In another thread where Settembrini compained about the style of playstyle discussions, Elliot Wilen brought up a good point about "heroism" in roleplaying games. I think this is a significant thing, so I repost my response here to ask, to you, what is a "hero", and how does that affect your style of play?

Eliot's post, #136

Quote from: Elliot Wilen[...]Look closely: are these people talking about a game? No, they're talking about heroism, an aesthetic/moral quality, and whether the game allows the expression or experience of that quality. Frankly, this is an intractable question--at least as intractable as asking whether Harrison Ford or Joe Montana is a greater hero. Both are "heroic" only within fictional contexts which depend on the observer's conception of heroism. [...]

I think you've caught it well, Elliot. I've often found that different ideas of what a "hero" is leads to different kinds of game sessions. There are certainly cultural differences in the ideas of "heroism", but there are many individual differences, too. Since roleplaying games are so often about "heroes", what the individual people at the game table think a "hero" is, is very important.

For example, as Robin Laws pointed out in his book about GMing, a common American idea of the hero is one who has extraordinary ability and does extraordinary things (see for example the recent tv series, "Heroes", where people wake up with super-powers). The British idea of "hero", by comparison, is the ordinary person who in an extreme situation does extraordinary things. So if you're playing with someone with an American idea of hero, you might want a game where they can have a high-level character - succeeding by virtue of their great abilities. If you're playing with someone with a British idea of hero, you might want a game where they can spend Hero Points to get successes - this one time, the ordinary person does something extraordinary.

I think this idea of "hero" lies at the heart of a lot of arguments about fudging dice rolls, munchkinism, level-based systems vs skill-based, and so on.

What do you guys reckon?

I reckon a "hero" is somebody on your side. Whatever side that is.

I thought about starting this thread when I read that post too.

My idea of a hero in a game is someone that risks it all to do the right thing. The risk also has to be a real one or it doesn't count. What "it all" means will vary from campaign to campaign. It doesn't always have to be death, but it does have to be something unpleasant to the player and the character.

What is a hero?

Quote from: Dwight SchruteA hero kills people, people that wish him harm. A hero is part human and part supernatural. A hero is born out of a childhood trauma, or out of a disaster, and must be avenged.

Quote from: JimBobOzFor example, as Robin Laws pointed out in his book about GMing, a common American idea of the hero is one who has extraordinary ability and does extraordinary things (see for example the recent tv series, "Heroes", where people wake up with super-powers).

Hmm. I think that "American hero" trope is only one of many, and is arguably not the most prevalent here in the US. Maybe the most flashy and visible, but not the most common. But it depends on what is meant by "extraordinary ability" and "extraordinary things." I think American TV and movies are full of examples of characters with nothing that one would call "superhuman" abilities, but who would be unquestionably labeled heroes by Americans. Classic examples would be 70s era cop shows and movies like "Starsky and Hutch" and Popeye Doyle of "The French Connection," or 80s era guys like "Magnum, P.I." For that matter, Indiana Jones is another good example - no powers (unless you count his unaccountable good luck), and his main advantage is a Ph.D. in Archeology. While there are certainly your Spidermans and Supermans running around, the most common examples of "American" heroes usually are ordinary people, with maybe a few skills they've honed to the point of being extraordinary, though not quite supernatural (the classic American Western cowboy, for example). I'd say the last 20-40 years has seen the rise of the "reluctant hero" in the American consciousness, from movies like "Serpico" to "Die Hard," wherein the heroes just happen to be in right place at the wrong time, and their innate decency compels them to act, even if they bitch about it the whole time.

So, to actually get to the point, I think the last bit is what defines a hero - a moral compunction to do the right thing, regardless of consequences to oneself. You'll notice a lot of American movies and TV in which there are heroes with superhuman powers and abilities, and you'll also notice that they are deprived of those abilities and powers a lot of the time, but continue to act heroically. I guess the lesson in that is the powers aren't what make the hero, it's his heart, which any of us can have.

My idea of a hero is rather simplistic. A hero is a character for reasons known only to himself/herself decides to risk all to do something altruistic. Characters don't start off as heroes in my campaigns but more often then not, end up as...okay it's a cliche, but most of my campaigns have as it's central theme, the question of "what it means to be a hero ?" .

Regards,
David R

Bob of Hartford here.

I'm just doing a job, that's all. Hire my crew to guard your caravan, we'll guard your caravan. Hire my crew to keep an eye on your kids, we'll keep an eye on your kids. Deal with us honest and pay us on time and you'll get the best service in town. Some addlepated idjit wants to call us heroes, that's his problem.


I don't train my people to be heroes, I train my people to be good at what they do. No grandstanding, no "heroic last stands" or any crap like that. You want me to protect your life or rescue your heir apparent, then I'll do it for the right fee. But don't expect me to go seeking glory or treating you or yours like a delicat vase. I have to take your pure and unstained daughter's virginity to save her privileged ass, she's getting boned. And no, I'm not marrying her, I've got a wife and four kids as it is.

I aint a hero, I don't want to be a hero, and if I ever express a desire to become a hero I hope somebody does me the kindness of planting a miner's pick in my head.

In the "parent" thread I posted a response to JimBob which basically says that heroism is a red herring when it comes to understanding how different poeple enjoy RPGs. I still think it's worth discussing, but you might want to look at that post anyway.

Basically, if an RPG's hype says you get to "be a hero", that's about as meaningful as if it says the activity of the game is "creating stories". It might be interesting to start a new thread on writing honest ad copy for various RPGs. E.g. if I were writing for original D&D I wouldn't talk about being a hero, I'd say something like, "Face fantastic monsters and exotic enemies, use your wit and talent to gain fabulous treasures...or die trying!"

I think calling a game heroic fantasy, heroic sci-fi, etc. is a good descriptor. I can tell what the game is about, and assume most people can too. It's vastly more descriptive than "creating stories," at least to me.

Certainly it won't tell you everything about the game, but that's why they made back cover blurbs and surly internet game reviewers.

Quote from: ColonelHardissonHmm. I think that "American hero" trope is only one of many, and is arguably not the most prevalent here in the US.

[Snip]

So, to actually get to the point, I think the last bit is what defines a hero - a moral compunction to do the right thing, regardless of consequences to oneself. You'll notice a lot of American movies and TV in which there are heroes with superhuman powers and abilities, and you'll also notice that they are deprived of those abilities and powers a lot of the time, but continue to act heroically. I guess the lesson in that is the powers aren't what make the hero, it's his heart, which any of us can have.

Right on, Colonel! Preach it!

-clash

For that matter, here in the UK our heros are supposed to effortlessly glide over all obstacles like Gods - it's all very class based. The Working Class Hero tends to appear when needed (during a war, where factory workers and related scummy soldiers do most of the heavy lifting (Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy how's yer soul?" But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll)). Shortly after holstilities cease, we go back to tales of noble hofficers - The Few of the battle of britain, King Arthur and his knights etc.

We're Anglo-Saxons. We value success over all else. Anything else is the result of having talking change.

A hero ain't nuthin' but a sandwhich. Didn't you ever hear that?

Quote from: JimBobOzThe British idea of "hero", by comparison, is the ordinary person who in an extreme situation does extraordinary things.

That's my definition.  Also the heroism of hero can (but not necessarily does) act as an inspirational example

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy superhero stories, but only if the characters would be heroes even if they didn't have their extraordinary abilities

Wow, I hope I never have an answer to that question.

The answer would be boring ... static.  The question, now that's fun.

That's much of what I do in an RPG:  I make a character about whom I can ask "Hrm ... is this guy a hero?" and then I go and play around with the question.  I usually don't get an answer (never do figure out "Oh, yes, this guy's clearly a hero!" or "No, this guy isn't a hero") but that's not the purpose anyway

Quote from: TonyLBWow, I hope I never have an answer to that question.

The answer would be boring ... static.  The question, now that's fun.

That's much of what I do in an RPG:  I make a character about whom I can ask "Hrm ... is this guy a hero?" and then I go and play around with the question.  I usually don't get an answer (never do figure out "Oh, yes, this guy's clearly a hero!" or "No, this guy isn't a hero") but that's not the purpose anyway

Hi Tony:

I think you have the right of it when thinking about your own character, but you can answer that question about other people's characters, so long as everyone realizes that that answer is your own, and only applies to you. Of course, Capes charcter's excepted!

-clash