I'll add to the hate-fest for D&D magic. The really shitty thing, from my point of view, is that the awful assumed magic system is imbedded in the rest of the system. If you tweak it too much you end up having to review and revise EVERY new product you want to use. Blecch.

Arcana Evolved is an interesting solution, but has a related issue: adding new D20 products to your game is a huge pain in the ass. I really, really don't want to assign complexities and descriptors to all the cool spells in the Spell Compendium, for example.

I actually like Monte's new idea a fair bit; currently trying to think of a way to use it that isn't a huge pile of work.

Quote from: ColonelHardissonEmpire of the Petal Throne's "Tekumel" is intricate and fascinating, but I hate that the setting doesn't have fast-moving riding animals.

It really sucked for native americans too.  It led to them doing wierd things, like hunting bison by running on on foot to herd them over steep bluffs.  I know it's still a deer for you, but I believe that is why they did it. To emulate that South American connection.


My deer?  Imortal Elves in Shadowrun. But then I generally hate elves. Even when they are grimy, tattooed punk elves. So the Martha Stewart "Better Than You" ones really rub me the wrong way.

Quote from: Caesar SlaadHandwaves have levels of plausibility. I've seen a plausible handwaves for inertialess drives. I see none for phyically altering non-cymbeline based chips at a distance with radio waves. That's on the order of psionics to me, but unlike psionics, it's way more in my face and doesn't have a comfy spot in my "this belongs in traveller" conceptual shelter.

It's been a very long time but the explanation seemed plausible at the time.  The transponder chips weren't actually chips but a silicon based life form.  The chips would communicate with each other to give a ship's identity.  The chips evolved with low light/energy.  Experiments with higher energy/faster growth created very smart, rebellious versions of the transponders in efforts to create a way of paralyzing enemy ships.  The virus was essentially a mindwashing signal sent by the new chops that convinced other transponders that they could have more energy and do whatever they wanted if they took over the ship.

But I hated the whole "let's destroy everything and reboot" aspect of TNE.

Elminster has been a magic deer for FR for me too, the whole uber-NPC thing bugs me.

Quote from: Wandering MonsterI have to disagree here.  The unholy abortion of "fire-and-forget" magic is so deeply entrenched in D&D that it ends up bleeeding out into nearly every setting based on D&D.  Note that in any of the D&D novels -- not that I'm admitting to reading any of those sorry steaming turds... especially not five complete series -- there is a tortuous explanation of "how magic works," all trying to justify that hideous excuse for a magic system.

While it's obvious that my big setting-stopper is the way the D&D magic system makes changes to the underlying implied world of any game using the D&D system.  However, my own personal magic deer:  Fighting, adventuring priests and the entire D&D-esque setting treatment of religion and deities...

I agree.


Ceasar Slaad: I could see a DnD style ruleset possibly working for Adept Magic (charges and whatnot). The difference is, Adapt Magic is adequetely explained in the setting as well as the ruleset. Ritual and Avatar Magic are highly ingrained and explained by the setting and can be attempted at any and all the time.

Our main complaint is there is no decent explanation for why/how Magic works in the DnD setting. It follows the DnD standard that concept comes after system. However the system is so systemy that there isn't even a brief explanation or theory for why it works. Why do you forget a spell after you have cast it? It's Magic! Why do you use a diamond for casting true ressurection? It's Magic.

Because of that reason alone I can't get into character as a Spellcaster. It's hard for me to play a charcter concept that knows how Magic works without knowing how magic works myself.  At least Divine Magics have the "god granted miracles" so I can play a decent Cleric or Paladin

KrakaJack,

I think I should clarify that, while I don't share your disdain for D&D magic, I accept that D&D magic doesn't work for you. What I am getting at though is that the question I asked in this thread is about setting details, and I don't see D&D magic as a setting detail.

Quote from: Caesar SlaadKrakaJack,

I think I should clarify that, while I don't share your disdain for D&D magic, I accept that D&D magic doesn't work for you. What I am getting at though is that the question I asked in this thread is about setting details, and I don't see D&D magic as a setting detail.

In the standard DnD setting. Magic just works. Period. No explanation. The only answer to how is only provided by the mechanics which doesn't make any sense besides as a balancing game mechanic.

You know the thread title just makes me want to say this.


"I have a magical deer..."



"in my PANTS!"






But more to the op, I really dislike in campaign settings the "more effective than thou" NPC's. It doesn't matter who or what (Drizzt, Elminster, Raistlin,some one off in an adventure.)

 I think the PC's should fill that role of 'named important personages' in any "adventure/actiony" style setting.

Quote from: KrakaJakIn the standard DnD setting. Magic just works. Period. No explanation. The only answer to how is only provided by the mechanics which doesn't make any sense besides as a balancing game mechanic.

The core D&D rules don't have a real setting. It has what I've seen referred to as a proto-setting, and no it doesn't have any sort of detailed magical theory. Outside of perhaps clerical channeling of positive/negative energy from the perspective planes.  Even the Greyhawk itself setting proper doesn't have a lot of magical theory, although I recall that the RPGA did incoporate select player submitted texts in Living Greyhawk on exactly such topics. No idea where that is at since I dropped out of LG long ago.

The ironic thing is that Eberron is a lot like what I think of when I look at the D&D magic rules. In some ways it's the closest thing to a natural setting that has been offically release. I've always had the feeling of fighting the very essense of the D&D system with settings that have lower magic than that.  Even back in AD&D, but probably a notch moreso yet with the advent of 3e.

A magic deer for me, other than the actual magic deer of course, are the major npcs in FR. My reasons are no different than what has been posted many times by others.

While I have never been a fan of the DnD magic system, I still enjoy playing wizards. What I have never liked about the DnD magic system is how it didn't allow me to model wizards from books.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenNon-spontaneous spellcasting in D&D.

No, I can't explain this.  It just annoys the hell out of me.

I'll make a guess: spell slots.

"Time of Troubles", baby.

Magic Deered a whole setting for me.

Most of AD&D1e's implied setting bothers me. I'll also cop to the spell rules issue.

But in White Box D&D, the implied setting stuff wasn't nearly as bad, maybe because there was less of it.

In general I don't like vampires and werewolves in my fantasy games. It just conjures up an image of Bela Lugosi and Lon Chaney, Jr. duking it out with Conan. Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Glorantha, yes, many incongruous things to annoy, but I sort of give it a pass.

In Harn, I really see no need for the Elves and Dwarves. I like the Gargun, as well as the Ivashu, but the Elves/Dwarves (including the implication that they all migrated from Middle Earth) are superfluous to an otherwise original, meticulously-detailed, faux-medieval setting.

I dislike the fact that Traveller has an imperium. Other aspects of Traveller do have that "hard SF" feel for me, but the idea that humans in the distant future would organize themselves as a monarchy goes against that.

I do not like the Japanese portion of Yrth from GURPS Fantasy. Then again, Yrth isn't very memorable or interesting. Oh, now that I think about it, I remember that Yrth also had one of those annoying origins where somebody or something picked up bits of historical Earth and deposited them in another dimension. It works for Cidri (The Fantasy Trip). Not so much for Yrth.

Magic in D&D bothers me too.  My thought was to add magic spells they can do anytime...

Cast unlimited magic missile spells with their "wand/staff"  but they have to roll to hit and it has limited range.  Yes, it's basically just a weak bow -- but it makes the character feel more like wizard than an archer.  

Cast unlimited light spells that only affect their "wand/staff", so it's just a fancy torch and can't be used offensively.

Levitate small obects within 5 feet (because it's rarely much more useful than just picking it up)...

Some kind of defensive "spell" that is similar to what a fighter might do to parry, trip, bull rush, etc -- weaker than the fighter, but maybe at short range.

etc.

Make them all reliant on a wand or staff -- so if they're disarmed they can't use these special spells.

Quote from: Elliot WilenIn Harn, I really see no need for the Elves and Dwarves. I like the Gargun, as well as the Ivashu, but the Elves/Dwarves (including the implication that they all migrated from Middle Earth) are superfluous to an otherwise original, meticulously-detailed, faux-medieval setting.

Harn is one of my favorite settings, and while I really don't have a problem, in general, with there being elves and dwarves in it, I find I have to wholeheartedly agree with you here. One could completely remove reference to elves and dwarves, replace their mention in the history with human cultures, and the setting would be just as good. They don't really add much. One specific thing I have always disliked about the elves is their immortality. I find that it's very difficult to roleplay immortal beings convincingly, so when I have run Harn I have house-ruled that elves are just long-lived...more like DnD elves. Removing the "elder" races entirely is an idea that I hadn't considered, and I find it intrigueing. Harn without demi-humans.....I think I like it. Heck, for all intents and purposes it's without demi-human influence already. Combined with the True20 rules I think it will make the setting damn near perfect. Thanks

The whole way Magic works in the FR. Die Mystra, die!
Makes all Wizards just lazy clerics.
Stupid!