So what class or arc type would you say is the hardest to disign for?


My bet is on a machinist or gadgetier. yes I've been working on one so I've been thinking about it so whats everyone elses bet?

My hang up is I keep hanging up on exactly how to make an gadget thats not just a bomb or rapid fire gimick. Not that those arn't important holes to fill in a ability set but they shouldn't be the only holes a class fills. The trick I've found helps is thinking of cartoon physics and pumping it up to 11.

( plan on cross posting this by the only other rpgsite I frequent)

Quote from: kosmos1214 on November 25, 2024, 06:14:03 PMSo what class or arc type would you say is the hardest to disign for?

My bet is on a machinist or gadgetier. yes I've been working on one so I've been thinking about it so whats everyone elses bet?

My hang up is I keep hanging up on exactly how to make an gadget thats not just a bomb or rapid fire gimick. Not that those arn't important holes to fill in a ability set but they shouldn't be the only holes a class fills. The trick I've found helps is thinking of cartoon physics and pumping it up to 11.

( plan on cross posting this by the only other rpgsite I frequent)

Fighter.

Because as soon as you try to give it anything nice, someone pitches a fit about how, in a world of magic and demigods, the fighter's feats must remain entirely mundane.

Never mind that the level 8 AD&D title was Superhero or that examples of fighters include guys like Hercules who held up the sky and redirected rivers. They must be Joe Average or someone is gonna complain.

By contrast, gadgets are just an alternate presentation (fluff) for spells/magic items. Heck, add a tube and a fuse to fireball's existing material components and you'd have a single-use black powder rocket.

Quote from: Chris24601 on November 25, 2024, 08:43:10 PM

Quote from: kosmos1214 on November 25, 2024, 06:14:03 PMSo what class or arc type would you say is the hardest to disign for?

My bet is on a machinist or gadgetier. yes I've been working on one so I've been thinking about it so whats everyone elses bet?

My hang up is I keep hanging up on exactly how to make an gadget thats not just a bomb or rapid fire gimick. Not that those arn't important holes to fill in a ability set but they shouldn't be the only holes a class fills. The trick I've found helps is thinking of cartoon physics and pumping it up to 11.

( plan on cross posting this by the only other rpgsite I frequent)

Fighter.

Because as soon as you try to give it anything nice, someone pitches a fit about how, in a world of magic and demigods, the fighter's feats must remain entirely mundane.

Never mind that the level 8 AD&D title was Superhero or that examples of fighters include guys like Hercules who held up the sky and redirected rivers. They must be Joe Average or someone is gonna complain.

By contrast, gadgets are just an alternate presentation (fluff) for spells/magic items. Heck, add a tube and a fuse to fireball's existing material components and you'd have a single-use black powder rocket.

It's kind of funny you say that for 2 reasons. The first being that the game I'm trying to make started as a fighter feat set that would have given a first level fighter the option of a flameing sonic boom from there sword (think sol bad guys ground slave from guilty gear). The second reason its funny is that the system I'm building uses an all things being equal disign so warrior sword techniques end up having a spell style write up.

Quote from: kosmos1214 on November 25, 2024, 09:48:09 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on November 25, 2024, 08:43:10 PM

Quote from: kosmos1214 on November 25, 2024, 06:14:03 PMSo what class or arc type would you say is the hardest to disign for?

My bet is on a machinist or gadgetier. yes I've been working on one so I've been thinking about it so whats everyone elses bet?

My hang up is I keep hanging up on exactly how to make an gadget thats not just a bomb or rapid fire gimick. Not that those arn't important holes to fill in a ability set but they shouldn't be the only holes a class fills. The trick I've found helps is thinking of cartoon physics and pumping it up to 11.

( plan on cross posting this by the only other rpgsite I frequent)

Fighter.

Because as soon as you try to give it anything nice, someone pitches a fit about how, in a world of magic and demigods, the fighter's feats must remain entirely mundane.

Never mind that the level 8 AD&D title was Superhero or that examples of fighters include guys like Hercules who held up the sky and redirected rivers. They must be Joe Average or someone is gonna complain.

By contrast, gadgets are just an alternate presentation (fluff) for spells/magic items. Heck, add a tube and a fuse to fireball's existing material components and you'd have a single-use black powder rocket.

It's kind of funny you say that for 2 reasons. The first being that the game I'm trying to make started as a fighter feat set that would have given a first level fighter the option of a flameing sonic boom from there sword (think sol bad guys ground slave from guilty gear). The second reason its funny is that the system I'm building uses an all things being equal disign so warrior sword techniques end up having a spell style write up.

Excellent. I approve.

However, if you're sharing it outside of curated groups, brace yourself for the inevitable pushback from the "Fighters can't have nice things" crowd. Even Mike "You Can't Shout Your Hand Back On" Mearls got in on the act by ignoring, of course, that the system in question had no dismemberment rules so his gripe was nothing more than a strawman. Non-spellcasters got cool toys for once and that's just not allowed.

Artificer, and I know this from having created several classes / sets of mechanics myself.  If, frex, an alchemist can make 1000 explodey potions in the month before the adventure and carry them all in a bag of holding, how do you balance this against a wizard who has x fireballs per day with doing something arbitrary and lacking in-setting explanation?  It can be done, and I've done it, but it's a heck of a lot more work than any other type of class to get it right.

Quote from: Mishihari on November 25, 2024, 11:33:42 PMArtificer, and I know this from having created several classes / sets of mechanics myself.  If, frex, an alchemist can make 1000 explodey potions in the month before the adventure and carry them all in a bag of holding, how do you balance this against a wizard who has x fireballs per day with doing something arbitrary and lacking in-setting explanation?  It can be done, and I've done it, but it's a heck of a lot more work than any other type of class to get it right.

Mostly agree that artificers/mechanic classes suck to balance. they work narratively because the balance there is prep time. In stories, you can limit the artificer by materials and time. But making crafting rules specifically for the party artificer is a hassle. Then you have to weigh the play time because either you completely shift the timetable of adventurers or make the artificer OP when they have items or useless without them.

Quote from: Hzilong on November 26, 2024, 12:12:43 AM

Quote from: Mishihari on November 25, 2024, 11:33:42 PMArtificer, and I know this from having created several classes / sets of mechanics myself.  If, frex, an alchemist can make 1000 explodey potions in the month before the adventure and carry them all in a bag of holding, how do you balance this against a wizard who has x fireballs per day with doing something arbitrary and lacking in-setting explanation?  It can be done, and I've done it, but it's a heck of a lot more work than any other type of class to get it right.

Mostly agree that artificers/mechanic classes suck to balance. they work narratively because the balance there is prep time. In stories, you can limit the artificer by materials and time. But making crafting rules specifically for the party artificer is a hassle. Then you have to weigh the play time because either you completely shift the timetable of adventurers or make the artificer OP when they have items or useless without them.

The only way I've ever seen it work is limiting the artificer by level instead of time.  For example, the artificer can make X number of potions per level, and must use or discard one in order to make another.  It's completely gamely, though, as you really can't justify it well in the fiction.  And, at that point, you've  just got a  reskinned wizard with item slots instead of spell slots...

The pacifistic healer.  There are a handful of games where it works just fine, but the typical D&D game is not one of them.  Strangely enough, it works out better the more players/characters there are in the party, which means that it can be a better fit for AD&D or BEMCI/RC than any WotC version. 

It's a difficult path to walk, because in order to work well there has to be something for the pacifistic healer to do, but not so much combat as to leave them sidelined or bring up the question as to why the healer is hanging around with these killers all the time.  Works better, of course, in a game where disease and poison are harder to deal with, or maybe a heavily exploration game with wild beast attacks out in the wilderness and ancient traps. 

As for the alchemist/artificer, I think the main problem with it is trying to make it like a WotC class, where everyone can do something all the time.  If you are going that route, just make it a special version of one of the casting classes with alternate flavored spells.  If that's what it is anyway, no need for special mechanics.

If you want one that actually is what it is labeled, then better to go one of two routes:

1. AD&D glass cannon wizard-type on steroids.  Make the formulas difficult to pull off, even more than spells, longer to prepare, require special components, etc.  You know, the actual archetype of struggling in the lab.  Give plenty of chances of failure while preparing.  But trade that for a massive bang in execution of the stuff.  Enforce encumbrance and time and all that AD&D stuff that gets glossed over today.  This guy is the ultimate in resource management, because his resources are hard to replace. He doesn't waste a bomb on a pack of goblins that his pals can easily take out, instead gets off a few crossbow shots.

2. Make alternately flavored items that work a lot like spells, except they take longer to cast, but can stay prepped for a few minutes.  With the ingredients he carries around, he can brew up a quick strength potion in your wineskin but those fizzy ingredients don't last more than a few rounds in the wine.  The trade off here should be the opposite of #1--relatively low power, slow to cast, a lot more "charges".

Quote from: Eirikrautha on November 26, 2024, 06:44:06 AMThe only way I've ever seen it work is limiting the artificer by level instead of time.  For example, the artificer can make X number of potions per level, and must use or discard one in order to make another.  It's completely gamely, though, as you really can't justify it well in the fiction.  And, at that point, you've  just got a  reskinned wizard with item slots instead of spell slots...

I have used material limitations. For artificers that could mean something like a rare ingredient that only the artificer knows how to use, while mechanic/engineer abilities might be constrained by limited energy supplies to power their machines.

Quote from: Chris24601 on November 25, 2024, 08:43:10 PM

Quote from: kosmos1214 on November 25, 2024, 06:14:03 PMSo what class or arc type would you say is the hardest to disign for?

My bet is on a machinist or gadgetier. yes I've been working on one so I've been thinking about it so whats everyone elses bet?

My hang up is I keep hanging up on exactly how to make an gadget thats not just a bomb or rapid fire gimick. Not that those arn't important holes to fill in a ability set but they shouldn't be the only holes a class fills. The trick I've found helps is thinking of cartoon physics and pumping it up to 11.

( plan on cross posting this by the only other rpgsite I frequent)

Fighter.

Because as soon as you try to give it anything nice, someone pitches a fit about how, in a world of magic and demigods, the fighter's feats must remain entirely mundane.

Never mind that the level 8 AD&D title was Superhero or that examples of fighters include guys like Hercules who held up the sky and redirected rivers. They must be Joe Average or someone is gonna complain.

By contrast, gadgets are just an alternate presentation (fluff) for spells/magic items. Heck, add a tube and a fuse to fireball's existing material components and you'd have a single-use black powder rocket.

Quoted for amusement.

My big complaint is everyone else gets their class restrictions lifted away over time, while the fighter's benefits are put up for auction wholesale upon multi-classing. And then gear technology will never advance again, frozen forever, because we need to sell more splats with new spells for that... because fighters can't have nice things, like barbed fishhooks, explosive black powder, or complex netting.

I was going to say the sorcerer-assassin, but on further thought, all assassins are a bit of a design issue for most RPGs. For one thing, assassination is inherently a lone wolf activity, and RPGs are designed around team play. For another, the whole point of an assassin is to be able to reliably kill in one hit. Most RPG rules really don't want a character to be able to do that. Giving out a "sudden death" ability to a single class is such a problem to balance that it's usually limited to the point of being almost useless.

Do you allow races and factions to be discussed too? Non-D&D-derived games?

The original Torg's Nile Empire did gadgeteering heroes rather well.

2e D&D's Al-qadim setting and the Complete Sha'ir book had a rather fascinating take on a gadgeting approach to magic.

Quote from: Chris24601 on November 25, 2024, 08:43:10 PM

Quote from: kosmos1214 on November 25, 2024, 06:14:03 PMSo what class or arc type would you say is the hardest to disign for?

My bet is on a machinist or gadgetier. yes I've been working on one so I've been thinking about it so whats everyone elses bet?

My hang up is I keep hanging up on exactly how to make an gadget thats not just a bomb or rapid fire gimick. Not that those arn't important holes to fill in a ability set but they shouldn't be the only holes a class fills. The trick I've found helps is thinking of cartoon physics and pumping it up to 11.

( plan on cross posting this by the only other rpgsite I frequent)

Fighter.

Because as soon as you try to give it anything nice, someone pitches a fit about how, in a world of magic and demigods, the fighter's feats must remain entirely mundane.

Never mind that the level 8 AD&D title was Superhero or that examples of fighters include guys like Hercules who held up the sky and redirected rivers. They must be Joe Average or someone is gonna complain.

By contrast, gadgets are just an alternate presentation (fluff) for spells/magic items. Heck, add a tube and a fuse to fireball's existing material components and you'd have a single-use black powder rocket.

I havent had this problem with fighters in my expirence, but id chalk that up to most of my players also being into anime lol.

Quote from: Hzilong on November 26, 2024, 12:12:43 AM

Quote from: Mishihari on November 25, 2024, 11:33:42 PMArtificer, and I know this from having created several classes / sets of mechanics myself.  If, frex, an alchemist can make 1000 explodey potions in the month before the adventure and carry them all in a bag of holding, how do you balance this against a wizard who has x fireballs per day with doing something arbitrary and lacking in-setting explanation?  It can be done, and I've done it, but it's a heck of a lot more work than any other type of class to get it right.

Mostly agree that artificers/mechanic classes suck to balance. they work narratively because the balance there is prep time. In stories, you can limit the artificer by materials and time. But making crafting rules specifically for the party artificer is a hassle. Then you have to weigh the play time because either you completely shift the timetable of adventurers or make the artificer OP when they have items or useless without them.

I fucking hate this class with the passion of a 1000 burning suns in the pit of hades. It's due to 1 player who wants to solve every problem with a fucking trinket and design and it distracts from the game as he goes through the motions of thinking he's outsmarted me as the DM and then pouts like a child when he's found to be dead wrong in his assumption of game mechanics.