In another thread people were talking trash about Ars Magica, mostly (as far as I could tell) on the basis of it being historically inaccurate.  I have little idea of what they're talking about: I wasn't aware that Ars Magica /had/ a setting beyond, "it's the year whatever, except there's this society of mages, and faeries and magical animals exist."

So, what's so bad about Ars Magica?  Let's hear it!

I think AM is fine for what it is.

I do not, however, buy into the mantra of those who whip it out whenever the topic "what should I use to run my generic fantasy game" comes up. AM has a specific set of setting assumptions that fit best for the sort of game that is about a covenant of mages.

Ars has a detailed medieval setting during the year 1220, IMO it is a tremendous rpg, including the new edition.

That said, it is mythic Europe, not actual Europe, it is Europe as its inhabitants believed it to be along with faeries, demons, angels and so on.

That said, I own a lot of Ars books and I know a fair bit about the Albigensian crusade, and its treatment in those books looked more than accurate enough for gaming purposes to me.  It is, after all, a game rather than an academic treatise.

Quote from: Caesar SlaadI think AM is fine for what it is.

I do not, however, buy into the mantra of those who whip it out whenever the topic "what should I use to run my generic fantasy game" comes up. AM has a specific set of setting assumptions that fit best for the sort of game that is about a covenant of mages.

I agree, it's not at all generic.  It works well for medieval gaming, but I would hesitate to use it for anything very far from that concept.

It would probably work for Harn, which is essentially medieval anyway, but not for anything more generic than that.

That said, I have run a lengthy AM campaign with no magi at all, so it does do it, but you need to keep it rooted in historicity for the game really to work properly.

I can imagine that a lot of people feel intimidated by real-world settings. If you make a decision about some background stuff in, let's say Greyhawk, it might not be according to the official version, but you feel empowered enough to make your own decisions.

When playing in fantasy Europe, Caesarian Rome or the court of Louis XIV, you're basically 'changing history' if you get some fact about the sewer system wrong. That 'feels' worse to a lot of game masters. And a lot of gamers are history geeks. If you get something wrong, you'll hear it -- or worse, get that tooth-ache look...
This being a Europe where wizards run rampant doesn't change that as much. Nobody cares if you get the relations of the Houses of Hermes wrong, but make one false statement about three-field crop rotation...

Personally, I never took a fancy to the troupe style of playing. This bothers me enough in bog standard fantasy with its familiars and torch bearers, but in Ars Magica it's basically neccesary.

Apart from that, Ars Magica is nice to steal from. Good setting information, a very usable magic system (easily transported to almost any system) and neat adventures (Covenant of Calebais is especially recommended).

Quote from: SosthenesApart from that, Ars Magica is nice to steal from. Good setting information, a very usable magic system (easily transported to almost any system) and neat adventures (Covenant of Calebais is especially recommended).

Yes, exactly. The Houses of Hermes makes for a fantastic example of a magical organization. I also felt some of the example covenants in the Covenants sourcebook were cool enough to use on their own. The Broken Covenant of Calebais is, indeed, an interesting adventure. Very well-done, and really is a dungeon with a lot of thought behind it.

I haven't read 5th edition so it might have improved, but I found the combat system for non-mages was rather boring, pretty much taking turns rolling dice.  To me that made it not very portable to a campaign where mages weren't the focus.  

But it's fine for its intended purpose.

If I remember correctly, Rune's combat system was based on AM. That could lead to some interesting cross-overs. Replace wizards with druids and vikings with celtic warriors...

Why nothing, its near perfect except not being leather bound and full color!

Ars Magica is of course one of my favorite games it does its thing well, without a lot of wasted space or useless aspects. To be fair its not for everyone and I'd never recommend it for a "generic" fantasy. It simply is too focused on magic and mages. On the other hand with a few minor tweaks the game is quite good at other things. I know the system loosely adapted was used in RUNE, and a few people enjoyed that as well.

I luv Ars Magica. Nothing but luv.

Quote from: SosthenesI can imagine that a lot of people feel intimidated by real-world settings. If you make a decision about some background stuff in, let's say Greyhawk, it might not be according to the official version, but you feel empowered enough to make your own decisions.

When playing in fantasy Europe, Caesarian Rome or the court of Louis XIV, you're basically 'changing history' if you get some fact about the sewer system wrong. That 'feels' worse to a lot of game masters. And a lot of gamers are history geeks. If you get something wrong, you'll hear it -- or worse, get that tooth-ache look...
This being a Europe where wizards run rampant doesn't change that as much. Nobody cares if you get the relations of the Houses of Hermes wrong, but make one false statement about three-field crop rotation...

That's exactly why I steer clear of anything but the most of pseudo- of pseudo-historical games.  I'm not a historian and I feel underqualified and lame when running something historical.

QuotePersonally, I never took a fancy to the troupe style of playing. This bothers me enough in bog standard fantasy with its familiars and torch bearers, but in Ars Magica it's basically neccesary.

I would adore a D&D campaign run troupe style, where people take turns running all the cohorts, followers, animal companions, etc.

Ars Magica is a relentlessly fantastic game.  From character construction to the magic system to the running of the alliance to the troupe-style play it's easily one of the greatest RPGs ever written.

My only regret about it is that I've only ever played a handful of adventures and have never really been able to make the most of the more innovative pieces of design.

Quote from: jrientsI would adore a D&D campaign run troupe style, where people take turns running all the cohorts, followers, animal companions, etc.

It's an idea I've kicked around. The "main PCs" (equivalent to Ars Magica magi in relative power) could use the Gestalt rules from Unearthed Arcana, the companion PCs could use the normal D&D rules, and grogs could use the NPC classes (warrior especially).

Its a pity most of you don't read Spanish; otherwise if you wanted a really good and AUTHENTIC look at a Medieval Historical RPG complete with a magic system that actually bases itself on how magic was imagined to work by the medieval world view, I would recommend Aquelarre. On this issue, it kicks Ars Magica's ass on so many levels.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditIts a pity most of you don't read Spanish; otherwise if you wanted a really good and AUTHENTIC look at a Medieval Historical RPG complete with a magic system that actually bases itself on how magic was imagined to work by the medieval world view, I would recommend Aquelarre. On this issue, it kicks Ars Magica's ass on so many levels.

Well, I would say that if you're looking for an authentic medieval historical RPG, then you shouldn't play Ars Magica.  

What I've heard of Aquelarre is that it sets up an opposition between rationality and magic -- that you have a rationality/irrationality stat, and the higher your rationality, the more resistant you are to magic but the less able to cast it you are.  Is that true?  Offhand, that sounds much more modern than medieval to me, which conjures up a picture of a magic/science division.  

I don't know offhand of an English-language game which does period medieval magic.  I used Norse Seidhr magic in my Vinland campaign, which is period medieval (circa ~1000).  I have my notes here:

http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/vinland/magic/