After breaking the news that Cubicle 7 has acquired licensing rights for Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay (http://grimandperilous.com/?p=1058), there's been a lot of threads across other forums asking what the community would like to see in the next edition. So, I thought I'd start the conversation here as well.
Assuming there is a new edition:
What I really want to see in a new edition of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay (http://grimandperilous.com) is to revisit the Age of Three Emperors. The man vs man conflict has always been more interesting to me, than simply man vs roving bands of mutant hordes. I also hope to see a return to the d100 system. For all of Fantasy Flight Game's fun narrative mechanics, the 'fiddly bits' made setting up a continuing weekly game difficult. Finally, I would also like to see a more open-ended career system, removing the career path limitations of previous editions.
Assuming they keep the old edition:
I'd love to see the Career Compendium and the main rulebook combined together. I'd also like to see more softback options with perfect binding. The last run by Green Ronin wasn't the best when it came to binding. I'd also love to see The Enemy Within 1e adapted to the 2e edition rules. That would be a major, major draw for me.
In the meanwhile, I'm hoping that ZWEIHÄNDER Grim & Perilous RPG (http://warhammerfantasyroleplay.com) can be the community's bridge between editions, as it's been designed as a Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay retroclone.
Skip the fourth edition and go straight to fifth. The number four is cursed. The number four is death.
Quote from: Cave Bear;943263Skip the fourth edition and go straight to fifth. The number four is cursed. The number four is death.
Hah! Fair point.
On a somewhat related topic, I wonder what WFRP would look like beneath the lens of D&D 5th edition rules? Cubicle 7 seems to have their development focused on those mechanics (The One Ring, as an example). I am unsure if it would work, given that career movement is one of the hallmarks of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay (http://grimandperilous.com). Is there a multi-class equivalent in 5e D&D?
Well, I've said it elsewhere but fewer wounds than second edition. The whiff factor and ten wound average can make combats very slow.
I like second edition mechanically for the most part but I'd use the 40k version of critical hits where it's just the number of excess wounds that's looked up on the chart.
I'd like magic to be less rigid than it is in second edition. Probably have the colleges just have specialized lists they teach but allow the learning of anything you can find a teacher for. Learning individual spells rather than full lists I guess.
Tone wise I think it would be nice to roll back towards first edition. A little more black humour and a little less angst.
I ran WFRP 1E for years back in the 80s and early 90s. The main issue is how the career system generally didn't work well past the first couple of advances. As a character generation tool is was fantastic. Players got to pick a general class, but got a random career within it. People shuffling to their desired career was a nice story driver in the early sessions of a campaign. It was a perfect balance of choice and randomness.
The problem is that careers are really short. For the guy who wanted to be a wizard, that was fine. There was a whole track of careers (Apprentice -> Wizard 1 ->Wizard 2 and on). For the guy who wanted to be a burglar, he run out of road really quickly. He was stuck just moving through careers that had little to do with what he did, simply to pick up advances that were helpful to a burglar. Something that added a lot of flavor to a game early on began to feel arbitrary, artificial and constraining.
I don't want the career system demolished. It is a great for character generation, but they need to tweak the way if works for advancement.
I'd also be fine with reducing the whiffs in combat. That won't necessarily make the game more heroic. As it stands, a back-alley knifefight in WFRP is something where it takes a lot of time an effort for someone to get seriously wounded. Cutting down on the whiffiness could actually make the game closer to the grittier mood that is aspires to.
I haven't run the game since 1st edition, so while I remember the combat was fun but wonky in places, I can't remember specifics. I also don't know what was fixed or further broken in the 2nd edition.
I'd most like for it to get the tone and humor right. It's promising that it is being done by a UK company. WFRP calls for a distinctly British sense of humor, and while I like American humor too, Americans can sometimes go very wrong when they try to imitate a British sense of humor.
There's no indication yet that there will be a 4th edition. All i see so far is opportunistic linkage - must be Monday.
If there is, you C7 guys know where i am.
Quote from: Baulderstone;943272The problem is that careers are really short. For the guy who wanted to be a wizard, that was fine. There was a whole track of careers (Apprentice -> Wizard 1 ->Wizard 2 and on). For the guy who wanted to be a burglar, he run out of road really quickly. He was stuck just moving through careers that had little to do with what he did, simply to pick up advances that were helpful to a burglar. Something that added a lot of flavor to a game early on began to feel arbitrary, artificial and constraining.
That's true, but it seems a little like a self-imposed limitation by the player. The Advanced Careers - (if I'm remembering the term right - it's been a couple of years since I've owned WFRP1, and probably 15 years since I last played it) - were all higher-status, movers-and-shakers. Or just had a lot more influence among NPCs or in society. The expectation seemed to be that eventually the characters would develop in that direction. That they wouldn't be content with just being a Rat Catcher, or Burglar for their entire careers.
If a player sets out to have his character be a Burglar throughout his lifespan - and there's aren't options for advancement into becoming a Master Burglar (or whatever) - he's kind of cemented that character into a lower social class role in society. And as a result, closed off opportunities for skill growth and development.
Quote from: K Peterson;943283If a player sets out to have his character be a Burglar throughout his lifespan - and there's aren't options for advancement into becoming a Master Burglar (or whatever) - he's kind of cemented that character into a lower social class role in society. And as a result, closed off opportunities for skill growth and development.
2e addressed that to some degree with added advanced careers like Master Thief, Champion etc. It gave people who wanted to remain in their 'niche' somewhere to go that gave them better advances whilst retaining their character concept. Still didn't quite work (the career system is both the best part and the slightly wonky part of the game) but improved on v1 in that regard. 2e also made advances 5% instead of 10%, so it took more advances to get through a career anyhow.
I really don't need or want a new WFRP. The one I've got isn't broken.
A sourcebook on Lustria... in its earlier incarnation, with space toads, pygmies, amazons with laser pistols... volcanoes and dinosaurs... THAT would be nice to have. Ain't gonna happen though, so... meh.
Quote from: K Peterson;943283If a player sets out to have his character be a Burglar throughout his lifespan - and there's aren't options for advancement into becoming a Master Burglar (or whatever) - he's kind of cemented that character into a lower social class role in society. And as a result, closed off opportunities for skill growth and development.
This was my number one issue with WFRP 2e. I eventually 'unhitched' the arbitrary career paths, and let players go the direction the story took them - damn the game balance. Although it did create some math oddities, players were far more happy with the end result. It was also critical for development in ZWEIHÄNDER, when we began to evaluate the need for career paths.
WFRP2e with more explicit throwbacks to the vibe of 1e.
In fact, what I hope more from the WH licence is a WH40K RPG that is line with WFRP2e i.e. capable of playing a variety of character types and games at that level of complexity.
Make Only War's streamlining of the system standard, add in Black Crusade's alignment sub-system, make point-buy standard, wounds calc'd based on chars, make critical damage table a proper random roll instead of a "build-up" (and also make 10s instant death across the board)...
Essentially, make it not shit and completely broken outside of proscribed gameplay.
Quote from: K Peterson;943283That's true, but it seems a little like a self-imposed limitation by the player. The Advanced Careers - (if I'm remembering the term right - it's been a couple of years since I've owned WFRP1, and probably 15 years since I last played it) - were all higher-status, movers-and-shakers. Or just had a lot more influence among NPCs or in society. The expectation seemed to be that eventually the characters would develop in that direction. That they wouldn't be content with just being a Rat Catcher, or Burglar for their entire careers.
If a player sets out to have his character be a Burglar throughout his lifespan - and there's aren't options for advancement into becoming a Master Burglar (or whatever) - he's kind of cemented that character into a lower social class role in society. And as a result, closed off opportunities for skill growth and development.
It's not that he didn't ever want to move up, but it is a really short path to the advanced careers, and he still had a lot going on in the game. A lot of the Advanced Careers are the equivalent of moving to a desk job. Instead of being a burglar, he could move to being a fence. That didn't fit at all with the ongoing plots he had going on, but he took it anyway, and then it doesn't take too long to exhaust that. Then you just spend your time going back and grubbing through basic careers for advances you can use. The game really didn't support playing administrative characters anyway, and none of the supplements and adventures gave any impression of it as a style of play.
Granted, we were in high school and had a lot of gaming time, but it only took a matter of months before you hit the "bouncing around careers nonsensically" stage of play unless you were a spell caster.
I would be one thing if reaching the end of the "burglar" path meant you were a peerless expert at it. Then it would make sense for the PC to move on to a new challenge. But the player still had advances they wanted to improve, and they had to shop around randomly to do it.
Just to be clear, it's not like the system was completely broken. We got buy with it. I was just inelegant, and felt like the kind of thing worthy of fixing in a future edition.
Topic Creep!
First thing I'd like C7 to do with the license is make all the old stuff available through DTRPG. WFRP1, 2 and 3 if they can.
Sell All the Warhammers!!
After that, if they are doing to do WFRP4 they need to...
1. Make sure Jay Little is nowhere on the continent when they begin.
2. Don't make some kind of New School game with lots of OOC Thematic Story Mechanics (or really any at all)
3. Don't make it a TOR hack.
4. Don't make it a 5e hack.
As far as specific mechanics, more on that later...
Quote from: CRKrueger;943308Topic Creep!
First thing I'd like C7 to do with the license is make all the old stuff available through DTRPG. WFRP1, 2 and 3 if they can.
Sell All the Warhammers!!
After that, if they are doing to do WFRP4 they need to...
1. Make sure Jay Little is nowhere on the continent when they begin.
2. Don't make some kind of New School game with lots of OOC Thematic Story Mechanics (or really any at all)
3. Don't make it a TOR hack.
4. Don't make it a 5e hack.
As far as specific mechanics, more on that later...
So, you want the Warhammer Fantasy Battles game? Don't they already have that?
Shut up Brady.
I'm a little confused. It's been widely established (no idea how accurate, just that I've heard this from multiple sources) that Warhammer Fantasy 1e directly influenced D&D 3e, which has also been reviled by the OSR for being waay to 'New School', so Kruggy's desire of not wanting any thing New School (whatever the fuck that means) is implying that anything WFRPG 1e is not what he wants. Ergo, means he wants to go back further into the roots, which is the war game.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;943318I'm a little confused.
It is your natural state. Now stop trying to pick a fight with your little sparring partner and go talk about something that A) You give a shit about and B) You know something about. I realise that narrows the scope of your interaction with the forum to a tiny proportion of threads, but your spiel is starting to vex me.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;943318...any thing New School (whatever the fuck that means)...
I think it's pretty clear what he meant, because he tacked some details on to the end of the sentence -
"with lots of OOC Thematic Story Mechanics (or really any at all)". Does that have anything to do with D&D3e, or the OSR, or a reverse-relationship between D&D3 and WFRP1? No. Then why bring it up? Because otherwise it just sounds like you're doing some ridiculous logic gymnastics to troll your enemies.
Quote from: CRKrueger;943308After that, if they are doing to do WFRP4 they need to...
1. Make sure Jay Little is nowhere on the continent when they begin.
How the hell did Modiphius let WFRP slip through their fingers? ;) I figured that they'd find some way to get their grubby mitts on it, and get Little to convert it to 2D20...
Quote from: K Peterson;943324How the hell did Modiphius let WFRP slip through their fingers? ;) I figured that they'd find some way to get their grubby mitts on it, and get Little to convert it to 2D20...
They have said that they had enough on their plate and didn't even bid for it. Apparently they have another big announcement in Spring 2017.
Quote from: Skywalker;943326They have said that they had enough on their plate and didn't even bid for it. Apparently they have another big announcement in Spring 2017.
All i can say is thank God!
Quote from: Skywalker;943326They have said that they had enough on their plate and didn't even bid for it. Apparently they have another big announcement in Spring 2017.
That makes sense. How many game lines do they have now in the early stages of development?
To answer the OP: I'm not sure I'd really care about a WFRP4e. I doubt I'd buy it unless it hearkened back to 1e/2e mechanics. I'd definitely go for pdfs of 1e/2e material, though.
Honestly its unlikely Cubicle7 will do anything with warhammer that interests me.
The chances of them returning to everything that made the first edition of the RPG special is astronomically unlikely.
They might come up with an interesting system, but thats what I've thought of each of the C7 systems I've read..."thats interesting", and then continue to using the systems I already use.
Worste case scenario they'l be basing the game on the current Age of Sigmar fluff, rather than the Old World. And AoS has just incredibly retarded fluff, a nonsensical setting, and is focused on this over-the-top fantastical over-designed aesthetic so that the eponymous "ratcatcher with small vicious dog" that was so iconic of the 1st edition would be nothing more than a stain on the heels of a Sigmarine trampling his way through the "Realms of Retarded Names".
Quote from: CRKrueger;943308Topic Creep!
First thing I'd like C7 to do with the license is make all the old stuff available through DTRPG. WFRP1, 2 and 3 if they can.
Sell All the Warhammers!!
After that, if they are doing to do WFRP4 they need to...
1. Make sure Jay Little is nowhere on the continent when they begin.
2. Don't make some kind of New School game with lots of OOC Thematic Story Mechanics (or really any at all)
3. Don't make it a TOR hack.
4. Don't make it a 5e hack.
As far as specific mechanics, more on that later...
Geedubs is neeeeeeever gonna allow that dude. They are the mid-4e stage WotC - but forever. Unfortunately they're so goddamn popular they can keep pissing on the old guard until they leave and on the new guys and tell 'em it's raining and they'll line up to pay for it.
I want an Age of Sigmar RPG.
Why? I already have WFRP 1e. I checked on it last night and its still functioning just fine. Turns out the announcement of a new edition did not ignite my old books thanks to the sigil of protection I placed on their flesh bound pages which I earned from my many skull sacrifices to Khorne.
I have zero interest in a rehash of stuff I own.
My hope for Cubicle 7 is a multi-year very lengthy delay so Zweihander can establish and develop his retro-whatever in the marketplace.
Zwei's deserves that after all his 24/7 shilling! :D
Quote from: Spinachcat;943347I want an Age of Sigmar RPG.
To be honest, I don't know if I do. The fluff I read... well, I got bored and put it down. It's nowhere near as interesting as the old stuff, or the 40k stuff.
Quote from: Skywalker;943293WFRP2e with more explicit throwbacks to the vibe of 1e.
Yeah, pretty much this, though I also want 1e's setting and some of the rules.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;943318Warhammer Fantasy 1e directly influenced D&D 3e
(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/173/576/Wat8.jpg)
Quote from: Spinachcat;943347I want an Age of Sigmar RPG.
Godbound?
Every case like this that comes up firms up my belief that when people start talking about the 4th edition of some game, you should probably ditch most of the crap clogging up your bookshelves and just play the first edition. Can anyone name me a game that is actually better - as a game you play, not a collectable fetish objet - in its 4th edition than in its 1st?
Quote from: Larsdangly;943366Can anyone name me a game that is actually better - as a game you play, not a collectable fetish objet - in its 4th edition than in its 1st?
Champions seems to have pulled it off for most fans.
I haven't been blown away by the Age of Sigmar fluff, but I'm open to the newness. C7 isn't gonna dig into the awesome of early WFB for their fluff and everything in the later fluff feels like rehash.
BTW, have there been any good Age of Sigmar novels?
Quote from: The Butcher;943365Godbound?
Interesting...
If the C7 WFRP isn't Age of Sigmar, there might be value in SineNomine chatting with GW.
Quote from: K Peterson;943323I think it's pretty clear what he meant, because he tacked some details on to the end of the sentence - "with lots of OOC Thematic Story Mechanics (or really any at all)". Does that have anything to do with D&D3e, or the OSR, or a reverse-relationship between D&D3 and WFRP1? No. Then why bring it up? Because otherwise it just sounds like you're doing some ridiculous logic gymnastics to troll your enemies.
Which has only shown in White Wolf 'one true way to play' mechanics, like Humanity. So I have no idea what he's talking about because there's nothing Story Mechanic about anything he's mentioned in his random screed. And given that anyone who plays 3.x D&D is obviously 'New School', despite not having anything Story Game about it... I can only assume he's going on about nothing. Again.
Quote from: Spinachcat;943375I haven't been blown away by the Age of Sigmar fluff, but I'm open to the newness. C7 isn't gonna dig into the awesome of early WFB for their fluff and everything in the later fluff feels like rehash.
BTW, have there been any good Age of Sigmar novels?
I've not read the novels,but the rulebook fluff was absolutely abysmal.
For those that missed it, basically after the Old World got blowed up, Sigmar floated through out space all bored and stuff until he met a magic space dragon, and the two became BFFs. The space dragon taught Sigmar magic and he used it to create a new set of "realms": Hysh, Chamon, Ghyran, Azyr, Ulgu, Shyish, Aqshy, and Ghur (wish I was making those names up). Then he used his space magic to bring back to life all his old friends, like Nagash and the Orcs (if thats a WTF moment for you, you're not alone).
Everything was all peachy then until the elves got a stick up their butt about what happened in The Old World and use magic to travel
back to the Old World to punish the Chaos god Slaanesh (because thats a plan that makes sense). They end up not being able to find Slaanesh, but by doing this they alert the Chaos gods to the existence of these new realms, so Khorne, Nurgle, and Tzeentch show up and basically turn everywhere into a hellscape and generally fuck the place up, while Sigmar locks himself in his room and pouts. After about a millennia of letting the Chaos gods do whatever they want, Sigmar uses new magic to take a bunch of souls of dead heroes and turn them into space marines. And now the Sigmarines are launching attacks on the various realms, beating up Chaos and looking around for magic items they lost in life.
Oh, and the Skaven managed to dig holes under...well,
existence apparently...allowing them to pop up into any realm and be the nasty assholes they've always been, only now they also have Rat Marines ...er, "Stormfiends"...and the Great Horned Rat noticed Slaanesh was missing and basically took his place as the fourth Chaos God.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;943340Geedubs is neeeeeeever gonna allow that dude. They are the mid-4e stage WotC - but forever. Unfortunately they're so goddamn popular they can keep pissing on the old guard until they leave and on the new guys and tell 'em it's raining and they'll line up to pay for it.
Two years ago I would have agreed with you. But as of the new man in charge, GW has made a total 180 in both customer relations and making amends to the Old Guard.
Quote from: Tristram Evans;943377The space dragon taught Sigmar magic and he used it to create a new set of "realms": Hysh, Chamon, Ghyran, Azyr, Ulgu, Shyish, Aqshy, and Ghur (wish I was making those names up).
I wish you were too!!
Holy fuck.
Quote from: Tristram Evans;943377Then he used his space magic to bring back to life all his old friends, like Nagash and the Orcs (if thats a WTF moment for you, you're not alone).
Holy WTF.
Quote from: Tristram Evans;943377After about a millennia of letting the Chaos gods do whatever they want, Sigmar uses new magic to take a bunch of souls of dead heroes and turn them into space marines. And now the Sigmarines are launching attacks on the various realms, beating up Chaos and looking around for magic items they lost in life.
I...could be okay with this as a RPG...
...but your take on the setting fluff is incredibly painful, and sadly it matches up with what I've seen discussed on the WFB forums.
Thank you Tristram??
Quote from: Christopher Brady;943318I'm a little confused. It's been widely established (no idea how accurate, just that I've heard this from multiple sources) that Warhammer Fantasy 1e directly influenced D&D 3e, which has also been reviled by the OSR for being waay to 'New School', so Kruggy's desire of not wanting any thing New School (whatever the fuck that means) is implying that anything WFRPG 1e is not what he wants. Ergo, means he wants to go back further into the roots, which is the war game.
WFRP 1e is in no way a "New School" game. It's pretty clear from context that CRKrueger is defining a "New School" game as being akin to 2d20. Something like Cortex Plus, Apocalypse Engine, FATE Core, or the like. It's pretty clear he did not mean any game created post 1981.
As for WFRP's influence on D&D3e, it's pretty miminal - prestige classes. The biggest influences, other than D&D, were Rolemaster (skill ranks), Ars Magica (ability modifiers, difficulty classes) and the Fallout videogame (feats). Personally, I always thought that prestige classes were more directly influenced by the Jobs system in the Final Fantasy videogames.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;943318I'm a little confused. It's been widely established (no idea how accurate, just that I've heard this from multiple sources) that Warhammer Fantasy 1e directly influenced D&D 3e
Your sources are veryveryvery wrong.
Quote from: yojimbouk;943402WFRP 1e is in no way a "New School" game. It's pretty clear from context that CRKrueger is defining a "New School" game as being akin to 2d20. Something like Cortex Plus, Apocalypse Engine, FATE Core, or the like. It's pretty clear he did not mean any game created post 1981.
As for WFRP's influence on D&D3e, it's pretty miminal - prestige classes. The biggest influences, other than D&D, were Rolemaster (skill ranks), Ars Magica (ability modifiers, difficulty classes) and the Fallout videogame (feats). Personally, I always thought that prestige classes were more directly influenced by the Jobs system in the Final Fantasy videogames.
I think Earthdawn might even have a bit of influence. But I dont think even Prestige classes can be blamed on Warhammer.
Quote from: K Peterson;943323I think it's pretty clear what he meant
Quote from: One Horse Town;943313Shut up Brady.
Quote from: The Butcher;943365(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/173/576/Wat8.jpg)
Quote from: yojimbouk;943402It's pretty clear from context
Quote from: Tristram Evans;943403Your sources are veryveryvery wrong.
Forget it guys, it's Brady.
Fairly certain Age of Sigmar is a different license (at least on the computer games side of things).
If they are making WFRP4...
Setting - 1e days, before Archaon's 13th Black Crusad...err I mean Storm of Chaos. Probably will be unable to roll back Bretonnia and the Darklands (never was a big fan of Mongol Ogres), but you never know. Since it technically doesn't exist anymore as a miniature line, what the hell do they care where you put your game in the established timeline?
System - A blend of 1e and 2e.
- I liked the larger 1e statline.
- Moving damage to d10s in 2e helped with Naked Dwarf Syndrome.
- Careers being kinda wonky was always part of the charm, so keep them. It's ok to make more of them so you can stay a burglar but become a Cat Burglar, Master Jewel Thief, whatever.
- Don't completely balance everything with perfect math mechanically - it's ok to have, lets say a Templar of the White Wolf career be better, the balance comes through the setting.
Or, just do it in Mythras.
Or, just forget a new system, pick up where 2e left off and finally get around to detailing Tilea, Estalia and Araby.
What not to do...
Don't make it Fate, Xworld, 2d20, WFRP3, Cue, Cortex anything, FU, or in any way, shape or form turn it into a narrative shitshow or use the dissociated, abstract types of rules such games tend to prefer. (I swear to God, If I see Stress on a WFRP4 character sheet, I'm going to have to use twitter to get Trump to invade England.)
No Savage Worlds.
Having just read up on the Age of Sigmar fluff, I really do not want an Age of Sigmar game. It might make for a good war game but it's an unholy mess of a setting badly stitched together with a laughably poor story.
Give me WFRP 1.5. 1e setting with a tweaked 1e engine.
Age of Sigmar Fluff...you guys forgot the part where after The Old World exploded, Sigmar was kicking back on the metal core of the planet, made of...
wait for it...
Sigmarite.
Age of Sigmar isn't Game Workship fucking WFB fans.
It's not even Games Workshop ass-fucking fans.
It's Games Workshop Prison Raping fans then giving them a simultaneous Cleveland Steamer/Golden Shower.
Honestly?
With all the radical changes to fluff, 3-4 different variations, divided playerbases and most importantly, a high risk of said RPG being set in Age of Sigmarverse...I can't see any version of Warhammer that'll be significantly better than 1 and 2e.\
It's a license that should die with dignity, when it comes to RPGs.
I'm actually pretty happy with Shadow of the Demon Lord for my weird, dark fantasy kick. WHFRP4E would have to be pretty a pretty exceptional game to get me to look at it. I don't need setting material because...oh my glorb look at all the setting material out there on the Intarwebs.
Quote from: Tristram Evans;943378Two years ago I would have agreed with you. But as of the new man in charge, GW has made a total 180 in both customer relations and making amends to the Old Guard.
Yeah I...I don't believe that. I mean I'm not calling you a liar but I think they've got one hand extended and
yet another dagger in the other. Or, in the words of the immortal James T. Kirk:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjKVGB6JEfs
Quote from: Michael Gray;943490I'm actually pretty happy with Shadow of the Demon Lord for my weird, dark fantasy kick. WHFRP4E would have to be pretty a pretty exceptional game to get me to look at it. I don't need setting material because...oh my glorb look at all the setting material out there on the Intarwebs.
I've read SotDL, loved it, and I believe using the WFRP setting with SotDL system absolutely works, but it'll play like SotDL and nothing like WFRP.
Typical WFRP PC: Soldier > Veteran > Judicial Champion > Assassin > Witch Hunter.
Typical SotDL PC: Warrior > Fighter > Death Dealer.
WFRP feels more picaresque and lived-in than SotDL (and I love it for this). The career system reinforces this.
Quote from: The Butcher;943527I've read SotDL, loved it, and I believe using the WFRP setting with SotDL system absolutely works, but it'll play like SotDL and nothing like WFRP.
Typical WFRP PC: Soldier > Veteran > Judicial Champion > Assassin > Witch Hunter.
Typical SotDL PC: Warrior > Fighter > Death Dealer.
WFRP feels more picaresque and lived-in than SotDL (and I love it for this). The career system reinforces this.
Enh, I don't play Warhammer for the system, I do it for the setting.
Quote from: CRKrueger;943458Age of Sigmar Fluff...you guys forgot the part where after The Old World exploded, Sigmar was kicking back on the metal core of the planet, made of...
wait for it...
Sigmarite.
Age of Sigmar isn't Game Workship fucking WFB fans.
It's not even Games Workshop ass-fucking fans.
It's Games Workshop Prison Raping fans then giving them a simultaneous Cleveland Steamer/Golden Shower.
It was done with the specific need to able to copyright every last fucking syllable of the setting and wargame. The fluff reflects it.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;943526Yeah I...I don't believe that. I mean I'm not calling you a liar but I think they've got one hand extended and yet another dagger in the other. Or, in the words of the immortal James T. Kirk:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjKVGB6JEfs
Well,its not like your suspicion isn't warranted. But things have been good lately. I mean, they haven't ditched AoS and brought back the Old World yet, and honestly I still prefer the old miniature designs of the 80s/early 90s to today's over-designed stuff, but in general GW just keeps doing things that pleasantly surprise me these days.
Quote from: CRKrueger;943458Age of Sigmar Fluff...you guys forgot the part where after The Old World exploded, Sigmar was kicking back on the metal core of the planet, made of...
wait for it...
Sigmarite.
Age of Sigmar isn't Game Workship fucking WFB fans.
It's not even Games Workshop ass-fucking fans.
It's Games Workshop Prison Raping fans then giving them a simultaneous Cleveland Steamer/Golden Shower.
The sad thing is, I think the game itself is rather good. In many ways the best iteration of warhammer fantasy since 3rd edition. I appreciate the giant "fuck you" to tournament players, who have always been a cancer on the warhammer hobby, in favour of narrative play.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;943530It was done with the specific need to able to copyright every last fucking syllable of the setting and wargame. The fluff reflects it.
Yeah Orks are Orruks, Ogres are Ogors, Trolls are Troggoths, etc...
Still, they COULD have come up with a backstory that didn't seem like one of their 9-year old kids wrote it. They just purposely decided to say "fuck you" to the fans while doing it.
Do an Age of Sigmar RPG that is just completely over-the-top Masters-of-the-Universe-with-a-Queen-soundtrack lunacy. Demigods in KISS makeup fight psychedelic battles in Jim Starlin acid-trip cosmic warpspace.
But also make all the classic 1st & 2nd edition stuff available via PoD.
Everybody's happy. Or at least as happy as anybody can be in the dystopian fuckscape of 2017 AD.
Quote from: Tristram Evans;943534Well,its not like your suspicion isn't warranted. But things have been good lately. I mean, they haven't ditched AoS and brought back the Old World yet, and honestly I still prefer the old miniature designs of the 80s/early 90s to today's over-designed stuff, but in general GW just keeps doing things that pleasantly surprise me these days.
Well, when they bring back metal and stop charging $25/miniature and stop with their abusive retail and online practices let me know...
Quote from: CRKrueger;943547Yeah Orks are Orruks, Ogres are Ogors, Trolls are Troggoths, etc...
Still, they COULD have come up with a backstory that didn't seem like one of their 9-year old kids wrote it. They just purposely decided to say "fuck you" to the fans while doing it.
Hahaha lord are you kidding me? They're actually converting from standard fantasy monster tropes by scrambling names? That's like something you'd find on a kid's placemat at Denny's!
Quote from: thedungeondelver;943560Well, when they bring back metal and stop charging $25/miniature and stop with their abusive retail and online practices let me know...
The price of miniatures isn't likely to change, even Mantic's prices are going up, and GW's prices are on the higher end but actually pretty standard overall. However the new "get started" boxed sets are unprecedented deals, with sometimes as much as 50% off. As for bringing back metals, actually they've been sort of doing just that, with their "print on demand" series bringing back classic models. What are the "abusive retail and online practices" you mean, though?
Quote from: Michael Gray;943529Enh, I don't play Warhammer for the system, I do it for the setting.
More power to you, but setting and system feed back on each other.
Actually, I suspect SotDL might be a superior fit if you're into the Old World as presented in WFB. But for those of us who get a kick out of playing barber-surgeons, charcoal burners and rat catchers, it might not cut it. (Sure, there's the zero level thing, but much like DCC's funnel, to me it feels like paying lip service to the idea of starting off as an ordinary person.)
Quote from: thedungeondelver;943561Hahaha lord are you kidding me? They're actually converting from standard fantasy monster tropes by scrambling names? That's like something you'd find on a kid's placemat at Denny's!
Remember when GW tried to claim the term "Space Marine" and the whole world laughed at them? Well, then the Imperial Guard became Astra Militarum, etc. It at least made sense considering most of the Imperial organizations had Latin-like names.
This is just the company handing down orders to redo everything with trademarkable names, and the writers just not giving a shit.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;943561Hahaha lord are you kidding me? They're actually converting from standard fantasy monster tropes by scrambling names? That's like something you'd find on a kid's placemat at Denny's!
Wait till you hear about the, ekhm, Aelf. Or the Sigmarines.
Quote from: CRKrueger;943577Remember when GW tried to claim the term "Space Marine" and the whole world laughed at them? Well, then the Imperial Guard became Astra Militarum, etc. It at least made sense considering most of the Imperial organizations had Latin-like names.
This is just the company handing down orders to redo everything with trademarkable names, and the writers just not giving a shit.
Precisely. And they are also turning the handle on the 40k as well.
Quote from: One Horse Town;943328All i can say is thank God!
Amen.
Quote from: Tristram Evans;943563The price of miniatures isn't likely to change, even Mantic's prices are going up, and GW's prices are on the higher end but actually pretty standard overall. However the new "get started" boxed sets are unprecedented deals, with sometimes as much as 50% off. As for bringing back metals, actually they've been sort of doing just that, with their "print on demand" series bringing back classic models. What are the "abusive retail and online practices" you mean, though?
They ran a truck through every online retailer in NA - and it was even worse for independents in Australia. Basically, at least in the US, they told everyone "You must have a brick and mortar store or you cannot sell GW products, period."
Now, you might say "Well, it's their business and they can deal with outlets however they want," but I would point out another market leader who led an entire
industry in the 1980s who cut the throat of their retail businesses and it led to their collapse: Commodore International. The PET series, the Vic-20, the C64 and (initially) the Amiga took the world by storm. Sure, people give Apple credit - because Apple's still around. But the C64 outsold its competitors, the Amiga actually frightened Apple (a computer with true multi-media capability a decade before anyone knew what that was, with color and better sound etc. etc.)
But C= shat on their distribution chain. It was to the point where I was on the verge of buying a tricked-out Amiga2000 via mail-order and the vendor I called based on his ad told me "I can mail you a quote, but I can't tell you on the phone and I can't print it in magazine ads or Commodore will shut us down."
GW's shenanigans have that same stink to them.
Now, as for metal print-on-demand: tell me more. There's some metal LotR I'd like to have.
I'd just like to see that it wasn't complete and utter garbage like 3rd was.
Quote from: Tristram Evans;943377I've not read the novels,but the rulebook fluff was absolutely abysmal.
For those that missed it, basically after the Old World got blowed up, Sigmar floated through out space all bored and stuff until he met a magic space dragon, and the two became BFFs. The space dragon taught Sigmar magic and he used it to create a new set of "realms": Hysh, Chamon, Ghyran, Azyr, Ulgu, Shyish, Aqshy, and Ghur (wish I was making those names up). Then he used his space magic to bring back to life all his old friends, like Nagash and the Orcs (if thats a WTF moment for you, you're not alone).
Everything was all peachy then until the elves got a stick up their butt about what happened in The Old World and use magic to travel back to the Old World to punish the Chaos god Slaanesh (because thats a plan that makes sense). They end up not being able to find Slaanesh, but by doing this they alert the Chaos gods to the existence of these new realms, so Khorne, Nurgle, and Tzeentch show up and basically turn everywhere into a hellscape and generally fuck the place up, while Sigmar locks himself in his room and pouts. After about a millennia of letting the Chaos gods do whatever they want, Sigmar uses new magic to take a bunch of souls of dead heroes and turn them into space marines. And now the Sigmarines are launching attacks on the various realms, beating up Chaos and looking around for magic items they lost in life.
Oh, and the Skaven managed to dig holes under...well, existence apparently...allowing them to pop up into any realm and be the nasty assholes they've always been, only now they also have Rat Marines ...er, "Stormfiends"...and the Great Horned Rat noticed Slaanesh was missing and basically took his place as the fourth Chaos God.
Wait... what??
Quote from: RPGPundit;944677Wait... what??
Yeah, it's an unfortunate mess.
Quote from: RPGPundit;944677Wait... what??
Yeah, I wish that was me being hyperbolic, but that was what GW handed us as the replacement for The Old World. Not too surprising most of the old fans jumped ship.
Don't fix what isn't broken.
WFRP 2nd edition wasn't broken.
Quote from: TrippyHippy;944704Don't fix what isn't broken.
WFRP 2nd edition wasn't broken.
Funnily, I'd say the same thing about 1st edition.
Quote from: Tristram Evans;944709Funnily, I'd say the same thing about 1st edition.
Yeah, i'd be happy with something like v1.75 if you know what i mean.
I was in a really small minority in preferring the v1 magic system to v2, but fully realise it didn't fit the fluff that GW were peddling for years. v2 went a tad too grimdark but stayed just the right side of parody IMO.
I still have 1st edition and I'd agree about the background material to be fair. However, the occasional clunkiness in having, for example, different scales for some stats and the 'naked dwarf' issue are resolved in the 2nd edition with some panache. I also appreciate the much more colourful magic system and indeed the colourful layout of 2nd edition.
A perfect refinement of the game would be to take some of these developments in 2nd edition, and then update the whole Enemy Within Campaign to a similar effect - without actually changing the written material at all.
It's interesting because with the Old World literally destroyed, there isn't really a current Wargame Canon to follow or contradict.
Assuming the license is Warhammer Fantasy IP and not Age of Sigmar IP, I wonder how GW will handcuff C7? By definition, they have to go back in time, because there is no NOW for Warhammer Fantasy.
Are they going to limit them to WFRP1, or WFRP2 or WFRP3?
Did C7 pitch to them a new premise? In TOR, they take the time between Hobbit and LotR. WFRP already kind of did the time leading up to Storm of Chaos, will WFRP4 pick up from WFRP2's post-Storm and lead us up through the End Times?
Time of Sigmar (as in back when he was the Chief of the Teutogens [strike]and possibly a Primarch[/strike])
Time of Magnus the Pious?
Mordheim?
Lots of great options.
Quote from: RPGPundit;944045I'd just like to see that it wasn't complete and utter garbage like 3rd was.
Speaking as someone who loves the Star Wars system that FFG first tried with WH3rd, I HATED 3rd's system, because it did not fit what I think WFRPG should be. 2nd was one of the few, if only, % based systems I like.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;944792Speaking as someone who loves the Star Wars system that FFG first tried with WH3rd, I HATED 3rd's system, because it did not fit what I think WFRPG should be. 2nd was one of the few, if only, % based systems I like.
I concur, its an interesting and well done system that fits heroic fantasy which is the opposite of what anyone wants from a Warhammer rpg. That, and a lot of people were turned off by the format which attempted to appeal to the boardgame crowd, despite it ultimately being completely traditional RPG. If the three volume version without the cards and widgets had been released first, I doubt the game would have gotten the misinformed hatred, but it still was a poor fit for Warhammer fantasy and not quite worthy of its predecessors.
Quote from: Tristram Evans;944796I concur, its an interesting and well done system that fits heroic fantasy which is the opposite of what anyone wants from a Warhammer rpg. That, and a lot of people were turned off by the format which attempted to appeal to the boardgame crowd, despite it ultimately being completely traditional RPG. If the three volume version without the cards and widgets had been released first, I doubt the game would have gotten the misinformed hatred, but it still was a poor fit for Warhammer fantasy and not quite worthy of its predecessors.
It certainly didn't help that the box set, which was the books, the cards, the dice and related widgets, was far FAR less encompassing than the 2nd Edition core book that proceeded it.
I'd like to see WFRP 3e mechanics in book and table form, like the Star Wars rpg books. Keep the dice mechanic, I prefer it to straight up d100.
Career and Talent selections rather than cards or tokens. You could do Dwarf Engineering like SW does Tech Specialists. The 3e game can already be pretty much played this way but not the Hero's Call content, which wan't compiled into tables.
Quote from: AaronBrown99;944801I'd like to see WFRP 3e mechanics in book and table form, like the Star Wars rpg books. Keep the dice mechanic, I prefer it to straight up d100.
Such books were released. Thats the three volumes I mentioned.
Quote from: Tristram Evans;944802Such books were released. Thats the three volumes I mentioned.
I see where you mentioned it...Which volume has the talent and spell info from hero's call?
Quote from: AaronBrown99;944805Where did you mention them? Which volume has the talent and spell info from hero's call?
Post 71. The Talent and Spell info was charted in the Player's Guide: https://www.amazon.com/Warhammer-Fantasy-Roleplay-Players-Guide/dp/B004H9IP1G/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1486601510&sr=8-2&keywords=warhammer+player%27s+guide
That, along with the hardcover gamemaster's guide and Creature Guide contained all the info of the original boxed set and most of the major expansion boxes.
Quote from: Larsdangly;943366Every case like this that comes up firms up my belief that when people start talking about the 4th edition of some game, you should probably ditch most of the crap clogging up your bookshelves and just play the first edition. Can anyone name me a game that is actually better - as a game you play, not a collectable fetish objet - in its 4th edition than in its 1st?
Pretty sure it's the case with Earthdawn and maybe Fuzion, depending on how you count Fuzion "editions":).
Quote from: CRKrueger;943308Topic Creep!
First thing I'd like C7 to do with the license is make all the old stuff available through DTRPG. WFRP1, 2 and 3 if they can.
Sell All the Warhammers!!
After that, if they are doing to do WFRP4 they need to...
1. Make sure Jay Little is nowhere on the continent when they begin.
2. Don't make some kind of New School game with lots of OOC Thematic Story Mechanics (or really any at all)
3. Don't make it a TOR hack.
4. Don't make it a 5e hack.
As far as specific mechanics, more on that later...
As I expected, CRK speaks what I had in mind.
Unlike others, though, I'd want Cubicle7 to use either Mythras, or to come up with a system of their own for the setting, like the systems in Qin and Kuro which fit their settings like gloves;)!
Quote from: Larsdangly;943366Can anyone name me a game that is actually better - as a game you play, not a collectable fetish objet - in its 4th edition than in its 1st?
Sixth edition of Runequest, 4th edition of Pendragon, and 5th edition of Call of Cthulhu I'd say are generally better than their first editions, respectively.
Quote from: Tristram Evans;944814Sixth edition of Runequest, 4th edition of Pendragon, and 5th edition of Call of Cthulhu I'd say are generally better than their first editions, respectively.
Well, if we go for "any edition past the 4th", that game gets too easy;)!
Quote from: RPGPundit;944045I'd just like to see that it wasn't complete and utter garbage like 3rd was.
They did have some very good adventures though,
Witch's Song, the rebooted
Enemy Within campaign,
Edge of Night, those where pretty cool and very close to the 1st edition spirit.
But yeah I'd use Renaissance or LotFP to run them.
And yes, if someone could find an rpg project in Siberia for Jay Little that would be great (and not very nice for Siberians)
Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;944679Yeah, it's an unfortunate mess.
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