Any game can be "Mother May I". Mother May I is a habit of bad GMs, not a systems feature.

Quote from: Krimson;1037049This is why the Amber RPG ended up being a sourcebook for our AD&D 1e campaign. The group thought the book had some nice information, but weren't too keen on "Diceless". Players may not be able to control how the dice rolls, but rolling dice is still literally putting the character's fate in the hands of the players, rather than having it dictated by a narrator.

This is a pathetic anti-Amber argument, God rest Wujcik's soul.

Quote from: Brad;1037417This is a pathetic anti-Amber argument, God rest Wujcik's soul.

What Anti? I bought the books. They got used. He got my money. We didn't use the system. So what? We were already using Amberites in our games years before that game came out anyway.

Quote from: Krimson;1037422What Anti? I bought the books. They got used. He got my money. We didn't use the system. So what? We were already using Amberites in our games years before that game came out anyway.

I dunno, I was super drunk when I responded to that. On topic-> Amber is my favorite 1990s game.

Quote from: Brad;1037546I dunno, I was super drunk when I responded to that. On topic-> Amber is my favorite 1990s game.

That's okay. This is my go to place for drunken posting as well.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1037024So there's a randomizing element to it then?  Does it use cards, because I don't see it use dice.  I must have a defective copy of the game, then.  Missing some pages, obviously.

Chess doesn't have a 'randomizing element' to it and yet it's not a "mother may I" game.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1037848Chess doesn't have a 'randomizing element' to it and yet it's not a "mother may I" game.

Personally, I realized that you could play Amber as a strategy game. Selling it to my players was something completely different. But as I mentioned in a previous game, we used the fluff as source material, and I happily bought Mister Wujcik's books. I'd love to see a game revisit the setting with more traditional mechanics. I would throw money at that.

The problem is that, as wonderful and amazing as it was in other respects, the Amber book did not do the best job of showing really clearly how the mechanics were intended to work.

In Lords of Olympus, I went out of my way to explain it with much more detail so that GMs got that it is definitely NOT a question of "mother may I", at least not any more so than any other regular RPG.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1038006The problem is that, as wonderful and amazing as it was in other respects, the Amber book did not do the best job of showing really clearly how the mechanics were intended to work.

In Lords of Olympus, I went out of my way to explain it with much more detail so that GMs got that it is definitely NOT a question of "mother may I", at least not any more so than any other regular RPG.

My gaming groups never had a problem understanding how Amber worked; in fact, when I described the mechanics for character advancement one of the players stated, "Wow, sounds like you really have to roleplay your ass off." That doesn't necessarily dispute the clarity remark here, but then again some of the games I had no problem understanding when I was 14 are nearly incomprehensible now, and I don't know why that is.

Regardless, yes, Amber is an actual roleplaying game, and the fact that it doesn't use dice in no way undermines that statement. What's stupid is how so many people decry the lack of a "randomization" element, yet fudge die rolls like no tomorrow whenever they play other games. Amber just puts the randomization firmly within the DMs control instead of pretending dice are dictating events.

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;1037408Any game can be "Mother May I". Mother May I is a habit of bad GMs, not a systems feature.

True, but Amber is built around Mother-May-I.  To do anything you have to ask the GM if it's possible, and THEY get to decide Yay or Nay, not a dice roll, not a card flip not anything other than the Viking Hat Arbitrator.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1037848Chess doesn't have a 'randomizing element' to it and yet it's not a "mother may I" game.

Chess is about planning and tactics.  The board never changes, the moves are limited because each piece has a specific purpose.

Amber is not.  Amber has no mechanics other than Asking The Gm for Permission.  Despite the fact that as written, if your opponent has a higher stat that they're using, they win.  No argument.  Just because you have a better stat in something else, doesn't they'll change their tactics or 'arena' just cuz you're better somewhere else.  Unless the GM allows you to.  Amber is Mother-May-I, that's all there is to it.

Don't let your love of the game fool you into thinking it is anything other than that.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1038115Chess is about planning and tactics.  The board never changes, the moves are limited because each piece has a specific purpose.

Amber is not.  Amber has no mechanics other than Asking The Gm for Permission.  

Amber is absolutely about strategy and tactics. The things the attributes do are fixed, and the whole mechanic is about applying the right attribute or power in the right way.

QuoteDon't let your love of the game fool you into thinking it is anything other than that.

I've played Amber for literally four decades now. I've also written my own amber-derived RPG. I'm quite clear on how it actually works. You're the one who's wrong, and I'm betting you've let your dislike of the game fool you into thinking it's just all arbitrary.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1038334Amber is absolutely about strategy and tactics. The things the attributes do are fixed, and the whole mechanic is about applying the right attribute or power in the right way.

Which the GM arbitrates as per their whim, and which each table will be completely different.  Hence "Mother-May-I?"  It's really that simple.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1038334I've played Amber for literally four decades now. I've also written my own amber-derived RPG. I'm quite clear on how it actually works. You're the one who's wrong, and I'm betting you've let your dislike of the game fool you into thinking it's just all arbitrary.

All that tells me is that you have an investment in this game and refuse to even see that there are other interpretations.  I base my evaluation on facts and evidence.  And as long as the only randomizing agent is the GM (who is biased as fuck, due to the fact that they are human.) then it's "Mother May I?"  It seems given the various interactions you've posted that's what you obviously like in your games, to be in ultimate control of the situation and it's outcomes.

I love the Amber book series, but I'm under no illusion that Eric Wujcik had the any grasp on the stories.  Evidence suggests that he didn't.  Namely because Zelazny has outright said that they are written in the form of the 'unreliable narrator', which means that the game is built on a misunderstood lie.  Nothing in the game is 'true' as most settings should be.

Disregard this as you like, but facts are facts, this is not opinion.

Played the heck out of Werewolf: The Apocalypse, and by extension Werewolf: Wild West, Deadlands was played a lot as well. However, our "go to" game was CP 2020 though.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1038485Which the GM arbitrates as per their whim, and which each table will be completely different.  Hence "Mother-May-I?"  It's really that simple.

Only a shitty GM like you.

QuoteAll that tells me is that you have an investment in this game and refuse to even see that there are other interpretations.  I base my evaluation on facts and evidence.

No, you base it on ridiculous libel and delusion.

QuoteAnd as long as the only randomizing agent is the GM (who is biased as fuck, due to the fact that they are human.) then it's "Mother May I?"

By that logic any RPG where the GM has any kind of power at all (which is to say, ALL real RPGs) is "mother may I".

QuoteI love the Amber book series, but I'm under no illusion that Eric Wujcik had the any grasp on the stories.  Evidence suggests that he didn't.  Namely because Zelazny has outright said that they are written in the form of the 'unreliable narrator', which means that the game is built on a misunderstood lie.  Nothing in the game is 'true' as most settings should be.

Disregard this as you like, but facts are facts, this is not opinion.

Well, the FACT is that Roger Zelazny himself disagreed with you. Him and Erick were friends, and Roger not only supported the Amber RPG, he played it.

Also, the notion that you don't think Erick understood the 'unreliable narrator' element suggests to me that you've never actually even read the Amber RPG books.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1038334Amber is absolutely about strategy and tactics. The things the attributes do are fixed, and the whole mechanic is about applying the right attribute or power in the right way.

Which is to say, it's like all other RPGs out there:).

QuoteYou're the one who's wrong, and I'm betting you've let your dislike of the game fool you into thinking it's just all arbitrary.

That wouldn't be exactly the first game where Cupcake misunderstands. All the OSR gamers on this site can attest to it, I think;).
(It's funny how I'm not sure whether to include myself in this list).