Quote from: jibbajibba;787747This misses a trick though I think. There are people who can sell sand to arabs and convince their girlfriends that Stacey is one of the guys at the office sending texts just for a laugh.
What seems to a regular senible person to be insanity can seem supremely rationale if it comes from the right person who knows the buttons to press.

True, but it's down to the player to identify the buttons and then we use the roll to see how well the character presses them.

I've always had a tough time wrapping my head around how come in games where we don't ask the player to lift up heavy weights to mirror his PC's ST, where we don't base DX-based actions off of the player being able to tap dance, where the character's hit points bear no relation to the player's general health, and where we roll vs the PC's IQ to see if she knows a scientific fact, not poll the player herself, so many campaigns habitually base the PC's magnetism solely on the player's eloquence.

Using CHA in such a manner is not one single bit more difficult than checking against any other stat in any other system.  On a good roll, the mook is intimidated.  On a bad roll, the snitch just won't give you the time of day.  Okay, great speech on the player's part?  Give a modifier, the same way you'd indirectly reward a great battle tactic.  

But honestly?  I don't care if you whipped Abraham Lincoln and Adolf Hitler in the school debates, if you're a racial enemy of mine, if I'm sworn to your foe's cause, if your buddy over there just shot an arrow at me, I'm not going to roll over just because you're making snappy repartee.

Because tabletop RPGs are, at their core, conversation-based games? I don't think it is unreasonable for people who are good at improvised conversation to be advantaged in RPGs any more than it is unfair for people who are good at judging distances and probabilities to be advantaged in minis wargames - if you have a skill set which engages with the format you are going to do better than someone who doesn't, simple as.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;787560This doesn't apply to just D&D but RPGs with a charisma stat in general, but as a GM I find myself wondering when exactly we are supposed to ask for a check on this stat.

Normally you can just roleplay out a dialogue without any rolls at all. But then, since there is a CHA stat, you want it to actually be useful rather than a dump stat; that means that there should be situations where rolling it would be required, or at last some situations where it is the appropriate move instead of just talking it out.

When exactly do you look for a charisma check? Suppose player A is trying to convince NPC B of something. You could technically roll a charisma check at any point during the discussion, but what exactly would prompt it?

What is the effect of such influence? It is to tip the scale a little one way or the other. The substance of the matter and how it is presented are the main factors. Really bad, and finesse may win you a quick death rather than a slow one; good enough, and there's no gilding of the lily for a smooth operator to accomplish.

As for when precisely, I would say initially, to assess how good a foot is put forth - how *receptive* a disposition the other character has - so that can inform the dialog. It would be odd for someone suddenly to turn on a dime because a toss of the dice gives a result out of keeping with the tenor of the conversation. There should be clues to the attitude along the way.

I tend to use reaction rolls a lot and charisma influences that.

Also don't forget resisted rolls. If you and your enemy are both trying to convince the Baron of Lichtenstein to support your cause, I would call for a Charisma check.

There are reaction rolls- made when first encountering someone .

There are morale rolls- made whenever henchmen or hirelings face a fight or flight situation.

Charisma is important in both cases. The higher your charisma, the more likely strangers will react favorably toward you and your henchmen will generally have a higher loyalty to you.


Beyond that. Not very much CHA rolling at all.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;787785There are reaction rolls- made when first encountering someone .

There are morale rolls- made whenever henchmen or hirelings face a fight or flight situation.

Charisma is important in both cases. The higher your charisma, the more likely strangers will react favorably toward you and your henchmen will generally have a higher loyalty to you.


Beyond that. Not very much CHA rolling at all.

This is about all I think it's useful for when it comes to PCs. I find it useful for portraying NPCs, or for NPC-NPC interactions, but otherwise just talk.

Quote from: Ravenswing;787772I've always had a tough time wrapping my head around how come in games where we don't ask the player to lift up heavy weights to mirror his PC's ST, where we don't base DX-based actions off of the player being able to tap dance, where the character's hit points bear no relation to the player's general health,

Because there is no way to use physical characteristics in the real world to directly impact physical actions in the game world. I can't actually arm wrestle an orc.

Quoteand where we roll vs the PC's IQ to see if she knows a scientific fact, not poll the player herself, so many campaigns habitually base the PC's magnetism solely on the player's eloquence.

I don't like this either. The thing I dislike about Int/Wis/Cha and similar stats is that the player can use their mental characteristics to directly impact their character's actions and interactions with other players and the GMs characters. I'm increasingly of the opinion that unless the player can't directly influence the outcome (physical and supernatural stats the prime ones) you shouldn't have stats for them.

Quote from: apparition13;787808Because there is no way to use physical characteristics in the real world to directly impact physical actions in the game world. I can't actually arm wrestle an orc.

No you can't arm wrestle the orc, but you could shoot foam darts at the orc's miniature to simulate hitting him with an arrow. But despite H.G. Wells and Little Wars, nobody I know does that when playing RPGs. Even though they could.

Quote from: pspahn;787783I tend to use reaction rolls a lot and charisma influences that.

Yes, that's a good example - if the PCs have already convinced an NPC that they are friends they won't need to roll CHA much unless their requests are outrageous, but the trick is getting the NPC to warm to them in the first place.

QuoteAlso don't forget resisted rolls. If you and your enemy are both trying to convince the Baron of Lichtenstein to support your cause, I would call for a Charisma check.

Another good example of a situation I'd use rolls for, provided that both sides were making reasonable-sounding offers.

When to roll for Charisma?  Whenever the conversation reaches a point where the NPC would react to what the PC has said, or when something changes.

PC:  Good morning.
NPC:  (roll reaction check with CHA modifer... what mood is he in?) * rolls 2 * Bugger off, I'm busy.
PC:  Too bad, I wanted to buy a sword and spend at least 5000GP.
NPC:  (roll again with CHA mod and bonus for money) * rolls 6, plus bonuses for 10* Well, sir, come in, sit down, make yourself comfortable!  etc etc

I find social folks useful for getting people to do things they wouldn't want to do or otherwise giving something mechanical legs.

'I want to sell this to you for normal price.'
"Ok."
No roll needed.

'This small dull rock is exactually a magic charm you should totally buy from me!'
"Holy poot! Have my money!"
Roll.

But only to a point.

'This small rock signifies that I am the reincarnation of the Jade Emperor. Give me all your stuff.'
"Fuck off."
No roll.

Spreading rumors, creating a reputation, etiquette, contacts, good times to roll.


I also prefer to treat high Charisma as a 'passive' value for general cases to determine how people are seen. I don't like the 'roll for everything' model that often results in competent people suddenly farting or falling off horses or whatnot, unless something really stressful is going on.

I also use CHA rolls for NPCs when the players meet them. If they get a good roll the NPC will be really charming if they fuck up they will come across as obnoxious in some way. Course this means you as GM need to have the range to handle the different effects (you can't say this guy is really amusing or he hits you with a sweet opening line etc ..)

Best Social system in any game is of course Seduction rules in James Bond 007 years ahead that game years ahead.

You could use the roll for scenarios where you don't have a default option planned out for the NPC.

But doesn't that just mean you should think through the NPC more and what they WOULD say? Even when you'd roll dice for that, you could flesh out the character in your mind instead and then not need the dice anymore.

Same for when the PCs are trying to get the NPC to warm up to them. Instead of rolling that, they could just play that out.

I play a lot of games where social aspects are important. Therefor I have developed following method to make sure that everyone can somehow add something to game: It is simply goal --> overall strategy --> first impression --> playing the thing.

First, players are given some time for preparing to it. The end end result of this is that player states what is her "goal" for evening. For example having fun, meeting queen and asking for a favour, etc.

Second question I put forwards is the general "strategy". This means how to dress, with whom you go out and what if any aces you have in your sleeve. For example one woman dressed very daringly make everyone notice her with intention of using this attention to take lead in evening and show everyone she is in charge of this social circle. This was added to fact that she knew secret of hostess and could use it to make herself even more prominent. Another walked dutifully with her parents to show she is part of her family and not making any waves. This means that players who are good in plotting have definite edge.

Third is the roll of initial impression (with bonuses based on previous two questions) which shows were you queen of the night or mere dressed in most vulgar manner. Alternatively you might have caught eye or just been another wall flower. Preparation pays as this gives you extra edge in following rolls.

Based on initial impression you learn how your strategy is going on. Now player can abort and play safe or continue. Playing safe means minimizing the damage and continuing means going forwards. (I am thinking of making more choices but so far these two approaches work fairly well.)

Then character interaction is role played and I roll what the other side thought of it. I add bonuses as necessary. I is important NOT to play out (discuss between players and GM) actual dialogues as they are very time consuming unless the die roll is very favourable and/or disastrous. In those cases hamming it up to Nth degree is fun and everyone has great time. Choice quotes: "But surely you are so brave you face the evil enemy at the vanguard!" or "I would rather die than attend your mother's ball. Her reputation is nothing short of shameful."

Next step is aftermath. Player doing well might join the grandee for extra information (GM drops hints and secrets) or even take lead (possible if character styles match) or cause anything between duels to mecha demonstrations. This can be nothing at all or even a mini-adventure.

In my view the social aspects of role playing need to take into account that great deal many players are shy and have real problems coming out with truly witty banter. however, every player can and should be able to decide what are her goals, how she strives to achieve it in general manner and should have freedom to abort or push forwards at her own initiative.

Reaction rolls, and modifying NPC followers/hireling's morale.

As for when to do a reaction check? When a REACTION is needed for an NPC (hence the name).  It should be modified by the charisma bonus of the PC, and, potentially moreso, by the particular tact the PC is taking.

So if you have a guy who has almost no interest in gold, and the PC offers him a bribe, it doesn't matter if he has 18 Cha, he should still have almost no chance of getting a good reaction there.