I remember Shadow of the Demon Lord got lots of discussion...and then poof.
I've never seen in any game stores.
Anyone playing it?
Roleplaying game publishers don't really market their products. They just sort of rely on blogging and word of mouth.
I hear its good though. I'd order a copy if I didn't think the customs officials would confiscate it.
I've seen it in game stores. It is close to a one man show so it probably can do okay if it keeps a steady following.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1012073I remember Shadow of the Demon Lord got lots of discussion...and then poof.
I've never seen in any game stores.
Anyone playing it?
It's doing well enough that there's a new release every fortnight. I believe it's up to 100+ products. I've got most of them in PDF; I've never seen a copy in meatspace.
I haven't played it yet but it's definitely on the list of games I will run one day.
Never even heard of it. Tell us what it is.
Quote from: Dumarest;1012154Never even heard of it. Tell us what it is.
It's like 5E D&D, except that it's FUCKING METAL.
it is a dark fantasy RPG where things are going to shit because the Demon Lord has turned his eye to the . This, as you may imagine, has stirred up all the monsters, fey, lesser demons, etc. So brave individuals (the PCs) have to fight back against this. PCs typically have between 1 and 10 levels. You start in one of the 4 basic careers, and then about level 3 or 4 you pick one of 16 expert careers, and then at level 7 or so, you take one of the 64 master careers, so you have a lot of options for character customization. As for what form the Demon Lord actually takes, this is never set in stone anywhere, but you instead get a bunch of options, the fall of magic, an ancient dragon, an erupting volcano, etc.
All of this is just the core book. Additional books offer additional options such as new character races, new careers, new spells, etc. One of the biggest supplements is the Godless book which changes the setting to a Mad Max style post-apocalyptic wasteland complete with cobbled together cars. Another book offers a look at hacking the game into space opera.
I have the pdf but I have yet to actually read it because I am so goddamn tired of edgelordy dark fantasy.
(that and the author said he had 500 pages worth of rules for the book but would only release X pages based on how high the kickstarter reached)
It does have it's own setting, but it's as much as a framework for a type of game as it is a game itself. It's designed to do a really cool "You save the world or watch it die." campaign and then you're done. No extended campaign here, you're in at start of school and out by summer.
Aside from the main book, the whole thing is a couple decent-sized pdfs and tons of stuff stuff like 4-6 page adventures. Also sourcebooks like this:
Quote from: Go Beyond the Edge of the World!
What's beyond the Auroral Ocean? Where did the human conquerors come from? Is there anything north of the Desolation? What awaits those who set sail across the Nyxian? The answers to these questions and more are contained inside this expansion to the world of Shadow of the Demon Lord. Each chapter goes beyond the edge of the map, offering a plethora of strange places inhabited by stranger denizens that characters might befriend or overcome. Loaded with adventure ideas and new creatures, this book will inspire Game Masters to take their campaigns Beyond the World's Edge!
Must not be all that much beyond the edge of the world, it's 34 pages and that's with new creatures which means statblocks.
If you're the type of GM who wants to purchase bullet points to go completely flesh out yourself, the supplemental stuff is for you. If you'd rather have a complete adventure that you can adjust to taste or completely dissemble and use elsewhere, not so much. Aside from a couple good examples, this is not the RPG for people who are not Dyson Logos.
The main book is cool, and if I had unlimited time I'd run it, but if I want "Dark Fantasy" there's Dragon Age, WFRP3 or Zweihander, LotFP, Symbaroum and other stuff that I would probably go to first.
Sounds a bit like WHFRP, but not enough to get me to buy another game I will probably never play.
Quote from: remial;1012189it is a dark fantasy RPG where things are going to shit because the Demon Lord has turned his eye to the . This, as you may imagine, has stirred up all the monsters, fey, lesser demons, etc. So brave individuals (the PCs) have to fight back against this. PCs typically have between 1 and 10 levels. You start in one of the 4 basic careers, and then about level 3 or 4 you pick one of 16 expert careers, and then at level 7 or so, you take one of the 64 master careers, so you have a lot of options for character customization. As for what form the Demon Lord actually takes, this is never set in stone anywhere, but you instead get a bunch of options, the fall of magic, an ancient dragon, an erupting volcano, etc.
All of this is just the core book. Additional books offer additional options such as new character races, new careers, new spells, etc. One of the biggest supplements is the Godless book which changes the setting to a Mad Max style post-apocalyptic wasteland complete with cobbled together cars. Another book offers a look at hacking the game into space opera.
I have the pdf but I have yet to actually read it because I am so goddamn tired of edgelordy dark fantasy.
(that and the author said he had 500 pages worth of rules for the book but would only release X pages based on how high the kickstarter reached)
reminds me, more or less, of classic Japanese RPG and fantasy anime
It's a fantastic love letter to WFRP, I think the author (Robert Schwalb) may have worked on the WFRP line in the past. Production values are high, and line support is insanely good as mentioned above.
Character creation and advancement is great - enhanced version of 1e/2e, includes racial levelling for want of a better description.
The game runs fast and smooth, with some excellent mechanical touches.
I can't speak any about the worldbuilding, and with Zweihander out and 4e on the horizon, I won't be investing any.
It's a mix of the WFRP tone (disease, corruption, insanity, etc.) with D&D staples (things named as paladins, druids, clerics. etc. and doing pretty much what you'd expect from them in D&D). It's made for fast play, so the rules are pretty simple overall and you could certainly have someone ready to play within 20 minutes of sitting at the table.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1012073I remember Shadow of the Demon Lord got lots of discussion...and then poof.
I've never seen in any game stores.
Anyone playing it?
GM'd a campaign this past summer. If you're in London, you can pick it up from Orc's Nest (last time I was there, at least, which was like back in Jan this year).
It's wicked sick, bruv. The group leveling, scenario-based progression and the paths system is what I got it for and dude, I do not regret it in the slightest. Fuck D&D's class/XP progression and WHFRP's restrictive careers system, this
is the third way.
Quote from: Scrivener of Doom;1012153It's doing well enough that there's a new release every fortnight. I believe it's up to 100+ products. I've got most of them in PDF; I've never seen a copy in meatspace.
I haven't played it yet but it's definitely on the list of games I will run one day.
Run it or play it. Like ASAP. Seriously, this game is fucking good. Whatever you were planning, just leave that and do this game.
Quote from: remial;1012189it is a dark fantasy RPG where things are going to shit because the Demon Lord has turned his eye to the . This, as you may imagine, has stirred up all the monsters, fey, lesser demons, etc. So brave individuals (the PCs) have to fight back against this. PCs typically have between 1 and 10 levels. You start in one of the 4 basic careers, and then about level 3 or 4 you pick one of 16 expert careers, and then at level 7 or so, you take one of the 64 master careers, so you have a lot of options for character customization. As for what form the Demon Lord actually takes, this is never set in stone anywhere, but you instead get a bunch of options, the fall of magic, an ancient dragon, an erupting volcano, etc.
All of this is just the core book. Additional books offer additional options such as new character races, new careers, new spells, etc. One of the biggest supplements is the Godless book which changes the setting to a Mad Max style post-apocalyptic wasteland complete with cobbled together cars. Another book offers a look at hacking the game into space opera.
I have the pdf but I have yet to actually read it because I am so goddamn tired of edgelordy dark fantasy.
(that and the author said he had 500 pages worth of rules for the book but would only release X pages based on how high the kickstarter reached)
Dude, at least read the book before you start opinionatin' on the system.
You pick Expert Path at lvl 3 and you get your get your Ancestry benefit at 4. For completion's sake on the critical lvls, you start at lvl 0 with no Path (this is like one of best design decisions ever), you pick your Novice Path at lvl 1 and your Master Path at 7.
'Book eschews Warhammer's generally shite setting (outside of some novels that actually make it work) and keeps itself dark fantasy with a heavy twist of steampunk. You could run Thief in the setting if you switch Cult of the New God to Hammerites and the followers of the Old Gods to Pagans and locked PC Paths to Rogue 'n' Thief 'n' shit.
Quote from: CRKrueger;1012205It does have it's own setting, but it's as much as a framework for a type of game as it is a game itself. It's designed to do a really cool "You save the world or watch it die." campaign and then you're done. No extended campaign here, you're in at start of school and out by summer.
Aside from the main book, the whole thing is a couple decent-sized pdfs and tons of stuff stuff like 4-6 page adventures. Also sourcebooks like this:
Must not be all that much beyond the edge of the world, it's 34 pages and that's with new creatures which means statblocks.
If you're the type of GM who wants to purchase bullet points to go completely flesh out yourself, the supplemental stuff is for you. If you'd rather have a complete adventure that you can adjust to taste or completely dissemble and use elsewhere, not so much. Aside from a couple good examples, this is not the RPG for people who are not Dyson Logos.
The main book is cool, and if I had unlimited time I'd run it, but if I want "Dark Fantasy" there's Dragon Age, WFRP3 or Zweihander, LotFP, Symbaroum and other stuff that I would probably go to first.
Dragon Age suffers too much from OWOD syndrome in that your shit doesn't matter unlike what's been written in the lore already and what happens in the computer games. I really would not go for that based on wanting to play "dark fantasy".
The rest honestly don't compare. They just don't. Do SOTDL first. It'll scratch that itch and then pop the pustule.
Quote from: DavetheLost;1012207Sounds a bit like WHFRP, but not enough to get me to buy another game I will probably never play.
You don't buy this game for the setting (which is perfectly serviceable), you buy it for the system. It's objectively better than the WHRP system just because of Paths alone not being shitefest of being purposefully badly designed and balanced.
Quote from: Motorskills;1012399It's a fantastic love letter to WFRP, I think the author (Robert Schwalb) may have worked on the WFRP line in the past. Production values are high, and line support is insanely good as mentioned above.
Character creation and advancement is great - enhanced version of 1e/2e, includes racial levelling for want of a better description.
The game runs fast and smooth, with some excellent mechanical touches.
I can't speak any about the worldbuilding, and with Zweihander out and 4e on the horizon, I won't be investing any.
I'm happy for Schwalb that he's able to keep pumping out more material for the game even though it's been out for like two years now and he's doing it all by himself sans art and editing.
Quote from: HappyDaze;1012425It's a mix of the WFRP tone (disease, corruption, insanity, etc.) with D&D staples (things named as paladins, druids, clerics. etc. and doing pretty much what you'd expect from them in D&D). It's made for fast play, so the rules are pretty simple overall and you could certainly have someone ready to play within 20 minutes of sitting at the table.
Yep.
For those on here who like random rolls (which is, like, 50% of you), char crea can be done almost entirely through random rolls. I left it up to the players to decide how much rolling and choosing they did and got a pretty good mix of both.
Anytime someone feels compelled to shit upon other games in order to try and sell their own preference to others, it generally unsells it to me.
Quote from: TrippyHippy;1012602Anytime someone feels compelled to shit upon other games in order to try and sell their own preference to others, it generally unsells it to me.
Direct that passive-aggressiveness towards the posters on here stating viewpoints and being generally dismissive of it without having played the game.
It looks like a cool game, and I've heard good things about it. Unfortunately, my group isn't up for trying new versions of d20 when 5e works fine.
If I bought Shadows of the Demon Lord it would probably just collect dust next to my 13th Age and FantasyCraft games (which I also never get to play). Another well-made fantasy heart-breaker.
Quote from: PrometheanVigil;1012603Direct that passive-aggressiveness towards the posters on here stating viewpoints and being generally dismissive of it without having played the game.
I'm directing at you.
Quote from: Robyo;1012650It looks like a cool game, and I've heard good things about it. Unfortunately, my group isn't up for trying new versions of d20 when 5e works fine.
If I bought Shadows of the Demon Lord it would probably just collect dust next to my 13th Age and FantasyCraft games (which I also never get to play). Another well-made fantasy heart-breaker.
SotDL isn't really d20 as I understand it. It advances characters quite differently (a hybrid of class/level and WFRP career paths), monsters and spells are done somewhat differently, there are few fixed bonuses and penalties (with boons and banes taken in dice-generated variable amounts), and magic items are pretty unusual. In fact, other than rolling a d20 for most task resolution, there's not a direct link to the d20 mechanics in there. As for links to D&D, there's a lot of links to be found in the names and themes.
Quote from: remial;1012189(snip) I have the pdf but I have yet to actually read it because I am so goddamn tired of edgelordy dark fantasy.
(that and the author said he had 500 pages worth of rules for the book but would only release X pages based on how high the kickstarter reached)
Firstly, it's not that sort of pretentious dark fantasy. It's a world gone to heck but the PCs do have hope of making a difference.
Secondly, your comment implies that something necessary was left out of the book. It wasn't. Sure, the size of the book was determined by the Kickstarter but that's because a bigger book costs more money. But what's there is more than enough to run multiple campaigns and the rest of the "500 pages" has been showing up in other products.
Quote from: PrometheanVigil;1012464(snip) Run it or play it. Like ASAP. Seriously, this game is fucking good. Whatever you were planning, just leave that and do this game. (snip)
I expect I will one day but by 4E campaign takes priority for now.
Quote from: PrometheanVigil;1012464(snip) You don't buy this game for the setting (which is perfectly serviceable), you buy it for the system. It's objectively better than the WHRP system just because of Paths alone not being shitefest of being purposefully badly designed and balanced.(snip)
I maintain it's a better generic D&D system than 5E. It's more of an evolution and revolution than 5E, too, but that doesn't scratch the nostalgia itch that so many 5E fans seem to have.
If I were to run it, I would probably use it to run Midnight.
Quote from: PrometheanVigil;1012464The group leveling, scenario-based progression and the paths system is what I got it for and dude, I do not regret it in the slightest. Fuck D&D's class/XP progression and WHFRP's restrictive careers system, this is the third way.
Explain!!
Quote from: PrometheanVigil;1012464It'll scratch that itch and then pop the pustule.
Now that's a tasty quote.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1012861Explain!!
this is one thing I _do_ know about the game. like was said before, you (apparently) start at level 0, then at level 1, you pick one of 4 Novice careers (basically fighter, wizard, cleric, and thief).
then at level 3, you pick one of 16 different Expert careers (they are grouped into 4 groups of 4, with each group loosely linked to one of the Novice careers, but none of them really have prerequisites).
at level 7 you pick your Master career, one of 64 (which I'll assume are similarly linked loosely to the Expert careers, but again, you are pretty free to pick what you want).
and that is just the core book. there are supplements that provide additional expert and master careers.
So, if you wanted to, you could start off as (I'm not using the actual career names here) a thief, but you keep getting into fights with say, giants, so you take a the fighter themed giant slayer career, then you get back to town, and end up having to fight ice demons. Well, what better way to fight a ice demons than with fire spells? so you take Pyromancer as your master career.
you try doing that in D&D or WFRP and you have to jump through a whole mess of hoops and prerequisites.
Quote from: remial;1012873this is one thing I _do_ know about the game. like was said before, you (apparently) start at level 0, then at level 1, you pick one of 4 Novice careers (basically fighter, wizard, cleric, and thief).
then at level 3, you pick one of 16 different Expert careers (they are grouped into 4 groups of 4, with each group loosely linked to one of the Novice careers, but none of them really have prerequisites).
at level 7 you pick your Master career, one of 64 (which I'll assume are similarly linked loosely to the Expert careers, but again, you are pretty free to pick what you want).
and that is just the core book. there are supplements that provide additional expert and master careers.
So, if you wanted to, you could start off as (I'm not using the actual career names here) a thief, but you keep getting into fights with say, giants, so you take a the fighter themed giant slayer career, then you get back to town, and end up having to fight ice demons. Well, what better way to fight a ice demons than with fire spells? so you take Pyromancer as your master career.
you try doing that in D&D or WFRP and you have to jump through a whole mess of hoops and prerequisites.
Note that the guy that goes Rogue/Fighter/Pyromancer will suffer from the lack of focus, primarily in having a low Power which will limit his spell options. Of course, he's also got a broad range of other options to fall back on, so it might be worth it.
In addition to what was said, there is an additional Novice path (Adept) in, IIRC, Forbidden Rules (or was it Companion 2?) and several new Ancestries (race/species) in several books.
Quote from: HappyDaze;1012786SotDL isn't really d20 as I understand it. It advances characters quite differently (a hybrid of class/level and WFRP career paths), monsters and spells are done somewhat differently, there are few fixed bonuses and penalties (with boons and banes taken in dice-generated variable amounts), and magic items are pretty unusual. In fact, other than rolling a d20 for most task resolution, there's not a direct link to the d20 mechanics in there. As for links to D&D, there's a lot of links to be found in the names and themes.
Cool, I will check it out. It does sound different, yet familiar. Maybe I can get some D&D players to try it.
Apparently the core book doesn't have much setting material. What supplements do?
Quote from: Robyo;1012910Cool, I will check it out. It does sound different, yet familiar. Maybe I can get some D&D players to try it.
Apparently the core book doesn't have much setting material. What supplements do?
The setting material is dispersed, but mostly found in the Lands in Shadow Series that includes Borderlands of Tear, Caecras, Freeholds of Nar, Grand Duchy, Kingdom of God and others. The books on devils (Exquisite Agony) and the underworld add quite a bit of setting backstory as does the religion book (Uncertain Faith) and the Fey book (Terrible Beauty). I liked the book on the Jotun, A Glorious Death, for the treatment of that people and the Blutlands.
Still, most setting material is more suggestive than definitive so a GM that wants lots of hard details is likely to have to do much of that himself.
Quote from: HappyDaze;1012897Note that the guy that goes Rogue/Fighter/Pyromancer will suffer from the lack of focus, primarily in having a low Power which will limit his spell options. Of course, he's also got a broad range of other options to fall back on, so it might be worth it.
oh yeah, the example I used is going to be completely buggered over the lack of focus, he was just an example of what you COULD do, not what you SHOULD do
I was not a big fan of game, despite backing the original Kickstarter. It suffers from gross imbalance issues at higher tiers. The background is alright tho, albeit derivative of WFRP on steroids where Chaos is Everywhere.
Quote from: FeloniousMonk;1013121I was not a big fan of game, despite backing the original Kickstarter. It suffers from gross imbalance issues at higher tiers. The background is alright tho, albeit derivative of WFRP on steroids where Chaos is Everywhere.
Can you give any examples of these "gross imbalance issues" and how do they compare with imbalance issues seen in high-level D&D5e?
Quote from: Spinachcat;1012861Explain!!
You start at lvl 0 and do 1-2 seshes. This is the prologue: a simple zombie is a
fucking nightmare to take on at this lvl.
GM then says you advance to lvl 1 and this is where you get the first taste of the real meat of the system. You pick your Novice Path. The fantasy RPG archetypes are what you pick from and there are four of them. Lvl 2 is the augmentation of your Lvl 1 pick and each Path gains an additional ability such as doing an additional 1d6 DMG EVERY attack. These lvls are still pretty scary but at least you have a chance of fighting back.
Lvl 3 is where you pick your Expert Path. This is the closest to "classes" that this game gets. From this point on, you start to see serious diversity in the party (whereas in my home game of six players, four people were sharing Novice Paths). Choice
matters. Wizards are power casters, they are BEASTS even from lvl 3. There is a specialist crafting class titled Artificer and in "bigger" parties (six is tiny for me, being real), these guys mean the difference between life and death for anyone using ammo or relying on armor (i.e. EVERYONE). Assassins are nasty fuckers (if you surprise/stealth attack a creature, it has to make a save or take damage equal to its total health -- it's a silent instant kill ability) and Rangers are actually more commando-hunters than "fighting druids" like D&D (they get to change their Favoured Enemy every rest, which is super useful, beasts at tracking and ambush detection too).
From this point on, it's augmentation frenzy. Once you hit lvl 7, you pick a Master Path and these are not "prestige classes" but are more like super-augs. They give a character a particular focus in a given area. They are not tied to any previous path, you freely choose one. Scouts with Templar are OP as fuck and are zone control masters. Assassins with Poisoner essentially become super stealth killers and WILL unbalance your game unless you back up your AOAs with proper sentry patrol routes and the like. Oracles with Engineer become WH40K Defilers once they've built their Eidolons. Fighter with Diplomat can essentially get their opponents to yield and then rabbit punch them when their guard is lowered (this is stupidly OP when pitched battles become a thing).
At all lvls, the GM decides when you progress. They'll do this when you complete a major goal or two.
Everyone lvls up together, no exceptions (other than late joiners, then the GM just halves the sessions it takes for them to lvl up, problem solved). This is a very Chronicle-based game system in a way New World of Darkness never actually managed to pull off (for those on this forum who think I'm biased towards NWOD, I definitely am but I'll shit on something when it's legit bad). You really, really get a sense of a party in this game: characters who really do live and die and change together, even if they take a break over the in-game months/years (the corebook explicitly suggests this which I think is an underrated nice touch).
Quote from: FeloniousMonk;1013121I was not a big fan of game, despite backing the original Kickstarter. It suffers from gross imbalance issues at higher tiers. The background is alright tho, albeit derivative of WFRP on steroids where Chaos is Everywhere.
See above. I agree and add that it's too the game's strength rather than just making it so certain Careers are no-goes like in WHFRP as the work against the system and setting.
Quote from: HappyDaze;1013144Can you give any examples of these "gross imbalance issues" and how do they compare with imbalance issues seen in high-level D&D5e?
As above. You'll see a lot of Triggered Action abuse in the game (but it's intentional from the way the paths have been designed). This happens from lvl 2/3-ish onwards. Once you hit lvl 6, some of the Expert Path and Ancestry abilities are OP. Orcs with Witch are dangerous for GMs using suppression-based enemies because essentially they can teleport in front of them, take damage, then deal extra damage on top of the extra damage they're already dealing due to the Fury ability. There's a lot of room for cunning/smart players in this game to prosper and I'm happy to see it for once instead of it being discouraged by system or convention (a la Leaping Wizards).
Wasn't this one of those games that were pushed as a kind of anti-5e reaction heartbreaker? If so, that would explain what happened: it failed, 5e succeeded.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1014080Wasn't this one of those games that were pushed as a kind of anti-5e reaction heartbreaker? If so, that would explain what happened: it failed, 5e succeeded.
Fuck off, Pundit. You haven't even read the game.
Quote from: Cave Bear;1012075Roleplaying game publishers don't really market their products. They just sort of rely on blogging and word of mouth.
I hear its good though. I'd order a copy if I didn't think the customs officials would confiscate it.
QuoteFuck off, Pundit. You haven't even read the game.
Neither have you, apparently.
Quote from: TrippyHippy;1014107Neither have you, apparently.
That's true, but at least I'd like to give it a chance.
Was it an anti-5e response?
I thought it was an OSR-ish Warhammer game?
BTW, how does the system work?
Going on this thread alone, I have just two issues with Shadow of the Demon Lord:
1) The propensity of some of it's fans, possibly a minority but certainly a very vocal one, to compare the game in a disparaging light towards Warhammer Fantasy Role-play. As WFRP is very much a formative and well loved game for me, personally, it's a pretty poor tactic to attract fans. I'd also take issue that the games are similar in reference to the second point too.
2) The description of the game involving over-the-top profanities that the game is 'FUCKING METAL!!' and the like. Your play style preferences are up to you and your group but if this is all its selling, it's not for me. And, no, WFRP has its own style, which this ain't.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1014113Was it an anti-5e response?
I thought it was an OSR-ish Warhammer game?
BTW, how does the system work?
It's a refinement of D&D 5E with a heavy metal ethos (like a new-school version of Lamentations of the Flame Princess).
The game uses only the d20 and d6's.
A corruption system features prominently.
Combat uses a fast turn/slow turn mechanic to determine initiative. Each player secretly notes whether their character is taking a fast turn or a slow turn at the beginning of each round. Fast players act before fast monsters, fast monsters act before slow players, and slow players act before slow monsters. Characters taking fast turns only get one action during their turn, while characters taking slow actions get three actions during their turn. It looks pretty simple, and I hear it speeds combat along nicely.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1014080Wasn't this one of those games that were pushed as a kind of anti-5e reaction heartbreaker? If so, that would explain what happened: it failed, 5e succeeded.
That same logic would make your Albion book a real-world rethemer heartbreaker for D&D 1E.
Seriously, what is with this asshole logic in this thread?
Quote from: Spinachcat;1014113Was it an anti-5e response?
I thought it was an OSR-ish Warhammer game?
BTW, how does the system work?
What do you want to know?
Added to Cave Bear, there's two other general things to know: everyone possesses a Profession, there is a result booster/diminisher sub-system implemented.
Professions are used to give boons on rolls and can be used for residual income purposes like I did (i.e. roll #d6 for # of cp/sp/gp at start of lvl). This means your Assassin can have Forger as a background which could give her 1Bo on rolls involving forgery. And if you want to do something fancy in combat, you can take #Ba in order knockdown an opponent, say.
Boons/Banes are additional d6 dice which are used to raise or lower your result of a roll. They're offered in the same types of situations that you'd offer Advantage/Disadvantage in D&D 5E. You roll them alongside your normal d20 roll. Highest result of those dice is used against your roll, they are not stacked. That way, it means the difference between just succeeding or just failing and pushes the low-powered feeling driving the design. Schwalb even mentions in the book that this is what he would have picked 5E to go with had he had directorial power over the game's design. I think it works a lot better and is bit meatier while still being clean.
Quote from: TrippyHippy;1014116Going on this thread alone, I have just two issues with Shadow of the Demon Lord:
1) The propensity of some of it's fans, possibly a minority but certainly a very vocal one, to compare the game in a disparaging light towards Warhammer Fantasy Role-play. As WFRP is very much a formative and well loved game for me, personally, it's a pretty poor tactic to attract fans. I'd also take issue that the games are similar in reference to the second point too.
2) The description of the game involving over-the-top profanities that the game is 'FUCKING METAL!!' and the like. Your play style preferences are up to you and your group but if this is all its selling, it's not for me. And, no, WFRP has its own style, which this ain't.
No-one is disparaging WHFRP. The game has serious design issues that hamper what would otherwise be a rock-solid system. They will absolutely, justifiably be pounced on like lions on a wildebeest. Objectively, the best iteration of the system is the one found in Only War. And it's still not good enough -- I had to modify it myself to make criticals and wounds reward the freeform choice thing is was going for with Aptitudes but did not push because the designers were afraid to alienate the hardcore fanbase.
The game is FUCKING METAL. WH40KRP and WHFRP have also been METAL. They're sludge metal. SOTDL is more like alt metal.
Quote from: Cave Bear;1014120It's a refinement of D&D 5E with a heavy metal ethos (like a new-school version of Lamentations of the Flame Princess).
The game uses only the d20 and d6's.
A corruption system features prominently.
Combat uses a fast turn/slow turn mechanic to determine initiative. Each player secretly notes whether their character is taking a fast turn or a slow turn at the beginning of each round. Fast players act before fast monsters, fast monsters act before slow players, and slow players act before slow monsters. Characters taking fast turns only get one action during their turn, while characters taking slow actions get three actions during their turn. It looks pretty simple, and I hear it speeds combat along nicely.
It really does speed combat along. It only slows down when players don't keep up with decision-making or when the GM has not planned ahead and decided what monsters are gonna do what in combat. Ranged characters (non-casters) do tend to dominate with fast turns against unarmored enemies held back by melee characters so I'd let new GM's of the game know that and plan appropriately -- that caught me out.
Quote from: PrometheanVigil;1014143No-one is disparaging WHFRP. The game has serious design issues that hamper what would otherwise be a rock-solid system. They will absolutely, justifiably be pounced on like lions on a wildebeest. Objectively, the best iteration of the system is the one found in Only War. And it's still not good enough -- I had to modify it myself to make criticals and wounds reward the freeform choice thing is was going for with Aptitudes but did not push because the designers were afraid to alienate the hardcore fanbase.
The game is FUCKING METAL. WH40KRP and WHFRP have also been METAL. They're sludge metal. SOTDL is more like alt metal.
You're taste in games is most definitely not mine, and you're apparent age is roughly half mine, most likely. You have been disparaging WFRP - and you clearly have only limited experience of it considering that you can only reference W40KRP games in your analysis. The different game lines have related systems but are not the same, and the essential premise of each is different also, with different considerations made in design and their respective game histories.
In answer to the OP question, and in relation to your latter comments, the reason why Shadow of the Demon Lord appears to be disappearing up it's own anus is self evident in this thread.
People have been saying "game X is better than D&D because of Y" for decades now. The fact that WFRP is now receiving those gold-standard comparisons probably says more about WFRP than it does about SotDL or its fans.
Quote from: TrippyHippy;1014151You're taste in games is most definitely not mine, and you're apparent age is roughly half mine, most likely. You have been disparaging WFRP - and you clearly have only limited experience of it considering that you can only reference W40KRP games in your analysis. The different game lines have related systems but are not the same, and the essential premise of each is different also, with different considerations made in design and their respective game histories.
In answer to the OP question, and in relation to your latter comments, the reason why Shadow of the Demon Lord appears to be disappearing up it's own anus is self evident in this thread.
You just sound like a salty old bastard who hates that fact that his favorite pastime is seen as old-hat to the point of being an anachronism. But that's ok, plenty of older RPGers have had that attitude with me. I just keep it movin' and keep building.
The system is a precursor version to the one used in Dark Heresy. To imply it's a significantly different system is just silly. I started with Only War, played everything but Deathwatch and was lucky enough to be introduced to 2nd Ed WHFRP through a friend's game at uni. Lasted a handful of sessions but everything felt pretty familiar by that point. Same script, different annotations. We all stayed away from the apprentice wizard (who would flashcook fucking everything -- it was funny, half the time he had this knack for getting the food spoiling chaos manifestation), the outlaw and pit guy used to fuck with each other IC/OOC all the time, the guy playing the coachman was quite shy so didn't really do much and I ended up picking between agitator and smuggler (guess which one I ended up picking!). It was fun but the char percentage increases and limited skill selection already bugged me because I'd been spoiled -- at least now I saw where it bloody well came from. Skill advances was pretty much the same, same +5 increases even. Even Craftsmanship was still essentially the same, it was crazy. Although, thankfully, at least DH actually structured the careers properly now so Scum and so on went down one path instead of being shared with others (never got to be a gang lord unfortunately). But you know, iterative.
So yeah, that's my experience of WFRP. Again, it's shitty but workable, very much the same fundamental system and thank the Gods we eventually ended up with Only War. I do really hope that 4th Ed strips the older rulesets' crap away and starts anew. There's potential but some much stuff in there that's a product of its time that it just feels... dated.
Quote from: PrometheanVigil;1014171You just sound like a salty old bastard who hates that fact that his favorite pastime is seen as old-hat to the point of being an anachronism. But that's ok, plenty of older RPGers have had that attitude with me. I just keep it movin' and keep building.
You just sound like you have limited experience with WFRP, and have come away with some peculiar attitudes about how it plays.
The new edition of WFRP is about to be released in 2018 by Cubicle 7. It is explicitly going to be based on 1st/2nd edition designs - mainly due to public demand. I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up being one of the most anticipated RPGS in 2018 according to ENWorld (who's poll is due about today or tomorrow), and will likely be one of the biggest sellers of the year too.
Shadow of the.....who?
SotDL looks like something I'd like, at least as a source of ideas for other games (LotFP by way of Renaissance probably)... but somehow I had the idea that it's an intentionally limited game, meant to play out a particular campaign and then... pffft!
I wasn't aware it was based on 5e, that's not much of an inducement for me either.
Quote from: Cave Bear;1014120Combat uses a fast turn/slow turn mechanic to determine initiative. Each player secretly notes whether their character is taking a fast turn or a slow turn at the beginning of each round. Fast players act before fast monsters, fast monsters act before slow players, and slow players act before slow monsters. Characters taking fast turns only get one action during their turn, while characters taking slow actions get three actions during their turn. It looks pretty simple, and I hear it speeds combat along nicely.
That's not quite right. You hit the ordering of turns correctly, but not what can actually be done on a turn.
Fast Turn: Action
OR Move
PLUS Triggered Action
Slow Turn: Action
AND Move
PLUS Triggered Action
Quote from: PrometheanVigil;1014171So yeah, that's my experience of WFRP. Again, it's shitty but workable, very much the same fundamental system and thank the Gods we eventually ended up with Only War. I do really hope that 4th Ed strips the older rulesets' crap away and starts anew. There's potential but some much stuff in there that's a product of its time that it just feels... dated.
Was there a reason you ended with Only War rather than Dark Heresy 2e, the final FFG game of that family?
Quote from: Simlasa;1014227I wasn't aware it was based on 5e, that's not much of an inducement for me either.
I don't really get that comparison (I'm not familiar with 5E, but my understanding is that 5E is not massively different from other non-4E editions). It's as if every game that uses a d20+mods vs target number is treated by some people as a houseruled version of D&D.
I have no particularly strong inclination to run SotDL myself, although it seems like a decent enough system. But nothing in it struck me as evoking strong similarities to D&D, beyond the fact that it uses hp, and you roll d20 + attack bonus vs a defence value determined by armour and/or agility.
Even if actually was literally built up from the basic framework of 5E, I wouldn't recommend discarding it for that reason, as what's built on top of a few fundamental basics has gone in a very different direction.
When I look at something like Godbound, I see D&D with very cool and interesting modifications. When I look at SotDL I see a game that stands or falls entirely on it's own merits.
Quote from: HappyDaze;1014246That's not quite right. You hit the ordering of turns correctly, but not what can actually be done on a turn.
Fast Turn: Action OR Move PLUS Triggered Action
Slow Turn: Action AND Move PLUS Triggered Action
Ah, cool. I haven't played it yet (only heard about it.)
That there sounds cool enough to port into other games.
Quote from: Sable Wyvern;1014261Even if actually was literally built up from the basic framework of 5E, I wouldn't recommend discarding it for that reason, as what's built on top of a few fundamental basics has gone in a very different direction.
'Inducement' means an attractive feature, something that would motivate me to want it.
Lack of 'inducement' doesn't mean it's discarded.
Others here mentioned it being based on 5e... perhaps that's not accurate?
Quote from: Simlasa;1014355Others here mentioned it being based on 5e... perhaps that's not accurate?
I don't see it as being particularly accurate. There isn't anything "5e" about it, and while it has many D&D trappings in the form of names like cleric, druid, paladin, ranger, wizard, sorcerer, and fighter all conforming roughly to what a D&D player is familiar with, they don't play exactly the same way. Specifically, in D&D you usually start in a class and that defines both what you are and (generally) what you will become. SotDL paths show you where you are now, but they all build on other paths to see where you will be at the various levels (Novice/Expert/Master) and there are almost no restrictions on how you can combine them (although some blend better than others). SotDL uses a profession system closer to early D&D rather than the skill system of later D&D. SotDL spells are not Vancian slots, they are more like D&D's spell-like abilities with each available x times per day (where x is based on each known spell's rank and the charcter's Power), and characters typically know only a small number of spells, never getting the massive versatility seen in D&D spellcasters.
Quote from: Cave Bear;1014105Fuck off, Pundit. You haven't even read the game.
I don't need to read the game to make an analysis of the question at hand (which is to say, "what happened?").
I didn't read the game, so I'm not saying the game sucked, or it ruled, or anything else about the game. I'm saying that from a market standpoint, it bet on competing with 5e, like several other games did, and they all lost because 5e ended up being very successful.
Quote from: PrometheanVigil;1014143That same logic would make your Albion book a real-world rethemer heartbreaker for D&D 1E.
First, Albion isn't even an RPG. It's a setting book.
Second, I didn't try to market it as anti-anything. On the contrary, I tried to market it mainly to OSR people, but made some effort to promote it in 5e circles too, because as a setting it can be used with 5e.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1014645I don't need to read the game to make an analysis of the question at hand (which is to say, "what happened?").
I didn't read the game, so I'm not saying the game sucked, or it ruled, or anything else about the game. I'm saying that from a market standpoint, it bet on competing with 5e, like several other games did, and they all lost because 5e ended up being very successful.
You got paid to be a consultant for 5E.
SotDL seems to be plenty successful in PDF sales. It has several products that hang out in the best sellers, and it has dozens of products. It's not D&D (5e or any other), but it has certainly done well for a small operation.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1014080Wasn't this one of those games that were pushed as a kind of anti-5e reaction heartbreaker? If so, that would explain what happened: it failed, 5e succeeded.
Yes, 5e won if the competition is about having an average idiot playing it. In food business it's MacDonalds, in music it's Justin Bieber, etc.
To me SotDL is the only RPG that made class-based system to not suck.
What I would want from SotDL is to be even more distant from D&D. I'd want to see a S&S version for this. Humans vs sorcerers vs undead vs lizard people.
Quote from: jux;1015225Yes, 5e won if the competition is about having an average idiot playing it. In food business it's MacDonalds, in music it's Justin Bieber, etc.
To me SotDL is the only RPG that made class-based system to not suck.
What I would want from SotDL is to be even more distant from D&D. I'd want to see a S&S version for this. Humans vs sorcerers vs undead vs lizard people.
Oh, so
that Class system over there suxx but
this Class system here is meaningful 'n' deep 'n' groundbreaking.....
Heard it all before. It's bollocks. Try playing a game
without a Class system and you might be up to speed with the cutting edge of game design of the late 1970s or so.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1014080Wasn't this one of those games that were pushed as a kind of anti-5e reaction heartbreaker? If so, that would explain what happened: it failed, 5e succeeded.
Not really anti-5e. From the foreword and other articles, just seems like Schwalb wanted his own game not bound to WotC canon that he could use for Warhammer-like games (without being bound to GW either).
So we get a game that resembles 5e somewhat, but is more like WFRP in setting. With regards to picking the various types of careers as you level, it seems a lot more like Dragon Age to me than 5e, even though I think there's a lot of 5e-like ideas in SotDL (why wouldn't there be, Schwalb worked on both).
He worked for FFG, worked for Black Industries (through Green Ronin), worked for Green Ronin, worked for WotC, worked for Monte Cook. Now he's got his own company making his own game that probably has a little bit of lots of things he's designed or been exposed to if you dug through it.
I don't think it was designed to be the anti-5e anymore than 13th Age was designed to be the anti-4e.
Quote from: TrippyHippy;1015334Oh, so that Class system over there suxx but this Class system here is meaningful 'n' deep 'n' groundbreaking.....
I don't think it's "meaningful", "deep", or even "groundbreaking" (as I said it reminds me a lot of Dragon Age but with more freedom). But, I would argue, it does seem to work
differently than the type of multi-classing we've seen in WotC flavors of D&D, and of course much different than TSR flavors of multi or dual classing.
So, working differently, some people obviously will like it better, some won't.
I thought the system seemed interesting and fine but I was more interested in mining the setting for ideas.
Quote from: Voros;1015413I thought the system seemed interesting and fine but I was more interested in mining the setting for ideas.
That's not going to be easy because the setting information is really spread out among a great many small PDFs. There are some that highlight specific regions and others that highlight specific cultures (Ancestries) or religions, but you might end up picking up a lot of material to get to what you want. I liked the material though, so I have picked up most of it. With two exceptions, I haven't bought the adventures, and from what I hear some are great and others are trash (no, I don't recall which are which right now). From what I've been told, some of the adventures do add in bits of setting too.
I got a bunch of stuff from a Bundle of Holding. Read the rules set first to get a feel for it but haven't dug into the setting and adventures yet.
In that case, enjoy! I did find that the prices on the various PDFs made them easy to pick-up on a whim. That's not to say that they're inexpensive--you may pay $3 for something that's only 6 pages long. I'd have to say it was easy to lose track of how much I spent since only a few of the purchases were > $5. Thankfully, I don't regret making the purchases (unlike some other games that I've bought) since the material came gradually and I could have stopped at any time. IMO, it's a bit different to games where every new bite is $35+ (FFG is a big one here).
Quote from: Cave Bear;1014671You got paid to be a consultant for 5E.
Yes. I helped make it successful.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1016023Yes. I helped make it successful.
So, you don't like to see competition.
Quote from: TrippyHippy;1014151In answer to the OP question, and in relation to your latter comments, the reason why Shadow of the Demon Lord appears to be disappearing up it's own anus is self evident in this thread.
I wouldn't judge the system by one over enthusiastic poster. It is quite interesting, WFRP is only one element in the stew. And it is far from a failure, they just put out a new pirate-themed campaign Queen of Gold (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/227168/Queen-of-Gold-Tales-of-the-Pirate-Isles?src=hottest_filtered&coverSizeTestPhase2=true&word-variants=true) in November so I think it is doing fine.
Quote from: Cave Bear;1016056So, you don't like to see competition.
1. It's not like I get royalties or something. I got paid, very well, but I don't make any extra money from 5e succeeding.
2. Whether or not I like competition is quite irrelevant. I was making a statement of fact: 5e was enormously successful, and games that tried to set themselves up as direct rivals to the 5e concept did not do well (or as well).
Quote from: RPGPundit;10165261. It's not like I get royalties or something. I got paid, very well, but I don't make any extra money from 5e succeeding.
You use this forum to market your games. You drive sales by
1. Putting on this libertarian RPG Pundit persona to build brand identity
2. Having your name attached to D&D 5E
More competition means fewer 5E sales. Fewer sales for 5E means less exposure and fewer sales for you.
So of course you'll make sure that any game that looks like competition against 5E gets bad press.
Quote from: Cave Bear;1016548You use this forum to market your games. You drive sales by
1. Putting on this libertarian RPG Pundit persona to build brand identity
2. Having your name attached to D&D 5E
More competition means fewer 5E sales. Fewer sales for 5E means less exposure and fewer sales for you.
So of course you'll make sure that any game that looks like competition against 5E gets bad press.
Your reasoning is flawed. What you call "more competition" doesn't necessarily mean fewer 5e sales from those that purchase SotDL. There is nothing in owning one that prevents buying the other unless funds are exceptionally tight. I personally own both SotDL and D&D5e, and so do several of my fellow gaming buddies. Among my group, including those that that own D&D5e, none have purchased any of Pundit's products (with no particular reasons voiced), so I think that your suggested draw of having an author's name associated with D&D5e is overstated too.
Quote from: HappyDaze;1016567Your reasoning is flawed. What you call "more competition" doesn't necessarily mean fewer 5e sales from those that purchase SotDL. There is nothing in owning one that prevents buying the other unless funds are exceptionally tight. I personally own both SotDL and D&D5e, and so do several of my fellow gaming buddies. Among my group, including those that that own D&D5e, none have purchased any of Pundit's products (with no particular reasons voiced), so I think that your suggested draw of having an author's name associated with D&D5e is overstated too.
Pundit likes to shit on other games. When he's not shitting on "negadungeons" he's shitting on "anti-5E".
I have to wonder what his motives are.
Is he just trolling for attention?
Is it jealousy?
Or is there a profit motive behind it?
Quote from: Cave Bear;1016582Pundit likes to shit on other games. When he's not shitting on "negadungeons" he's shitting on "anti-5E".
I have to wonder what his motives are.
Is he just trolling for attention?
Is it jealousy?
Or is there a profit motive behind it?
OK, so it's more about Pundit to you than the game(s). In that case, why not go directly to Pundit's forum and ponder it there? I'm fairly sure he'll reply if he's interested (and if it's about him, he's probably at least a little interested).
Quote from: HappyDaze;1016596OK, so it's more about Pundit to you than the game(s). In that case, why not go directly to Pundit's forum and ponder it there? I'm fairly sure he'll reply if he's interested (and if it's about him, he's probably at least a little interested).
I only care insofar that it affects our ability to actually discuss games.
He doesn't come into these threads to meaningfully contribute to the topic at hand.
He just pops in to shitpost.
I'd rather talk about the fact that Shadow of the Demon Lord has a pentagram on the character sheet, and a sick fuckin' demon on the cover. It's metal as fuck.
But the Pundit is always like:
Quote from: RPGPunditHarumph! It's anti-5E! Buy my game! Harumph!
Yeah, I get it Pundit. You aren't running this forum out of the kindness of your own heart. You are running this forum so you can shill your pdfs and charge for advertisement space, and any thread that discusses SotDL or LotFP isn't making you any money. I'll say no more about that. I'm done here.
Bye.
Quote from: Voros;1016120I wouldn't judge the system by one over enthusiastic poster. It is quite interesting, WFRP is only one element in the stew. And it is far from a failure, they just put out a new pirate-themed campaign Queen of Gold (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/227168/Queen-of-Gold-Tales-of-the-Pirate-Isles?src=hottest_filtered&coverSizeTestPhase2=true&word-variants=true) in November so I think it is doing fine.
Wow, finally new campaign. I just love the philosophy of having 2-3 page adventures to not overwhelm the GMing role.
QuoteYou got paid to be a consultant for 5E.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1016023Yes. I helped make it successful.
Was it all collective team work or were there some of the design decisions you are responsible and proud of? If so, what are they?
Not much in the RPG world will ever compete with the big dogs (D&D, Pathfinder). So comparing yourself to them is pure folly. No one (with any horse sense) makes a game to compete with D&D. Charles is not an idiot. He just made a game he wanted to play, with the enthusiasm of a wild-eyed grizzled veteran, and knocked his "heartbreaker" out of the park. If you wander 5ft outside theRPGsite and poke around, this truth will jump up and bite your balls as unto like the proverbial snake you didn't see (before it bit you in the balls). :D (That's me being funny, not kicking anyone in the balls...)
Compared to the rest of the market (and if you haven't been paying attention, I pay attention to these things...), I believe SotdL is doing well for Schwalb Entertainment (the man himself and a cadre of freelancers IIRC). It is readily and frequently supported, people buzz about it all the time, and after a couple glance-throughs, it's easy to see why.
It's fast, well thought out, dripping with flavor, and the class-system is savvy fun for the D&D crowd. It's familiar so D&D people can pick it up fast and includes dark sexy WFRP-like mechanics that mesh wonderfully with the core D&D-like base. It's plainly obvious these blokes know what they're doing.
I've seen the book at my fav PNW game store Olympic Cards and Comics. I'm sure your FLGS can order one up as easy as any other game.
Is Shadow of the Demon Lord better than Zweihander or WFRP? Who the fuck cares? Pick up some games, read them, playtest them with your group and pick the one that turns you on (you can sell the others on eBay or RPGGeek). I've played several versions of WFRP and read both the other games and frankly they all have their little gems and merits.
Quote from: Cave Bear;1016548You use this forum to market your games. You drive sales by
1. Putting on this libertarian RPG Pundit persona to build brand identity
2. Having your name attached to D&D 5E
More competition means fewer 5E sales. Fewer sales for 5E means less exposure and fewer sales for you.
So of course you'll make sure that any game that looks like competition against 5E gets bad press.
Man, that's a ridiculous stretch.
This forum was popular long before I did 5e and has been popular years after I was done with WoTC.
I have spent most of my time before and after promoting NOT 5e, but OSR games.
Also, it's ridiculous to think that anything I do could make 5e more popular. Well, actually, a lot I did helped make 5e more popular, but
I already did that, and that's why the game succeeded.
Quote from: Cave Bear;1016609Yeah, I get it Pundit. You aren't running this forum out of the kindness of your own heart. You are running this forum so you can shill your pdfs and charge for advertisement space, and any thread that discusses SotDL or LotFP isn't making you any money. I'll say no more about that. I'm done here.
Yeah, you got me. The $30 a month I get from the couple of people at a time who aren't advertising free is the reason I put 10 years of my life into this forum.
Quote from: jux;1016643Was it all collective team work or were there some of the design decisions you are responsible and proud of? If so, what are they?
There were a few. I was a bit advocate (note: possibly not the only one) for Advantage/Disadvantage, which was initially a relatively minor mechanic that they seemed very unsure of, and that at one point appeared like it might be removed altogether. I made it clear it was a killer-app and should be the central way to handle modifiers.
I had a very big role in the core character classes and how they were handled.
But really, probably my biggest contribution was not in terms of things that ended up in the game, but in things that DIDN'T. I was constantly fighting to stop the game from becoming more complex, which some of the design team seemed hell-bent on wanting to do.
I was ruthless in my opposition. Which even Mearls has stated was exactly what I was hired to do.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1016894But really, probably my biggest contribution was not in terms of things that ended up in the game, but in things that DIDN'T. I was constantly fighting to stop the game from becoming more complex, which some of the design team seemed hell-bent on wanting to do.
I was ruthless in my opposition. Which even Mearls has stated was exactly what I was hired to do.
It's a very good thing IMO. Compared to 3e & 4e, 5e has a much lower bar to entry in terms of systems mastery. I see quite a few 3e and 4e fans who dislike this, but they are vastly outnumbered by the newbies who 5e brings in. 5e also attracts a lot of pre-3e Grognard players/GMs (like me, though I also play(ed) 3e & 4e), but the newbies are much more important to the game's success, bringing with them a lot of positive media coverage too.
Quote from: S'mon;1016980It's a very good thing IMO. Compared to 3e & 4e, 5e has a much lower bar to entry in terms of systems mastery. I see quite a few 3e and 4e fans who dislike this, but they are vastly outnumbered by the newbies who 5e brings in. 5e also attracts a lot of pre-3e Grognard players/GMs (like me, though I also play(ed) 3e & 4e), but the newbies are much more important to the game's success, bringing with them a lot of positive media coverage too.
Yes, that was essential. And Mike Mearls recognized the same thing, but there was a whole culture in WoTC that had a lot of trouble with the idea, because it ran against everything they'd done before (not just in D&D but in Magic too).
SotDL bombed with my group. As a comparison, SotDL gritty is kind of like GRR Martin "gritty". Just because people die doesn't mean it is gritty. My players did not care for the high damage/lethality of the game for what was supposed to be standard challenge. Then again, I think a lot of the early adventures struggled with what should be an appropriate challenge.
So how did it's "grittiness" compare to low-level D&D.