Quote from: Ned the Lonely DonkeyHm, you can use hero points or whatever they are called to add to your powers, or buy new powers. One of the problems is that supers in the comics don't change that much - if you look at SPidey, there's been the black costume (which turned out to be at least 50% plot device) and this new armour thing I'm not sure of because I don't ready Spidey anymore. But really, the vital changes to the character have been the death of Gwen Stacey, leaving college, marrying MJ and all that.
Ned

I disagree with this: Spider-man started out as being very much a neophyte, and he became more competent over time. But the real reason I want the levelling is because that serves the arc of a campaign better: I want the player characters to start as neophytes and become legendary over the course of the campaign. That way I can structure adventures around beating up a few thugs and underlings, and working their way up to the boss villian. At some point I want the characters to be able to say "back when I started out, 3 or 4 punks would have been a challenge, but now I can take on ten of them without breaking a sweat..."

Once they get to a certain level, they'll be characters that other neophyte heroes will totally look up to because of all theyve accomplished.

 And like Blakkie said (for once I agree with him) there are plenty of comics where characters uncover powers they 'never knew they had' or 'develop a new suit of armor' or whatever. One recent example that I thought was pretty cool was in the animated Danny Phantom show- the ghost kid recently developed ice powers. He's always had this hint of 'coldness' when ghosts show up, but suddenly he unlocks something and he develops his ice powers. Thats cool.

Here's my personal campaign axiom: characters must develop as much as possible in play and not before play begins.

Quote from: GabrielWell, superhero comics tend to be about battles.


If you don't want sessions to be about battles, then tell the GM you'd like more role-playing oriented sessions.

Heh, I was the GM in those sessions and there was plenty of roleplaying, and detective shit and soapy stuff of our own invention. I talked to the players before the game about their characters and stuff they'd like to do - there was the amulet stuff, a flash-back session where a player played his PC's grandfather, "surprise" revelations, the whole bit.  I'd just come off a huge Marvel Essentials jag (mostly F4 and Spidey) and was totally in the zone.

Problem was, that every time we came to the denoument, the game stopped dead with all the "mental aerobics" mentioned up thread. The combats were not freewheeling and exciting, the fucking boring. It was a fucking great game, except for the combats which made me want to slit my wrists.

Quote from: GabrielPlus, how much time a combat takes in a given system depends on how familiar everyone is with it.

The speed of a system is always going to be limited by the chunkiness of the system itself. The speed of light is a constant, you know.


EDIT Abysmal Maw: That sounds like a cool type of game, but if you look at M&M you will see that it's all about character archetypes. Look at the templates or whatever they are at the front of the book. That sounds like a cool game, but it's not how the authors of M&M imagine it being played.

Ned

QuoteEDIT Abysmal Maw: That sounds like a cool type of game, but if you look at M&M you will see that it's all about character archetypes. Look at the templates or whatever they are at the front of the book. That sounds like a cool game, but it's not how the authors of M&M imagine it being played.

Oh, I totally know. I wrote a 'hack' of the campaign assumption that had the characters starting at level 7 and going up in levels once every 3 sessions. (Instead of starting out at 10 and staying there). It was a very flawed hack, because the campaign assumption of level 10 means everyone has nearly all of their powers maxed for that level. So we had to add in a second 'respec' rule that allowed for some shifting around of power points upon levelling up. (Again, thats how CoH does it).  We used the 'Hall of Heroes' (spreadsheet-based character sheet) for all of the calculations. It worked, kinda, but it was a bit unpredictable. We totally broke away from archetypes: we had one guy that made up a bunch of magic items. We had one guy that was a shapeshifter/elastic dude. One dude could control plants, and one guy had all 'negative energy/darkforce' powers which we cobbled together out of drain and energy blast.

What I want is a generally playable system that starts at level 1 and still gives PCs a wide advantage over 'mooks'- such that even a 1st level guy can take on 3 or 4 common thugs. DC Heroes does this really well.

I'll have to check out Silver Age Sentinels.

QuoteWhat I want is a generally playable system that starts at level 1 and still gives PCs a wide advantage over 'mooks'- such that even a 1st level guy can take on 3 or 4 common thugs. DC Heroes does this really well.

You still have issues trying to take it through the full range that D&D proper does. Because D&D PCs are mooks that end up as godlings. If you start that far above mooks and try to advance at roughly the same rate as D&D you hit the crazy godling levels a lot sooner. Next thing you know you are looking at Superman spinning the earth backwards to reverse time and going "hah, so it's amateur night?"

EDIT2: So I guess you'd be roughly playing Nobilis power levels and above then?

EDIT: Besides it is nice to be able to slide in new characters into an active game and have them mean at least something. You can do this and still have a power curve of some sort. For example SR does this with their wide range of very different tasks with lots that are not combat orientated, so combat is just another aspect of the Skill system as opposed to the central core in D&D. I've never played CoH (left MMOs many, many years ago), so I don't recall what their plan is for allowing lower level characters to adventure with higher level ones?

Maybe the new Black Industries DC Heroes game will be "the one that does it right".

i had roughly the same feelings about M&M as Ned, but through my rose-colored glasses of nostalgia, i think TSR's Marvel Super Heroes was the best superhero game i've played.  (of course, it was the mid-80's, and said glasses double as beer goggles on occasion, so ymmv.)

Quote from: SpikeTo all the people who think that RPG's can't do Supers well, due to the 'necessity' of handling the soap opera dramatics...


WTF age did you start reading comics?  Did you NEVER read them and wish that you had the cool power.... I mean Kewl Powerz of Iron Man??? Or Superman? Nobody ever read a comic book and jumped off the bed wearing a bathtowel as a cape going 'I can fly'???

You want soap operas? Watch daytime Television. I hear Days of Our Lives is still going strong.  

Now... if you'll excuse me my roof is calling to me. Bathtowelman to the rescue!!!

QFT

KEWL POWERZ AWAAAAAYY!

QuoteYou want soap operas? Watch daytime Television. I hear Days of Our Lives is still going strong.

Nah, watch Guiding Light. You can get Soap Opera and Marvel Superhero all at the same time.

Quote from: kregmosieri had roughly the same feelings about M&M as Ned, but through my rose-colored glasses of nostalgia, i think TSR's Marvel Super Heroes was the best superhero game i've played.  (of course, it was the mid-80's, and said glasses double as beer goggles on occasion, so ymmv.)

Having played both a few sessions of M&M and a crapload of Champions, I think I agree with you.  The old Marvel game really captured the free-wheeling wahoo nature of the 70's & 80's Marvel universe and made a solid effort to try to encourage the soap operatics that form the backbone of Spidey-style stories.

Quote from: jrientsHaving played both a few sessions of M&M and a crapload of Champions, I think I agree with you.  The old Marvel game really captured the free-wheeling wahoo nature of the 70's & 80's Marvel universe and made a solid effort to try to encourage the soap operatics that form the backbone of Spidey-style stories.

Really? What did they do to encourage that? It's been a while and I just remember that I was seriously pissed off that your "Karma" went to 0 if you killed someone. I so damn wanted to be Wolverine.
(who couldn't damage anything cause his Strength was too low...)

Ned:
You might like Truth and Justice--its "combat" mechanic allows damage ('fallout/setbacks actually') too trigger emotional soap opera stuff. That is if you have "Good Ranked Relationship with Daughter" as a trait--it can be used to bolster your PC in some instances--like rescuing her, or giving you a reason to break free from mind control. As well as letting you take damage to that trait--and thus strain your relationship.

Hearts & Souls works differently--"damage" being one form of setback, but so too are: accidental deaths of loved ones, being captured, having relationships fall apart because your too stressed out to give them time.

Both games give systems that allow soap opera stuff. Neither one /forces/ it in play (sort of T&J more or less will if you're first attribute damaged is one soap opera style ones--that's the future 'plot hook' rule..)


You might examine Truth & Justice--it sounds like it might be what your interested in rules wise...

Quote from: SilverlionNed:
You might examine Truth & Justice--it sounds like it might be what your interested in rules wise...

Yeah, I've heard of that one and will definitely give it a look next time we take up the supers baton. It could well be what I'm looking for.

Ned

Quote from: SosthenesReally? What did they do to encourage that? It's been a while and I just remember that I was seriously pissed off that your "Karma" went to 0 if you killed someone. I so damn wanted to be Wolverine.
(who couldn't damage anything cause his Strength was too low...)

That's not true. Wolverine could damage most people he had Good Strength. (That's 10 points of damage and with his claws he did Excellant Damage--that's 20 the same damage as a machine pistol, or twice that of a standard "rifle" in game)*

I suspect the GM was screwing you over with too tough body armor badies. The real issues is most people tended to think of 'high end'--when thugs might have 28 health, and even 'experienced' ones have 32 (hitmen, enforcers etc)--20 points of damage is a lot of health. Plus if its not-organic armor--say Mandroid or Sentinels--Wolverine could use the MATERIAL STRENGTH of his claws as damage aimed to shred the armor (but that only damaged the armor, not the person/robot) on the next attack striking the same spot, he did damage ignoring armor. All of this is from the rules in the MSH Advanced set.




Karma in the game was awarded for stopping crimes. But also for fulfilling commitments--job, dates, life. As well as doing some superheroic thngs that were sort of media related. Showing up to a supermarket opening got you Karma.


And, to be fair. Wolverine didn't kill nearly as many people as most fans of the character think. (Injure and maim yes--Cole, Macon and Reese for example.)

That and he isn't the type to rely on luck--but instead skill (that fighting plus talents)



*Plus if he can get Kill attacks with a red result--as long as he does even 1 point of damage to his foes with his claws.

Quote from: SosthenesReally? What did they do to encourage that? It's been a while and I just remember that I was seriously pissed off that your "Karma" went to 0 if you killed someone. I so damn wanted to be Wolverine.
(who couldn't damage anything cause his Strength was too low...)

The Karma system also awarded and penalized you based upon keeping your private life in order.  There was a distinct mechanical advantage to finishing your fight with the Criminator in time to make your date with Legs Callahan.

The random encounter rules, while embryonic in form, also pushed the soap opera angle as I recall.

Quote from: SilverlionThat's not true. Wolverine could damage most people he had Good Strength. (That's 10 points of damage and with his claws he did Excellant Damage--that's 20 the same damage as a machine pistol, or twice that of a standard "rifle" in game)*

I suspect the GM was screwing you over with too tough body armor badies.

That was the point, he should get through armor. His damage in toto might not be as high, but with his claws, body armor should be no hindrance to Wolvie. If I remember correctly, the advanced edition did this better....

Quote from: SilverlionAnd, to be fair. Wolverine didn't kill nearly as many people as most fans of the character think. (Injure and maim yes--Cole, Macon and Reese for example.)

Yeah, but the statistics I had showed him with 0 Karma. As opposed to Captain America, the self-righteous prick.
(No offense, I've grown to like Cap later on)

Yeah, Wolverine's stats were re-worked as people caught on to the fact that he could barely chew through kevlar, much less Sentinels and crap.