pretty much they just wanted to know, "What do I need to roll to do XYZ?" and "Is that in range of my ABC?"

And when my friends and I were even poorer than we are now we often bought different games and shared, so there might be just one copy of the PHB between five or six guys. Was never a problem, we just passed it around if someone needed to check a rule.

Quote from: Dumarest;973173I've never bought the idea that players need a copy of anything, really, or even to know the rules for that matter.  I've had plenty of games with guys who've never owned the game at hand, especially when the game is out of print, but it never fazed anyone that I can recall.  Pretty much they just wanted to know, "What do I need to roll to do XYZ?" and "Is that in range of my ABC?"

And when my friends and I were even poorer than we are now we often bought different games and shared, so there might be just one copy of the PHB between five or six guys. Was never a problem, we just passed it around if someone needed to check a rule.

I remember those days very well. In fact, the current 2e campaign I am in is like that, though I think everyone will be picking up a retroclone or browsing used books soon. D&D2e is pretty cheap. They sold a lot of those books.

I'm still living it. I gave my friend a copy of Flashing Blades a few years back for Christmas or his birthday but I don't think he ever read it and he certainly never brings it to a session.  The other games on the slate are all ones only I have a copy of: Merc, James Bond 007, maybe Daredevils, hopefully 1977 Traveller, possibly The Fantasy Trip. I have a couple of copies of 007 and Traveller but it's unusual in my circle for anyone to ask to borrow one. Actually I kind of prefer it sometimes when the players don't know chapter and verse of the rulebooks as there is no disputing my judgment calls or mistakes during a session.  Playing less popular games is obviously a factor but I've just never felt the call of D&D.

Quote from: Dumarest;973182Playing less popular games is obviously a factor but I've just never felt the call of D&D.

I've played a lot of less to flat out unpopular games myself. There's no shame in not having felt the call of the masses for "the most popular roleplaying game in the world" or however the retroclones phrase it. I've played many of games that were better than D&D for me and my groups. I've enjoyed some heavily homebrewed (read neutered) D&D campaigns as well. It just seems D&D is the gateway drug and some people are content puffing it while others look to mainline something harder.

In that case I've  got a spoonful of crack melting over a lighter and my eyes are yellow and my skin is sallow and my buddy is dozing in a threadbare armchair next to the stack of stolen electronics.

The funny thing is that 13th Age that the Op extols the virtues of while fairly complete also has material spread over more than just the core. If one wants more classes with some rules clarifications and better explanations of some stuff in the core. Then one needs 13 True ways. The Bestiary in the core while decent is expanded upon in the 13th Age Bestiary. Both go for for 40$ in US funds on their site. So it's cheaper but by much.

As others have said - it's inflation - which has hit books somewhat harder than other products due to the increased cost of paper in the 90's. (I've read that it was mostly due to the late 80's & early 90's being when environmentalists were able to start limiting where lumber was harvested a lot more - which raised wood prices.)

It reminds me of my mom talking about how gas used to cost a buck or two to fill up her car & she could go to the movies for a quarter.

Quote from: Omega;973164Another bonus of splitting the books is...

The players just need to buy just the PHB. Meaning entry level for a player is just 35$ (or 50 retail) This leaves the rest to the DM to foot. Though of course some DMs foot for all three.

One possible price-reducing approach is to just buy a PHB, and use the monsters and magic items from the SRD (the Basic rules also have lots of monsters but skimp on the items), printing out the bits you need. From the player POV they get the complete game, and it's 1/3 the price.

Quote from: sureshot;973209The funny thing is that 13th Age that the Op extols the virtues of while fairly complete also has material spread over more than just the core. If one wants more classes with some rules clarifications and better explanations of some stuff in the core. Then one needs 13 True ways. The Bestiary in the core while decent is expanded upon in the 13th Age Bestiary. Both go for for 40$ in US funds on their site. So it's cheaper but by much.

If that's true then I
M not keen on that either

Quote from: S'mon;973234One possible price-reducing approach is to just buy a PHB, and use the monsters and magic items from the SRD (the Basic rules also have lots of monsters but skimp on the items), printing out the bits you need. From the player POV they get the complete game, and it's 1/3 the price.

Not a bad idea. But I'm too vain for such common sense

How about we all come over and beat you unconscious with our D&D hardcovers? Maybe that would resolve your conundrum?

Quote from: Dumarest;973173I've never bought the idea that players need a copy of anything, really, or even to know the rules for that matter.

I agree with this. For years I ran various editions of D&D with players who didn't own the ruleboks and weren't ready to out-quote rules on me. I liked it a lot better than the early AD&D days where my players knew the rulebooks better than I did.

Nowadays when I go to play at 5E Adventurer's League games at the local store I find players who never DM but own the DMG just to memorize what all of the magic items do, and know the monsters in the MM by heart. I think that takes a lot of the fun and "wonder" out of the game because it's neat to discover some new magic item or to be surprised by some monster's unusual ability or weakness. These guys suck all of that fun out of the game, IMO.

Quote from: finarvyn;973248I agree with this. For years I ran various editions of D&D with players who didn't own the ruleboks and weren't ready to out-quote rules on me. I liked it a lot better than the early AD&D days where my players knew the rulebooks better than I did.

Nowadays when I go to play at 5E Adventurer's League games at the local store I find players who never DM but own the DMG just to memorize what all of the magic items do, and know the monsters in the MM by heart. I think that takes a lot of the fun and "wonder" out of the game because it's neat to discover some new magic item or to be surprised by some monster's unusual ability or weakness. These guys suck all of that fun out of the game, IMO.

Which is why I still prefer running homebrew games and campaigns. I like to add in unique, varied, and interesting stuff that isn't in the books, just because. it's alot of work though. but often pays off with player immersion as they realize they are the ones calling the shots.

I'm very tempted by 13th Age acually, might treat myself even though i've got loads more games I never play. I still haven't finished readign L5R 4e, and i brought Blades in the Dark last week.

13A is great at what it sets out to do, and the game is entirely playable with just the core book. It has excellent supplements and adventures but they are hardly necessary, and some of them are nearly useless if you choose not to use the game's default setting. If I had any complaints about it, they would be that the multiclassing system introduced in 13 True Ways is wonky and the Icons system could use better explanation and examples in the core rules. Personally, I'd probably just disallow multiclassing entirely and I prefer to use a simpler method for Icon rolls that downplays them a bit and gives me as the GM more control over how and when they come into play.

Quote from: Brand55;97329113A is great at what it sets out to do, and the game is entirely playable with just the core book.

This.  

I have no interest in playing or running 13A, but it -is- a good read and filled with simple and inspiring ideas worth considering for other games (like "what if -this- PC was the only member of his class in the world", or "let's do something really weird mechanically with these monsters").  To me it's D&D for people who want games to come preloaded with -memorable- mechanics; which isn't to say it always works out or everyone should love it, but I give it mad kudos for having the designers actually call out why some of the things are the way they are in the text.

Quote from: Biscuitician;973244If that's true then I
M not keen on that either

The core is still very useable. The other books are optional. I'm just trying to show that finding all all in one complete inexpensive core fantasy book exist. Just that they are the exception and not the rule.

Quote from: Voros;973247How about we all come over and beat you unconscious with our D&D hardcovers? Maybe that would resolve your conundrum?

I'm starting to wonder if the OP is being dense and uncooperative on purpose at this point. Solutions and advice were given and simply ignored. I think the OP was never really interested in any advice or feedback. Just another "make me feel validated" slapping on the back "atta boy" style of thread. No intention of following any advice given. Rpgs are expensive and nothing short of a gun pointed at them and even then will change their opinion on that.

People are buying it, so it's not "too expensive."

"It is more than I can afford or care to pay" <> "too expensive."

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;973456People are buying it, so it's not "too expensive."

"It is more than I can afford or care to pay" <> "too expensive."

That's exactly what "too expensive" means. The word is inherently relative.

Quote from: Harlock;973171Wow. I have been very fortunate then in my RPG tenure. There's usually a dearth players and a line of GMs wanting to run this or that game, system or campaign. I'm considering asking one of my current groups, the DM specifically, if he'd mind alternating weeks with me running my campaign.

I love DMing. But locally of my players only one other likes to DM. But they are bad at winging it and so spend alot of time on prep. So they dont DM often. One other player I know DMs alot for his family, but was a player in my Star Frontiers campaign a few years back.

But from experience theres usually more players than DMs. Ive never seen a situation where there werent any willing DMs at all. But apparently other have had the problem.

Quote from: Pat;973479That's exactly what "too expensive" means. The word is inherently relative.

Yeah, but he played with Gary Gygax.

Quote from: Voros;973247How about we all come over and beat you unconscious with our D&D hardcovers? Maybe that would resolve your conundrum?

He's just a trolling douche at this point.  It doesn't matter how many reasonable low cost options get tossed at him; he can't cede his original point.

Quote from: Angry_Douchebag;973803He's just a trolling douche at this point.  It doesn't matter how many reasonable low cost options get tossed at him; he can't cede his original point.

You're insulting me because I don't want to buy the games you think I should buy?

You've completely missed the point of this thread. I'm not especially looking for alternatives. By all means provide some, I'm always interested in hearing about games i might have missed, but my point was about DnD. The question wasn't "recommend a cheaper alternative to DND". So, aside from being an abusive cunt, you're arguing with yourself.

Hmm, he asked why 5th edition AD&D is so expensive and quoted a U.K. price on Amazon, was shown that he can get it for free and that there are also inexpensive alternatives...I'm not sure why this thread even exists anymore. If he were interested in getting the game, he could've had it by now. I'm going to have to go with "troll" as per Mr. Douchebag up a couple of posts up.

Quote from: Biscuitician;973804You're insulting me because I don't want to buy the games you think I should buy?

You've completely missed the point of this thread. I'm not especially looking for alternatives. By all means provide some, I'm always interested in hearing about games i might have missed, but my point was about DnD. The question wasn't "recommend a cheaper alternative to DND". So, aside from being an abusive cunt, you're arguing with yourself.

This is the second time in this one thread where I've had to point out how you completely miss your own complicity in the hostility going around.  I'm pretty sure everyone here to be acting either deliberately obtuse, or to be extremely bad at picking up on social cues. So here it is, as plainly as possible: What is it that you are trying to accomplish? Garner sympathy, get suggestions to solve a problem, just say, "whoa nelly, doesn't that seem expensive?," or what? Because you have not defined it. When people have offered advice about circumventing the problem of expensive D&D, you have been dismissive. When people have asked you direct questions, you have been evasive. There is a reason people are calling you names. It is because the think you are a troll, which your actions are indistinguishable from.

Hopefully you will prove them wrong or right soon enough, and then either settle in once you learn the ropes if you aren't a troll, or discover quickly that trolling isn't as much fun here as it is in places where people get genuinely mad at them.

Hope this resolves quickly.

D&D is a group activity. Maybe the whole group could chip in together and buy. A set of the books?

Even at the price of the books, I don't consider D&D to be all that expensive a form of entertainment for time invested. I have rpgs that I have been actively enjoying for decades. A substantial return on investment by any measure.

I will admit that there are games, and D&D 5e is one of them, that I have opted not to purchase because I didn't want to spend that money on that game. Rather like going to a restaurant seeing the menu price for a steak and deciding to have the chicken instead.

Quote from: Angry_Douchebag;973803He's just a trolling douche at this point.  It doesn't matter how many reasonable low cost options get tossed at him; he can't cede his original point.

Pretty much. Rather surprised it took you all this long to figure it out. Free 5e Basic PHB, DMG/MM, and alternate race, class, monster, gear, etc. are there, by WotC's own website. Plus a DM Guild choc-o-bloc with free Adventures. Somehow POD, Kinkos, AND home printing are all impossible! solutions, too.

He's an obvious troll until proven otherwise.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]1129[/ATTACH]

Quote from: Angry_Douchebag;973803He's just a trolling douche at this point.  It doesn't matter how many reasonable low cost options get tossed at him; he can't cede his original point.

The Irony here is that he or she is getting angry and offended at being called a troll. As I said in a earlier post. This was really a validation thread to get confirmation of the OP views and nothing else. Rpgs are expensive and no one and I mean no one will tell the Op otherwise.

Quote from: Biscuitician;973804You're insulting me because I don't want to buy the games you think I should buy?

Your being called a Troll because no matter what advice, links or anything else that proves you wrong. It does not fit into the carefully constructed personal narrative about rpgs being expensive. No matter what anyone says "rpgs are expensive and no one here or elsewhere, online or in person is going tell me otherwise"

Quote from: Angry_Douchebag;973803You've completely missed the point of this thread. I'm not especially looking for alternatives. By all means provide some, I'm always interested in hearing about games i might have missed, but my point was about DnD. The question wasn't "recommend a cheaper alternative to DND". So, aside from being an abusive cunt, you're arguing with yourself.

we know the point of your thread as I said it was a obvious attempt at a validation thread. Hopping that everyone would agree with you and pat on you on the back. Your position on the topic is set in Adamantium and no one will convince you otherwise. Sorry but we are through trying to give you validation.

what a bizarre set of responses

It's all about perceived ROI (return on investment).

RPGs are expensive if you read them instead of novels. You can get 300 page novels for $8 instead of $50. If the RPG just gets read and shelved, its ROI is pathetic. The perceived ROI is based on how much fun and use you get out of the RPG.

AKA, the $50 for a RPG is meaningless if you get 50 hours of fun, and if you multiply that out with players, the ROI goes through the roof as the price per hour goes to pennies.

I am ROI conscious. It's why I've bought all my sports cars used because I get low mileage roadsters for less than a new econobox.  Heck, I buy lots of books used for the same reason. It's easy to justify ROI on something you got at a fraction of the original price.

Quote from: Biscuitician;973804You've completely missed the point of this thread.

I am confused by this thread. What exactly is your point?

Quote from: Spinachcat;973902It's all about perceived ROI (return on investment).

I am confused by this thread. What exactly is your point?

I tried the ROI argument. It was shot down.

I'm not sure what the point is either.

Ladies and Gentlemen let's just walk away the Op knows he is trolling, and now pretending he or she can't understand why the thread is getting the reaction and feedback it's getting. Time for this thread to die.

The person running this website is a racist who publicly advocates genocidal practices.

I am deleting my content.

I recommend you do the same.

For as long as I can remember, cheap gamers have been complaining about how expensive D&D was.

Quote from: RPGPundit;974996For as long as I can remember, cheap gamers have been complaining about how expensive D&D was.

Yeah. I remember when I was nine years old and looking to start playing D&D, the cost of those three rulebooks was daunting. Then B/X came out and all was well because I could get the entire rulebook, module and even the dice for a really reasonable price and add on stuff to expand the game later (I didn't really know what cost deferment was at 9, but I seemed to work it out). Too bad there isn't a Starter set for 5th edition and downloadable basic rules to get you started... If a nine year old could figure it out, you'd think an adult could.

Quote from: Biscuitician;973245Not a bad idea. But I'm too vain for such common sense

So you're ADMITTING you're a troll, then.

Quote from: RPGPundit;974996For as long as I can remember, cheap gamers have been complaining about how expensive D&D was.

Gamers are even cheaper than model railroaders, and that takes some doing.

As I said on the GaryCon Facebook page when people were complaining about the cost of food... delivered to your gaming table as you game... "Gamers are cheap shitheels."

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;975022Gamers are even cheaper than model railroaders, and that takes some doing.

As I said on the GaryCon Facebook page when people were complaining about the cost of food... delivered to your gaming table as you game... "Gamers are cheap shitheels."

Well, to be fair, they were forced at gunpoint to order it, right?

Wish they would do pdfs!

Quote from: Dumarest;975033Well, to be fair, they were forced at gunpoint to order it, right?

The irritating part was comparing it to McDonalds'.  What's the opportunity cost of halting the game, a ten minute walk to your car, a ten minute drive to McDonalds', another ten minute drive to the convention, five minutes looking for a place to park, and a ten minute walk back to the table.

Or pay $12 for a burger and fries, including tax and tip, and keep playing while it's brought to you.  Yes it's more than McDonalds, but the convention hotel makes its money off food and drinks, not the rooms.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;975058The irritating part was comparing it to McDonalds'.  What's the opportunity cost of halting the game, a ten minute walk to your car, a ten minute drive to McDonalds', another ten minute drive to the convention, five minutes looking for a place to park, and a ten minute walk back to the table.

Or pay $12 for a burger and fries, including tax and tip, and keep playing while it's brought to you.  Yes it's more than McDonalds, but the convention hotel makes its money off food and drinks, not the rooms.

$12 for a burger and fries hand delivered, tax and tip included sounds a right bargain to me. I bet I couldn't talk my wife into making me a burger and fries and bringing them to the game table for less than that.

How good were the burgers?

I don't want to make assumptions, but I'll bet plenty of those gamers could stand to skip a meal or two anyway...:D

Where I live $12 for a burger is a deal.

Quote from: Voros;975067Where I live $12 for a burger is a deal.

Meat shortage?

Quote from: Dumarest;975069Meat shortage?

Talking about the length of another man's meat is a low blow. ;)

:D Tourist town.

The burgers were meh.  Not bad but not good.  The pizzas were actually fairly nice, if simple.

Hotel convention food is expensive, we all know that.  But not out of line.

The hot sliced beef and cheese for $15 was hit-or-miss; good once, dry the next time.  So it goes.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;975058The irritating part was comparing it to McDonalds'.  What's the opportunity cost of halting the game, a ten minute walk to your car, a ten minute drive to McDonalds', another ten minute drive to the convention, five minutes looking for a place to park, and a ten minute walk back to the table.

Or pay $12 for a burger and fries, including tax and tip, and keep playing while it's brought to you.  Yes it's more than McDonalds, but the convention hotel makes its money off food and drinks, not the rooms.

That's closer to economically stable adult logic. I'm used to hearing about young people getting into the Con for free by running a game, cramming into a room (sleeping any and everywhere), and carpooling everywhere in groups of 3+. So every dollar matters in that budget logic. I get the cheapness.

But I always found Cons a bad value, even with all those cost saving tricks.

Jumping back in concerning cons and cheap gamers.
I just spent last weekend at a con in the UK running a multi-hour game of CoC over two days.
Cost of return train fare to Sheffield (it's a 5-6 hour drive and my prostate can't deal with that at the moment) £76 and change with a senior discount.
Hotel room for 2 nights £130
Bar food and a couple of drinks about £30 (full English cooked breakfast was included with the room).
The room was a decent sized (for the Uk) double with shower, free tea/coffee.

Total £235, less than $300, for the weekend, well worth it for the enjoyment but some people who hadn't travelled as far bitched about the cost. God knows what they'd have to say about the cost of four days at Gencon.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;975103The burgers were meh.  Not bad but not good.  The pizzas were actually fairly nice, if simple.

Hotel convention food is expensive, we all know that.  But not out of line.

The hot sliced beef and cheese for $15 was hit-or-miss; good once, dry the next time.  So it goes.

So cafeteria level food at low-end restaurant prices?  Bleah.  Could they do deli sandwiches better than Oscar Meyer and Wonderbread?

I'd pay for the convenience of someone to deliver, but Christ at least let me order food worth eating.

I ended up buying  the core 2E books on my own much to the general surprise of my overall cheap gaming group at the time. I had to do a lot of chores, errands, and cut lawns to do. They kept complaining about the cost of the books at the time yet did NOTHING to try and make it easier for them to get the core. I don't have much respect for gamers or anyone who wants everything, now, yet does not want to pay for it. Or pay very little. It's a sad state of affairs in the hobby when people are complaining having to spend 10-15$ for a meal. It cost 40$ if not more in my neck of the woods to get a decent meal. Having worked in collections I also don't have much sympathy for any age group leaving beyond their means. Can't afford to eat at a gaming con. Don't go to the damn gaming con it's that simple. I paid off a 5 digit student loan back in 2011. It took my ten years and it meant not going out in trips or out in general as much as I liked. The trips to Gencon were not happening. In terms of food and cost what do you expect for 10-15$ a filet mignon. Cheap food is just that cheap and not usually the best tasting or quality. It's not to say one can't find decent food at that price yet it requires either bringing it with you (if it's allowed) or looking far and wide.

Tabletop RPGs are like one of the cheapest hobbies around. And gaming in general tends to be on the middling to low end of hobby prices -- depending mainly how quickly you chase the new thing and/or chase collection completion. I neither begrudge people their budgets, nor their attempts to be frugal, but it is one of the more affordable hobbies out there for the dabbler.

That said, I am pretty damn good at squeezing that buck for more bang, if I do say so myself. Conventions' costs are just much better spent for me at shows and events, (y'know things that won't likely happen again anytime soon, if ever). If the Con has a panel or star designer that I care about, that raises its value in my eyes. As does seeing old, distant friends, or checking out a good collector's market for rarities; those things would get me to ante up. But just to play games with strangers, and often for one-shots? There's FLGS and online fora better for meet and greets like that. I'd rather stay home and catch up with my art or reading.

Not my bag. :cool:

It's not the main reason, but a contributing factor to my main group being so long running is that it's hard to get entertainment for a cheap as we pull it off.  One complete set of rules, several extra PHbs, dice, good homemade food for lunch and dinner, 7-8 times a year, for an all day game.  Even not stinting on the food, our average cost per day started moderate, steadily went down, and now is under $5 a person.  Though admittedly it's easier to do that with a big group than a small one.  That tends to alleviate that approximately $250 (Amazon prices) in 5E purchases pretty darn quick.  Especially since half of it was me, and the rest was spread out over the rest of the group.

I could afford more now, but not everyone in our group could.  And I've still got a touch of the late 70's price consciousness.  Mainly, though, I don't buy a lot of books because then I'd need to store them, or if a PDF, I probably wouldn't read them.

Quote from: CRKrueger;975128So cafeteria level food at low-end restaurant prices?  Bleah.  Could they do deli sandwiches better than Oscar Meyer and Wonderbread?

I'd pay for the convenience of someone to deliver, but Christ at least let me order food worth eating.

That would be a first at pretty much any convention venue I've been in.

I've been going to game cons since the 70s.  This is a bit better than most cons, honestly.

The caesar chicken wrap was $9 and pretty good.  The chicken caesar salad was only seven, but salads are a bit clumsy to eat while gaming.

I picked up 13th Age. Pretty good value at £32 for the game. One book.

I will admit to being envious of Benoist & Lord Vreeg's culinary entertainments. Dinner and a show for about as inexpensive and intimate as you can get.

Quote from: RPGPundit;974996For as long as I can remember, cheap gamers have been complaining about how expensive D&D was.

Yup.  Here's a copy of a 1974 review of D&D. (http://www-personal.umich.edu/~beattie/timeline/1972-1979/dd.gif)

Second-to-last paragraph:  

Beyond the problems involved in play (find an intrepid referee), the other discouraging factor is price.  These booklets are roughly comparable to "The Courier" in physical quality, but at $3.50 each are priced rather high.  Worse, all three are necessary.  Graphics, considering the format, are decent, with some excellent illustrations, but some space could have been saved without compromising appearance.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;975246That would be a first at pretty much any convention venue I've been in.

I've been going to game cons since the 70s.  This is a bit better than most cons, honestly.

The caesar chicken wrap was $9 and pretty good.  The chicken caesar salad was only seven, but salads are a bit clumsy to eat while gaming.

Doesn't sound too bad then.  Do they let people deliver stuff?  Can you just order a couple pizzas from the best place in town?

Quote from: CRKrueger;975682Doesn't sound too bad then.  Do they let people deliver stuff?  Can you just order a couple pizzas from the best place in town?

You could probably order them to your room.

On the other hand, the venue makes its money off food and drink and gives GaryCon a break on room rates for a guaranteed sales volume of food.  Same as pretty much any other convention I've been to.

Considering some of the shitty meals I've had at conventions for a lot more money, I really have a hard time crying much about a slightly dry burger.

Quote from: Harlock;975061$12 for a burger and fries hand delivered, tax and tip included sounds a right bargain to me. I bet I couldn't talk my wife into making me a burger and fries and bringing them to the game table for less than that.

To be honest, $12 seems expensive to me (the best burger in town, which I order quite often, costs about $12 with home-made fries; but an average burger here will tend to be quite a bit cheaper than that).  But that comes with the territory of living in South America, where food is relatively cheap.

Quote from: RPGPundit;976137But that comes with the territory of living in South America, where food is relatively cheap.

An so much fucking better... :( Gawd, I miss those luxuriant smells from the grocery aisles!

Quote from: RPGPundit;976137To be honest, $12 seems expensive to me (the best burger in town, which I order quite often, costs about $12 with home-made fries; but an average burger here will tend to be quite a bit cheaper than that).  But that comes with the territory of living in South America, where food is relatively cheap.

You have to remember I'm talking about in a convention hotel, which ALWAYS has a wicked markup.  Yeah, it's overpriced, but it's a convention hotel.  Their food has been famously bad for decades.

Quote from: Opaopajr;976140An so much fucking better... :( Gawd, I miss those luxuriant smells from the grocery aisles!

Yeah. When I visit north america I'm pretty stunned at how comparatively tasteless certain fruits and vegetables are.

To say nothing of the meat.

I live in a rural area so we get a lot of our food from local small farmers. I can taste the difference!

Quote from: Biscuitician;973901what a bizarre set of responses

How badly do you want it?

 Does it have to be 'very soon' or can it wait about a month?
Send me a private message....

- Ed C.

Quote from: RPGPundit;976793Yeah. When I visit north america I'm pretty stunned at how comparatively tasteless certain fruits and vegetables are.

To say nothing of the meat.

Meat is getting better if you care and know what to buy. We mostly eat game meat that my wife and I shoot. When that runs out, we go for the grass-fed beef and buffalo. It costs more, but unless I'm making a curry (which is going to cover the taste anyway) we prefer the better tasting beef.

For tomatoes, there is a brand sold on-the-vine that tastes pretty good. Not quite as good as nice heirloom tomatoes, but the stores actually carry them.

The good stuff is definitely out there, I just refuse to go to 2-3 different stores for groceries to get the really good stuff.

Quote from: RPGPundit;976137But that comes with the territory of living in South America, where food is relatively cheap.

And plentiful, like in Venezuela!

Quote from: RPGPundit;976793Yeah. When I visit north america I'm pretty stunned at how comparatively tasteless certain fruits and vegetables are.

To say nothing of the meat.

Alberta beef tastes fine. I can't comment much on produce since I can't eat most plant based foods.

Quote from: Tod13;976848Meat is getting better if you care and know what to buy. We mostly eat game meat that my wife and I shoot. When that runs out, we go for the grass-fed beef and buffalo. It costs more, but unless I'm making a curry (which is going to cover the taste anyway) we prefer the better tasting beef.

For tomatoes, there is a brand sold on-the-vine that tastes pretty good. Not quite as good as nice heirloom tomatoes, but the stores actually carry them.

The good stuff is definitely out there, I just refuse to go to 2-3 different stores for groceries to get the really good stuff.

Corporate agriculture is a fact of modern life. Nothing specific about north America there. Tomatoes are a great example. The U.S. alone is 56 times the size of Pundy's Uruguay or 10.6 times the size of Venezuela, which Dumarest mentioned. If they had to ship tomatoes as far as they do in the US, they'd probably also use the stable-but-bland method of undergrowing the tomatoes, then ripening them on-location with ethylene gas.

In other words, strongly agree. Good food can be found anywhere. Just have to look for it because otherwise people will do what is economical, which is not the same as tasty.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;976895Corporate agriculture is a fact of modern life. Nothing specific about north America there. Tomatoes are a great example. The U.S. alone is 56 times the size of Pundy's Uruguay or 10.6 times the size of Venezuela, which Dumarest mentioned. If they had to ship tomatoes as far as they do in the US, they'd probably also use the stable-but-bland method of undergrowing the tomatoes, then ripening them on-location with ethylene gas.

In other words, strongly agree. Good food can be found anywhere. Just have to look for it because otherwise people will do what is economical, which is not the same as tasty.

:D
I agree with you. It gets even more fun when you start looking at how many people would starve if we didn't have corporate agriculture and some sort of engineered crops.

It helps finding good food that places like Kroger (aka Fred Meyer) are supplying "local" foods. (Which is funny, because even "local" Texas means 4x the size of Uruguay.)

If you really want tasty, grow it yourself, or help someone that does.  All else pales in comparison. :)

Quote from: Tod13;976848I just refuse to go to 2-3 different stores for groceries to get the really good stuff.

And there you have it.  If the customer insisted on food that actually tasted good, they'd get it.

Quote from: Tod13;976898:D
I agree with you. It gets even more fun when you start looking at how many people would starve if we didn't have corporate agriculture and some sort of engineered crops.

It helps finding good food that places like Kroger (aka Fred Meyer) are supplying "local" foods. (Which is funny, because even "local" Texas means 4x the size of Uruguay.)

Yeah - when people start talking about banning GMOs I ask them to pick which 3 billion people starve to death.

And frankly - GMOs taste fine and humans have been altering crops for nearly as long as they've been growing them.  We're just better at it now.  It's the shipping from a distance and long-term storage which reduces the taste.

As to higher cost - that's mostly a big city and east/west coast thing.  Even living in a substantial city in the Midwest I can't think of many places which would charge $12 for a burger - and it'd likely be half a pound, include extras (mushrooms etc.) and a side.

I'm not even going to bother addressing an idiotic comment wherein someone thinks he can rate the quality of food available over a continent covering 9,540,000 square miles based on his limited intake and access. Oh wait, I just bothered. :rolleyes:

No, the food's even better than that! :(

Oh gawds, the memory of the fragrant fruits is returning! Whatever shall I do? :eek:

The person running this website is a racist who publicly advocates genocidal practices.

I am deleting my content.

I recommend you do the same.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;976959Yeah - when people start talking about banning GMOs I ask them to pick which 3 billion people starve to death.

Not to mention the insulin which keeps many diabetics alive is the product of a GMO.  So if you want to ban GMOs are you willing to personally pull the trigger on the diabetics?

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;976959Yeah - when people start talking about banning GMOs I ask them to pick which 3 billion people starve to death.

And frankly - GMOs taste fine and humans have been altering crops for nearly as long as they've been growing them.  We're just better at it now.  It's the shipping from a distance and long-term storage which reduces the taste.

As to higher cost - that's mostly a big city and east/west coast thing.  Even living in a substantial city in the Midwest I can't think of many places which would charge $12 for a burger - and it'd likely be half a pound, include extras (mushrooms etc.) and a side.

GMO crops in North America are comprised from Alfalfa for animal feed, Canola, Cotton, Corn, Soya bean and Sugar beet. I think the Arctic Apple was recently approved as well. It's ridiculously easy to avoid using these products. Cotton probably won't have much effect since it's not ingested and sugar doesn't have DNA.

That said, Genetic Modification will probably be rendered obsolete by gene editing.

Quote from: DavetheLost;977080Not to mention the insulin which keeps many diabetics alive is the product of a GMO.  So if you want to ban GMOs are you willing to personally pull the trigger on the diabetics?

I doubt it.  I know that for PETA - which is against ALL animal testing and production in medicine etc., one of their higher ups uses animal made insulin.

Quote from: Biscuitician;972766It's just a bit sad they have to make this hobby so dear.

That depends on whether your hobby is collecting or playing.

Spread over lots of play time, it's pretty cheap. I won't play 5e so it'd be too expensive for me. But I'd pay the price for a new print of AD&D1e, Traveller, etc. In fact, in the last year or two I've been buying extra secondhand copies of these from time to time, as mine are getting worn out in play. The pages are falling out of the PHB... but I did get it in 1983, so I can't complain too much.

We just finished up a campaign with a TPK, but the party won. That's been going since a bit before April, I think. Maybe 20 sessions. Lots of fun and laughs. Even if I'd bought the game books new... I spent more money on snacks for the game session in that time!

Maybe the OP doesn't have snacks at his game sessions. In which case, I have nothing to say to him, he lies beyond all humanity and decency.

In importance to the success of a game session, it is,


This is from back in the day when rpg.net was almost useful:

https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?250660-Theory-Cheetoism

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;977233I doubt it.  I know that for PETA - which is against ALL animal testing and production in medicine etc., one of their higher ups uses animal made insulin.

That in itself is pretty weird. Most insulin is made using bacteria or yeast.

Quote from: Biscuitician;972749Had a look on Amazon uk at the price of the three core books. £80 not including postage.

Ouch!

  Pretty sure in 1979 with the release of the monster manual it started.  I remember as a kid the books being rather expensive, with that one being 12-15 bucks.  Adjusted for inflation and actual increase of quality, I think the books are actually cheaper now, but I could be wrong.  But I think they have always been pricey,

Quote from: Tod13;977295That in itself is pretty weird. Most insulin is made using bacteria or yeast.

Some is, but the earliest insulin was animal derived, and I think it's still better for some kinds of diabetes.  (I know just enough about medicine to sort of sound like I know what I'm talking about - so I'm not going to even try to delve further than that.)

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;977241That depends on whether your hobby is collecting or playing.

Heck, collecting non-RPG books can be pretty damn pricey once you get into actual bibliophile-level stuff.  And don't even talk about the price of college textbooks or specialized manuals.

What's a nice comic collection run these days?

Quote from: Justin Alexander;977044The sad thing is that there will, in fact, come a day when a genetically-modified crop food is posing an actual health risk to people. And it will be impossible to get anyone to listen because the idea has been so thoroughly discredited by kooks.

Not true. There's a fairly strong anti-GMO market that grow$ every year. Scientific studies have suggested that long term organic yields are comparable to long term GMO yields. The 3 billion starving people is just a propaganda point put out by fat Americans who eat too fucking much.

What GMO's offer is greater short term certainty in an industry subject to uncertainty (agriculture). For a producer that's attractive, but it also means higher input costs. The seed sellers are also the chemical sellers, so they make serious bank with this system.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;977355Some is, but the earliest insulin was animal derived, and I think it's still better for some kinds of diabetes.  (I know just enough about medicine to sort of sound like I know what I'm talking about - so I'm not going to even try to delve further than that.)

I'm a software developer turned bioinformatician, and took grad classes in molecular biology and bioengineering related ares. But, like you, won't comment on the clinical aspects. ;)

What the fuck does GMOs and Insulin have to do with RPGs and their expense?

Quote from: san dee jota;977372Heck, collecting non-RPG books can be pretty damn pricey once you get into actual bibliophile-level stuff.

That's what I mean. In principle, if it's just going to be glanced at and then go on your shelf, it's not worth a lot of cash; if you're going to get hundreds of hours of fun from it, it's worth a lot.

Of course, in practice it's the reverse. People will pay zillions for shit they never use, and get stingy with stuff they do use. I always think of the guy on the Acaeum who posted up pics of his game library, it was a full-on old school library with varnished wood and green leather-clad table and all that, and something like 17 copies of OD&D, which he'd paid thousands for each... all wrapped in plastic and never played. That's wrong.

In my professional field of being a trainer, there are actually guys who collect old weight sets and... don't lift at all.

Quote from: Voros;977445What the fuck does GMOs and Insulin have to do with RPGs and their expense?

If I didn't have to spend so much on my Insulin I could spend more on RPGs.

Quote from: Voros;977445What the fuck does GMOs and Insulin have to do with RPGs and their expense?

Not a blessed thing. Aren't forum discussions fun? Tangents are just fine unless they pull politics into the game section or vice versa, and I guess this doesn't count.

I agree that it's a bit... odd, and I'd probably lose interest in the thread if it was just this. But it's a pretty normal type of digression for a thread that has served its' purpose (do we all agree that gaming books are a reasonable known expense that has gone up with inflation but not much more than that, that OP had plenty of other options available/suggested to them and simply was uninterested in any other option and is thus a captive audience to a single producer, and had no point except looking for sympathy of which we had little?).

Quote from: DavetheLost;977489If I didn't have to spend so much on my Insulin I could spend more on RPGs.

 Good one  :D

Quote from: Voros;977445What the fuck does GMOs and Insulin have to do with RPGs and their expense?

The question was answered some time ago ("D&D is -cheaper- now, you're just whiny"), so all that's left is irrelevant digressions.

Quote from: Krimson;977131GMO crops in North America are comprised from Alfalfa for animal feed, Canola, Cotton, Corn, Soya bean and Sugar beet. I think the Arctic Apple was recently approved as well. It's ridiculously easy to avoid using these products.

Hardly. If you think it's easy to avoid corn and soy, you may not be reading the ingredients carefully when you buy ... just about everything (including specifically Gaming Snacks).

I have a friend who is extremely alergic to corn and corn derivatives. The stuff is everywhere and under a bunch of names that do not include "corn".  I presume the situation is similar for soy.

Quote from: DavetheLost;977788I have a friend who is extremely alergic to corn and corn derivatives. The stuff is everywhere and under a bunch of names that do not include "corn".  I presume the situation is similar for soy.

Yep, including (in the U.S.) "natural flavoring", for example, commonly derived from soy.

That is, in Gaming Snacks specifically, among other foods.

Quote from: abcd_z;975598Yup.  Here's a copy of a 1974 review of D&D. (http://www-personal.umich.edu/~beattie/timeline/1972-1979/dd.gif)

Second-to-last paragraph:  

Beyond the problems involved in play (find an intrepid referee), the other discouraging factor is price.  These booklets are roughly comparable to "The Courier" in physical quality, but at $3.50 each are priced rather high.  Worse, all three are necessary.  Graphics, considering the format, are decent, with some excellent illustrations, but some space could have been saved without compromising appearance.

I understand where you are coming from but you need to remember how much the value of the dollar has changed in the last 43 years.
At that time you could still get A cup of coffee for A dime.

Quote from: kosmos1214;977920I understand where you are coming from but you need to remember how much the value of the dollar has changed in the last 43 years.
At that time you could still get A cup of coffee for A dime.

Heh.  

So more evidence that games are actually getting -cheaper-?  I mean, a cup of coffee (not fancy Starbucks, just run of the mill stuff) will cost you... let's say a buck.  A thousand percent increase, right?  So $3.50 becomes $35, and $35 for a "booklet" -is- obscene*... except you can spend $35 for a hardback book off of Amazon with better full color art and paper than any RPG in the 70s could dream of!

(*actually, there -are- some high end books out there that cost that and more.  And without the prices of deep discounters to help offset costs, those prices can drive a book out of the realm of general use.  Except PDFs are still cheap, and even cheaper if you pirate them first to see if they're worth buying)

Again, the issue with anything is not price, but value. In my gym, a client's mother said training would be too expensive - she smokes a pack a day, which in Australia is $30. So that $210pw. My gym is $38pw. She can spend $210 to make herself sick, but can't spend $38 to make herself well. She sees value in smoking, but does not see value in lifting. Now, what you value is up to you. But the issue is not the price. My gym could be $100 or $1 and it wouldn't change her decision. She blows her money on other stuff, not on gym.

Likewise, most of us blow our money on something. Few are so constrained that they must count pennies merely to be able to eat, and people that constrained won't be discussing it on the internet - they can't afford it! So if you are here, you have spare cash to blow, the only question is on what?

Which is why I said: if you use it to game, the rpg book is excellent value. Had I bought the PHB, DMG and MM as the 1e reprints, here in Australia they might have been $150 in all. Considering only my most recent campaign, we played it for 4-5 months, but missed some weeks - it was at least 15 sessions in all, though. That's $10 a session. But each night I went into the city I bought a burger ($10) or Schnitz meal ($20) and snacks for the group ($10). So even just using the books for one short campaign, I still spent more than twice as much on food I didn't need (I could have had dinner at home) as on the books themselves.

And this is a pretty common pattern among gamers. Thus my comment: the issue is not price but value.

And of course, I have played and will play much more than just that short campaign. In fact I have the first copies I ever got back in 83-84, I've since bought a few PHBs off ebay to hand around to players, and replace my original PHB which after more than three decades of use has had the pages come away from the cover.

If you actually game with the books, then they are pretty good value. If you just like to sit and look at your books, they are of dubious value. Which is, of course, part of why we call people like the OP a BNG, a Bitter Non-Gamer. He doesn't actually want to game, just to complain about it.

Quote from: san dee jota;978176Heh.  

So more evidence that games are actually getting -cheaper-?  I mean, a cup of coffee (not fancy Starbucks, just run of the mill stuff) will cost you... let's say a buck.  A thousand percent increase, right?  So $3.50 becomes $35, and $35 for a "booklet" -is- obscene*... except you can spend $35 for a hardback book off of Amazon with better full color art and paper than any RPG in the 70s could dream of!

(*actually, there -are- some high end books out there that cost that and more.  And without the prices of deep discounters to help offset costs, those prices can drive a book out of the realm of general use.  Except PDFs are still cheap, and even cheaper if you pirate them first to see if they're worth buying)

Ehh? If coffee was a dime and is now a dollar it is a 10x increase. That gaming book or supplement that was originally 3.50 is currently going for an average of $35 on Ebay. I know, i have been tracking prices on D&D whitebook since about last Thanksgiving. The newer Games are not actually getting cheaper. The full white D&D 74 bookset was originally $10, now it is going for $300 or almost 30x what it originally sold for. You can still get the books without the original box for $100 putting it back in that 10x category.

Now you can get a new set of D&D 5e books for $120 @ $39.95 each. That does not include any adventure, by the way, just the core 5e books PHB, MM, DMG. So it is 12x original price. Cost of printing and shipping is up, so the profit margin is down on the newer books. The older books don't cost more, because they are more expensive to produce,  ...they cost more, because there are fewer books.

So this is really a supply issue unrelated to inflation as there is a very high demand for the original White Bookset, and according to my research, there is an extremely high demand (and extremely high prices ranging from 6x to 50x original price, and even more in some rare cases), for any original D&D Basic Books published before 1980.

Now the new game are not any less expensive. The New Games are actually more expensive, once you factor in the adventure supplements like Curse of Strahd, Hoard of the Dragon Queen, and such. as well as the fashionable add-on products such as spell cards, and fantasy map grids, and such.

The old game is actually getting much more expensive, as being out of print, it is becoming more and more rare as portions of the original booksets decompose, ...are lost, ...are stolen, ...are damaged, or the pages are torn by accident by clumsy gamers (cooffffffeeeee spillll AAAAIIiiiiiiieeeeeee! .... Mah dog ate my 0D&D book, the varmint!!!...)

Let's see...theTraveller boxed set was how much in 1977? Anybody know? Now, I didn't get mine new as it was given to me by my sister's boyfriend who, I guess, didn't want it anymore,  but whatever he paid, it's pretty close to zero spread out over 40 years of use.  RPGs are only "expensive" if you are buying them to play one time only. Otherwise they are one of the cheapest pastimes I can think of.

D&D 5th Edition is only expensive if you go with both physical books and D&D Beyond.

Quote from: Dumarest;978241Let's see...theTraveller boxed set was how much in 1977? Anybody know? Now, I didn't get mine new as it was given to me by my sister's boyfriend who, I guess, didn't want it anymore,  but whatever he paid, it's pretty close to zero spread out over 40 years of use.  RPGs are only "expensive" if you are buying them to play one time only. Otherwise they are one of the cheapest pastimes I can think of.

Yes, like D&D. The original Traveller little black boxed set was $10. Then very shortly after the initial release it was bumped up to $12.

Quote from: GameDaddy;978227Ehh? If coffee was a dime and is now a dollar it is a 10x increase. That gaming book or supplement that was originally 3.50 is currently going for an average of $35 on Ebay. I know, i have been tracking prices on D&D whitebook since about last Thanksgiving. The newer Games are not actually getting cheaper. The full white D&D 74 bookset was originally $10, now it is going for $300 or almost 30x what it originally sold for. You can still get the books without the original box for $100 putting it back in that 10x category.

At that point we're not talking about inflation.  Some of those have reached collectors' item status.

Quote from: GameDaddy;978227Now you can get a new set of D&D 5e books for $120 @ $39.95 each. That does not include any adventure, by the way, just the core 5e books PHB, MM, DMG. So it is 12x original price.

It's $103.68 for all three books this morning on Amazon, so each one is averaging... just under $35.   Which is close enough to 10x original price.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;978275At that point we're not talking about inflation.  Some of those have reached collectors' item status.

Eh? ...I use those books at my gaming table to run D&D games.

Quote from: GameDaddy;978450Eh? ...I use those books at my gaming table to run D&D games.

But my kids aren't going to use them as an introduction to the hobby.

The person running this website is a racist who publicly advocates genocidal practices.

I am deleting my content.

I recommend you do the same.

Quote from: GameDaddy;978450Eh? ...I use those books at my gaming table to run D&D games.

Congratulations?

Your current use of them has no relevance to their market value or their status as a collector's item.

If I shoot my Thanksgiving turkey with a rifle used in The War of Independence, that doesn't magically make its considerable value become primarily about putting meat on the table.  It's value is due to how much collectors want it no matter its current usage.  And I wouldn't try to compare that value to what it cost to purchase back in the 18th century.  (obviously a much more extreme example)

Quote from: Dumarest;976849And plentiful, like in Venezuela!

Venezuela is the exception, for political reasons. But on the whole food is one thing that's very abundant here. In Montevideo, there's literally a farmer's market once a week in every six-block area.

Quote from: Krimson;976873Alberta beef tastes fine. I can't comment much on produce since I can't eat most plant based foods.

I used to live in Alberta. The beef is good, truly great by North American standards (which kicks the crap out of European standards). Uruguayan beef is better. Like, substantially better.

Quote from: RPGPundit;979495Uruguayan beef is better. Like, substantially better.

What makes beef in Uruguay better?

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;978211So even just using the books for one short campaign, I still spent more than twice as much on food I didn't need (I could have had dinner at home) as on the books themselves.

I've argued that Coke & Pizza Hut made more money off D&D than TSR.

Back in high school, we gamed often at a local pizza joint. They loved us and I know as a group we spent x10 the amount of money there than we spent in the game store.

Quote from: RPGPundit;979493Venezuela is the exception, for political reasons. But on the whole food is one thing that's very abundant here. In Montevideo, there's literally a farmer's market once a week in every six-block area.

So just like pretty much anywhere in California and you find that exceptional somehow? Do Canadians not have those?

Quote from: RPGPundit;979495I used to live in Alberta. The beef is good, truly great by North American standards (which kicks the crap out of European standards). Uruguayan beef is better. Like, substantially better.

Again, can't take your remarks seriously as you clearly have limited experience with food of an entire continent.

Quote from: Dumarest;979558Again, can't take your remarks seriously as you clearly have limited experience with food of an entire continent.

I will have to say, Alberta beef is damn good.  So is Argentinian beef.  It's all in how you raise the cows and what you feed them.  The best beef producers manage their cows the old fashioned way, through selective breeding, they don't shoot them full of chemicals and pack them in to stand crammed together in their own shit for their entire lives never using all that steroid-grown muscle.  I was lucky enough to be working in Hawaii for a couple of weeks (so I wasn't paying for anything and got a stipend) and I splurged on some 100% pure Kobe beef from Japan.  Jesus H. Christ it was fantastic.

The beef you'll get locally in California and Nebraska though is much better than most states unless they're getting Nebraska or California beef.

Did the original poster totally miss that I was hinting I might get the books for him and work out some kind of deal?

Or did that hint just fall by the wayside amidst various arguments?

- Ed C.

Hey man this is a forum of beef experts take your nerdy RPG nonsense elsewhere!

Quote from: Dumarest;979557So just like pretty much anywhere in California and you find that exceptional somehow? Do Canadians not have those?

Lots of farmers markets but in Canadian cities they are Yuppie bait.

Quote from: Koltar;979655Did the original poster totally miss that I was hinting I might get the books for him and work out some kind of deal?

Or did that hint just fall by the wayside amidst various arguments?

- Ed C.

Wait, since when do we argue about games on an RPG forum? Where's the beef?

The OP doesn't want to game, Koltar, he just wants to complain about gaming. He's a BNG.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;979673The OP doesn't want to game, Koltar, he just wants to complain about gaming. He's a BNG.

Well that explains it.
In the past I have done 'barter deals' with folks on gaming forums and negotiated via the private messaging.
Sometimes things are more affordable in the USA, and its less expensive to send a game thing as a gift than do the Amazon or internet purchase thing.
One guy years ago  I traded a GURPS source book for a Sonic Screwdriver that was only available in the UK at the time.
Seemed a fair trade to me.

- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;979674Well that explains it.
In the past I have done 'barter deals' with folks on gaming forums and negotiated via the private messaging.
Sometimes things are more affordable in the USA, and its less expensive to send a game thing as a gift than do the Amazon or internet purchase thing.
One guy years ago  I traded a GURPS source book for a Sonic Screwdriver that was only available in the UK at the time.
Seemed a fair trade to me.

- Ed C.

You are coming at this as a gentleman should. Unfortunately the OP is a BNG and an idiot, just look at some of his ravings in Pundit's forum.

Jeff please don't drag your grudges from the Pundency here.

Quote from: RPGPundit;979495I used to live in Alberta. The beef is good, truly great by North American standards (which kicks the crap out of European standards).

There's good beef here. The Aberdeen Angus steaks I get for barbecue are very good, much better than most US restaurant steak I've had - of course they cost a lot more too. Most British beef not* sold specifically as steak is just a byproduct of the milk industry and definitely not great, but the top stuff stands global comparison I think.

*Actually my butcher friend tells me that even generic supermarket steak may be half dairy cow, since they don't secure the supply chain unless it's specifically marketed as a named beef breed.

Quote from: Voros;979686Jeff please don't drag your grudges from the Pundency here.

How can I have a grudge against my Id?

Quote from: Dumarest;979557So just like pretty much anywhere in California and you find that exceptional somehow? Do Canadians not have those?

How are the farmer's markets in CA? Given that you grow like 50% of the food the rest of the country eats, I might think that your general grocery isle produce would be what we would consider farmer's market quality (and thus your farmer's markets something we could barely conceive). Or does it not work out like that?

Quote from: Koltar;979655Did the original poster totally miss that I was hinting I might get the books for him and work out some kind of deal?

Or did that hint just fall by the wayside amidst various arguments?

- Ed C.

Yes, sorry. I'm interested in hearing about this though u live in the UK and have little sister cash right now. Mainly from buying 2nd hand Dr who DVDs.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;979711How are the farmer's markets in CA? Given that you grow like 50% of the food the rest of the country eats, I might think that your general grocery isle produce would be what we would consider farmer's market quality (and thus your farmer's markets something we could barely conceive). Or does it not work out like that?

Well, you have numerous options:
(1) Target and Walmart grocery sections
(2) Various supermarkets like Vons, Aldi's, etc.
(3) Specialty chains like Trader Joe's, Sprouts, etc.
(4) Bodegas and tiny specialty markets
(5) Farmer's markets all over the place, and swap meets that also have guys selling fruits and vegetables
(6) Guys on every corner with makeshift produce stands
(7) Pick it yourself
(8) Grow and pick it yourself

Depending on how much effort you want to make, you can get incredible quality food at very low prices. I buy my avocados, lemons, oranges, and other fruit from those guys on the corner because they are excellent, I grow my own tomatoes, I get other produce usually at a farmer's market or Sprouts, and usually buy meats and cheeses at the specialty stores. Cheerios and other ordinary stuff I get at Target most of the time. Anyone who thinks you can't find top quality food at low prices isn't trying very hard or expects to get it all at one place, which isn't going to happen.

Quote from: RPGPundit;979495I used to live in Alberta. The beef is good, truly great by North American standards (which kicks the crap out of European standards). Uruguayan beef is better. Like, substantially better.

I'll have to take your word on that because I'm not going to fly halfway around the world for a steak. :D

Quote from: Biscuitician;979718Yes, sorry. I'm interested in hearing about this though u live in the UK and have little sister cash right now. Mainly from buying 2nd hand Dr who DVDs.

I don't live in the "UK" - I reside in beautiful Southwest Ohio near a city called Cincinnati - the guy in my anecdote lived in the UK.

Also, I work at a game store....so I'm around RPG books all the time.

- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;979812I don't live in the "UK" - I reside in beautiful Southwest Ohio near a city called Cincinnati - the guy in my anecdote lived in the UK.

Also, I work at a game store....so I'm around RPG books all the time.

- Ed C.

I meant I live in the UK.

Anyway, what was it that you had in mind?

Quote from: Willie the Duck;979711How are the farmer's markets in CA? Given that you grow like 50% of the food the rest of the country eats,

Cali produces a LOT of food, and they produce nearly all of the US's output of a few things (ex: 99% of almonds), but in terms of agricultural value, Cali doesn't even match the next two states combined.  Cali = $34.8 billion, Iowa = $21 billion, Texas = $16.6 billion (as of 2009).

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;979832Cali produces a LOT of food, and they produce nearly all of the US's output of a few things (ex: 99% of almonds), but in terms of agricultural value, Cali doesn't even match the next two states combined.  Cali = $34.8 billion, Iowa = $21 billion, Texas = $16.6 billion (as of 2009).

Given that Texas and Iowa combined are twice the size of California and yet produce almost the same dollar amount as California per your figures, what do you think they're doing wrong that their production is only half as high? Also, it should be clear that dollar value of agricultural products doesn't have anything to do with the quantity of said products. So I'm not sure what you're trying to compare there except to say that the next two biggest agricultural states don't produce much in comparison?

Quote from: Dumarest;979833Given that Texas and Iowa combined are twice the size of California and yet produce almost the same dollar amount as California per your figures, what do you think they're doing wrong that their production is only half as high?

California's soil & climate are superior, letting California have year-round crops, especially in comparison to most of Texas (some of Texas is basically desert).  In addition, many of Cali's crops get more $ per acre but are also much higher labor costs.  (the extreme example being wine - which counts entirely towards their agricultural #s)  That's one reason why the average farm in California is about 2/3 the size of the rest of the country.

Grains are low labor cost to produces, but they're worth a lot less per acre.

Quote from: jeff37923;979707How can I have a grudge against my Id?

:eek: :D

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;979832Cali produces a LOT of food, and they produce nearly all of the US's output of a few things (ex: 99% of almonds), but in terms of agricultural value, Cali doesn't even match the next two states combined.  Cali = $34.8 billion, Iowa = $21 billion, Texas = $16.6 billion (as of 2009).

Hyperbole on my part. Plus I was focusing specifically on what I think of as farmer's market good (e.g. fresh produce). My main question is whether being the produce supplier for the rest of us means that their own farmer's market fair was even a step above our own, or whether it means that the state is hyperfocused on making the stable-to-transport-but-less-flavorful stuff that we get from them.

Quote from: Koltar;979674Well that explains it.
In the past I have done 'barter deals' with folks on gaming forums and negotiated via the private messaging.
Sometimes things are more affordable in the USA, and its less expensive to send a game thing as a gift than do the Amazon or internet purchase thing.
One guy years ago  I traded a GURPS source book for a Sonic Screwdriver that was only available in the UK at the time.
Seemed a fair trade to me.

- Ed C.

What did you have in mind?

Quote from: Biscuitician;980219What did you have in mind?

At the moment we're too close to Gen Con timewise for me to do it financially.
Give me a week or two?
Send me a PM exactly which D&D 5th edition books you want. Then lets figure out something gamer or geeky in the UK that would be difficult for me to find .

- Ed C.

Quote from: Dumarest;979833Given that Texas and Iowa combined are twice the size of California and yet produce almost the same dollar amount as California per your figures, what do you think they're doing wrong that their production is only half as high? Also, it should be clear that dollar value of agricultural products doesn't have anything to do with the quantity of said products. So I'm not sure what you're trying to compare there except to say that the next two biggest agricultural states don't produce much in comparison?

Iowa is 34% of the area of California yet it produces 60% as much agricultural output. So the question isn't "What are Iowa farmers doing wrong?" but "What are California farmers doing wrong?"

Quote from: Bren;980939Iowa is 34% of the area of California yet it produces 60% as much agricultural output. So the question isn't "What are Iowa farmers doing wrong?" but "What are California farmers doing wrong?"

Well, having a sister in California...

Much of the cropland in California is semiarid to arid.  Expensive housing is on good land and crops are raised in the stuff rich people don't want.

Plus chronic lack of water for years.

Quote from: Bren;980939Iowa is 34% of the area of California yet it produces 60% as much agricultural output. So the question isn't "What are Iowa farmers doing wrong?" but "What are California farmers doing wrong?"

Got some facts to support that?

Quote from: Dumarest;980944Got some facts to support that?

Yes. I used the numbers in Charon's post of 34.8 and 21 for CA and IA respectively. The land area for the two states are 163,696 and 56,272 respectively. The calculations are just simple arithmetic.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;980940Plus chronic lack of water for years.

Oh yeah. CA has been importing water and depleting aquifers for decades to support green lawns and agriculture. The water usage is not sustainable long term.

Quote from: Bren;980939Iowa is 34% of the area of California yet it produces 60% as much agricultural output. So the question isn't "What are Iowa farmers doing wrong?" but "What are California farmers doing wrong?"

Living in CA, the answer is very simple: most produce does not receive the level of subsidization that most grain and cattle do. This was a deliberate two pronged gov't-business choice: 1) response to the Dust Bowl instability, 2) 1950s Cold War era food security decision was pegged to calories -- not nutrition -- hence the sidelining of most produce for assistance.

It also explains an explosion in carbohydrates, issues of the primacy of sugar production (including fructose variants) and finding a market for them, and a depletion of general nutrition throughout our national diet with an ever increasing glycemic load on the standard American diet (very noticeable from size portions to older recipes with more nutrient dense produce over the decades).

(Watch that "invisible hand of the market" up the mass production muppet's ass make them lips move. :rolleyes: )

Interesting but I'd like to see the sources for the numbers. But I dont care enough to look for them.

I wonder if I started a thread about US produce production percentages by state if the subject would change over to role-playing games at some point?

:)

Quote from: RunningLaser;981049I wonder if I started a thread about US produce production percentages by state if the subject would change over to role-playing games at some point?

:)

Of course it would, and then it would degenerate into something about "social justice warriors."

Quote from: Dumarest;981037Interesting but I'd like to see the sources for the numbers. But I dont care enough to look for them.

The Wikipedia entry for the state gives you it's area. I don't know where Charon got his numbers for agricultural output by state but those were the numbers he, and you, used.

Opa's info about shifting diet and subsidy matches what I've heard elsewhere but falls under the heading of "can't be arsed to look it up."

Omnivore's Dilemma talks about corn subsidies and the effect on the US diet.

So there's this fun little computer game, Mount & Blade. In it you have a guy running around having adventures, and they can pick up some followers, men-at-arms types. You don't have to feed them but if you don't they tend to get depressed and drift off after a bit. So it's wise to get food and put it in the inventory for them to eat up. And it's not just "food", it's cheese or milk or beef or whatever. This affects morale, they're happier with wine than bread, for example.

I recall on the forum for the game someone was asking what people liked to feed their guys, and one person said,
"My men eat what men eat - nothing but ale and sausages!"

So next time I played, I had this magic-user Iago, and he hired a bunch of men-at-arms, and supplied them with lots of ale and sausages. The DM said something about constipation but Iago wasn't listening.

Crom laughs at your high-fructose corn syrup! ALE AND SAUSAGES FOR EVERYONE!

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;981206So there's this fun little computer game, Mount & Blade. In it you have a guy running around having adventures, and they can pick up some followers, men-at-arms types. You don't have to feed them but if you don't they tend to get depressed and drift off after a bit. So it's wise to get food and put it in the inventory for them to eat up. And it's not just "food", it's cheese or milk or beef or whatever. This affects morale, they're happier with wine than bread, for example.

I recall on the forum for the game someone was asking what people liked to feed their guys, and one person said,
"My men eat what men eat - nothing but ale and sausages!"

So next time I played, I had this magic-user Iago, and he hired a bunch of men-at-arms, and supplied them with lots of ale and sausages. The DM said something about constipation but Iago wasn't listening.

Crom laughs at your high-fructose corn syrup! ALE AND SAUSAGES FOR EVERYONE!

You forgot how they also like A verity of foods to eat and you get A bonus for such.

Pffft! Ale and sausages!

Quote from: Willie the Duck;979711How are the farmer's markets in CA?

I live in Hollyweird and I am a spoiled brat foodie. I'd be a pretentious hipster except I get really hungry and can't stand food trendiness.

Our farmer's markets are hit and miss. I buy $1 of stuff from a vendor, start chewing and decide if I'll buy more. Most of the time I won't. The better vendors put out bits for noshing and even then I often feel I'm paying x2 for 10% better, but I like to support mom & pop farms.

Overall though, I am getting concerned about a declining quality in produce.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;981206Crom laughs at your high-fructose corn syrup!

I nearly pee'd myself.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;981206So there's this fun little computer game, Mount & Blade. In it you have a guy running around having adventures, and they can pick up some followers, men-at-arms types. You don't have to feed them but if you don't they tend to get depressed and drift off after a bit. So it's wise to get food and put it in the inventory for them to eat up. And it's not just "food", it's cheese or milk or beef or whatever. This affects morale, they're happier with wine than bread, for example.

I recall on the forum for the game someone was asking what people liked to feed their guys, and one person said,
"My men eat what men eat - nothing but ale and sausages!"

So next time I played, I had this magic-user Iago, and he hired a bunch of men-at-arms, and supplied them with lots of ale and sausages. The DM said something about constipation but Iago wasn't listening.

Crom laughs at your high-fructose corn syrup! ALE AND SAUSAGES FOR EVERYONE!

  LOL.   I seem to always stuff my tired mercs with salted fish and bread.   Only for sieges do I spring for pork or ale.

Going back to the original question:

Is it really that expensive?

I bought the PHB when it first came out and I ran 5e quite easily with just that.

Yeah sure, I bought most of the books over time as they came out, but I didn't NEED them.
I've got 100s of hours entertainment out of these books running and playing 5e.

I goto a gaming club about twice a month to run open table DnD 5e and there's all sorts of ages of people running and playing 5e.

I DO note that not many of those people have bought any of the books at all, stating they're expensive and they can't afford them.
But at a break time they happily go off and spend $5+ on a coffee and $10+ on junk food.
Meanwhile, people borrow my books on the day, wearing them out faster.

I think if people CAN avoid paying for the books to spend their money on other luxuries, they WILL quite often.

To add to this, there's loads of Android Apps that cover many existing 5e material, so people justify not buying a PHB, as much of the material can be accessed free via these apps, but they're not as convenient and having phones at a table is distracting.

Quote from: danskmacabre;983035Going back to the original question:

Is it really that expensive?

Summary of viewpoints:

1. The cost of the three hardback D&D books has not kept up with inflation, so they haven't technically "gotten expensive".
2. The books are good "forever" and for an "infinite" number of play hours, so the amortized cost is insignificant, so they aren't expensive.
3. The books cost more than other systems by quite a bit, so seem expensive in today's market.

Quote from: Tod13;983055Summary of viewpoints:

1. The cost of the three hardback D&D books has not kept up with inflation, so they haven't technically "gotten expensive".
2. The books are good "forever" and for an "infinite" number of play hours, so the amortized cost is insignificant, so they aren't expensive.
3. The books cost more than other systems by quite a bit, so seem expensive in today's market.

There you go, I think the thread can be shut down now.

Quote from: Dumarest;983066There you go, I think the thread can be shut down now.

But I wanted to talk about crop rotation!

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;983080But I wanted to talk about crop rotation!

"That --ing zombie is going to end up on the end of a couple of --ing handy and versatile kebab skewers,' said Mr Tulip. 'An' then I'm gonna put an edge on this --ing spatula. An' then... then I'm gonna get medieval on his arse.'
There were more pressing problems, but this one intrigued Mr Pin.
'How, exactly?' he said.
'I thought maybe a maypole,' said Mr Tulip reflectively. 'An' then a display of country dancing, land tillage under the three-field system, several plagues and, if my --ing hand ain't too tired, the invention of the --ing horse collar."

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;983080But I wanted to talk about crop rotation!

My first thought was how characters trying to sneak up on a farm could be confronted by fields containing four different crops under the Norfolk four-course system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norfolk_four-course_system (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norfolk_four-course_system). Clover might be easier to walk through, but there are bulls and protective cows in that field...