Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;930785That doesn't rebut any of my criticisms. It's at a complete right angle. It supports my claim about player investment. You're talking about choreographing a violent, brutal murder in order to horrify and disgust your players. I was talking purely about the mechanics and where they didn't work.

To reiterate:

• The conscience and integrity mechanics are broken so that having high ranks makes it easier to shrug off monstrous acts.
  
• Losing humanity has little effect other than inflicting derangements or banes.
• There's no conflict between maintaining high humanity and gaining a laundry list of supernatural powers (from a transhumanist perspective this is nonsensical).
• Paths of enlightenment and touchstones exist to let players do whatever they were going to do anyway without dinging humanity.

Another vampire game (reviewed here) uses similar concepts but takes a distinctly different approach. It's humanity mechanic is streamlined in comparison and combines what VTX treats as separate but related mechanics. Humanity is a tug-of-war between human traits (equivalent to VTX's humanity, attributes, abilities, backgrounds, merits, touchstones, etc) and vampiric traits (equivalent to VTX's disciplines, devotions, requiems, masquerades, paths of enlightenment, etc). There's a few other things but that's the gist of it.

Oh, just mechanics?

Ok, fine.

1. Integrity is shit from the outset. One of the worst changes ever made to the Storytelling System -- they fucked it up so bad they had to put in a sidebar disclaimer saying "MURDER IS STILL A SIN!" Right...

Don't know where Conscious is from. OWOD maybe? In any case, shit I've heard about the Paths sounds legit. Its players fucking up that's the problem (then again, I don't know OWOD like I know NWOD and I've always straight said it -- when I found out about botches, my god...)

Humanity for VTR is pretty fucking solid. Takes base Morality, makes it more extreme and focuses on "maintenance of" rather than "mirroring" (as Promethean is about).

On the specific point about it being easier, again GMC/CFOD fucked that whole thing up with its resolution mechanic for Integrity (breaking points, godamm...) . NWOD is nice and simple with "if you do x, you roll y" sub-system. There is no "it's easier when holier-than-thou". Like, it isn't. Literally base rules.

2. That's the point. It's Gothic horror at the base. Derangements are BAD NEWS. Like NOBODY wants a Severe level Derangement in any group I've done WOD for (probably because it's me and they *know* I will push them on it). If they're not affecting your game, that's on your GM (my players *volunteer* to take the hits from them and roleplay them, hah!).

One player did attempt to use his character's Derangement as an excuse to torture NPCs (think he picked Sadism) but as soon as I cut away one core element of his character's backstory/motivation he toned it the fuck down. PC was threatened with exile (having not received missions for awhile, both player and character not understanding why, hah hah...) from his assassin order because of all the heinous shit he was doing and the attention it was attracting to the order -- suddenly, it wasn't so fun anymore and the player actually had his character throw a knife at the officer delivering the message (which didn't go down well...) and then essentially freaked out that all the shit he was doing ostensibly to uphold the Vigil was costing him everything he treasured (the order) and was causing him to be ostracized from his Cell

3. What? In what way do you mean? In that there's no mechanical sacrifice, one-or-the-other type deal or something?

4. Yep. As far as I know, Paths were literally built for that kind of bullshit and that is... good? 'Far as I can tell. Again, this is on the GM if the point isn't put across by going down that route (which, if I remember, it's really easy to screw up a Path once taken and then just become a Draugr -- or whatever the OWOD equiv was -- which in itself is just another way the themes are reinforced through rules very strongly).

I'm guessing this Feed game is just doing things in a way you prefer rather than because it actually legitly does things *better*? Legit question.

Quote from: PrometheanVigil;930790Oh, just mechanics?

Ok, fine.

1. Integrity is shit from the outset. One of the worst changes ever made to the Storytelling System -- they fucked it up so bad they had to put in a sidebar disclaimer saying "MURDER IS STILL A SIN!" Right...

Don't know where Conscious is from. OWOD maybe? In any case, shit I've heard about the Paths sounds legit. Its players fucking up that's the problem (then again, I don't know OWOD like I know NWOD and I've always straight said it -- when I found out about botches, my god...)

Humanity for VTR is pretty fucking solid. Takes base Morality, makes it more extreme and focuses on "maintenance of" rather than "mirroring" (as Promethean is about).

On the specific point about it being easier, again GMC/CFOD fucked that whole thing up with its resolution mechanic for Integrity (breaking points, godamm...) . NWOD is nice and simple with "if you do x, you roll y" sub-system. There is no "it's easier when holier-than-thou". Like, it isn't. Literally base rules.

2. That's the point. It's Gothic horror at the base. Derangements are BAD NEWS. Like NOBODY wants a Severe level Derangement in any group I've done WOD for (probably because it's me and they *know* I will push them on it). If they're not affecting your game, that's on your GM (my players *volunteer* to take the hits from them and roleplay them, hah!).

One player did attempt to use his character's Derangement as an excuse to torture NPCs (think he picked Sadism) but as soon as I cut away one core element of his character's backstory/motivation he toned it the fuck down. PC was threatened with exile (having not received missions for awhile, both player and character not understanding why, hah hah...) from his assassin order because of all the heinous shit he was doing and the attention it was attracting to the order -- suddenly, it wasn't so fun anymore and the player actually had his character throw a knife at the officer delivering the message (which didn't go down well...) and then essentially freaked out that all the shit he was doing ostensibly to uphold the Vigil was costing him everything he treasured (the order) and was causing him to be ostracized from his Cell

3. What? In what way do you mean? In that there's no mechanical sacrifice, one-or-the-other type deal or something?

4. Yep. As far as I know, Paths were literally built for that kind of bullshit and that is... good? 'Far as I can tell. Again, this is on the GM if the point isn't put across by going down that route (which, if I remember, it's really easy to screw up a Path once taken and then just become a Draugr -- or whatever the OWOD equiv was -- which in itself is just another way the themes are reinforced through rules very strongly).

I'm guessing this Feed game is just doing things in a way you prefer rather than because it actually legitly does things *better*? Legit question.

"Better" is subjective. From a game design perspective I think it implements and integrates the theme of humanity versus vampirism more elegantly compared to its competitors, but I haven't gotten many second opinions. The rules are free to try if you wish to analyze in more detail.

I'll admit it in public, I like GURPS Vampire: The Masquerade.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;930951I'll admit it in public, I like GURPS Vampire: The Masquerade.

Nothing to be ashamed of. The oWoD 1e GURPS supplements were bitchin' good.

Still in the "other systems" department, now that I've warmed up to PbtA, Urban Shadows is looking snazzy.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;930951I'll admit it in public, I like GURPS Vampire: The Masquerade.

Im waiting for the eventual Rifts Vampire:TM conversion. :eek:

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;930916"Better" is subjective. From a game design perspective I think it implements and integrates the theme of humanity versus vampirism more elegantly compared to its competitors, but I haven't gotten many second opinions. The rules are free to try if you wish to analyze in more detail.

Oh, ok.

I'll check it out at some point, that particular dude you linked to annoys me (can't stand a lot of the RPG nerds online, urrgh...). 'Have my own read-through, a quick skim sometime soon at least I think.

'Appreciate the frank, friendly discussion. Happy we've sorted that out: it's not that NWOD doesn't do personal horror well via its mechanics -- it does an admirable job of it -- it's just its particular style and approach to it isn't the way you'd personally go about it. And that's absolutely valid. To claim otherwise would be madness and worthy of a Severe Derangement!

Quote from: PrometheanVigil;930990Oh, ok.

I'll check it out at some point, that particular dude you linked to annoys me (can't stand a lot of the RPG nerds online, urrgh...). 'Have my own read-through, a quick skim sometime soon at least I think.

'Appreciate the frank, friendly discussion. Happy we've sorted that out: it's not that NWOD doesn't do personal horror well via its mechanics -- it does an admirable job of it -- it's just its particular style and approach to it isn't the way you'd personally go about it. And that's absolutely valid. To claim otherwise would be madness and worthy of a Severe Derangement!

On the topic of White Wolf mechanics, I think the way superpowers are structured is poorly designed. The basic mechanic is that superpowers are divided into linear ranks by theme and each new rank grants a fixed, exception-based power. A few games or subsystems diverged from this but it holds true for most. The problem with this is illustrated by the introduction of wholly new disciplines, combination disciplines/devotions, alternate powers, threnodies, supernatural merits and so forth in later supplements. The basic mechanic is too restrictive and inevitably leads to bloat. IMO this is best avoided. Exception-based powers in general are something I disagree with, unless it's something like fixed applications of freeform skills which sacrifice flexibility for reliability or another benefit.

Quote from: The Butcher;930975now that I've warmed up to PbtA

Spinach and Tenbones, we need an Intervention, ASAP.  I'll have to summon Trentin, we may need the power of Jack Black.

Quote from: PrometheanVigil;930990Oh, ok.

I'll check it out at some point, that particular dude you linked to annoys me (can't stand a lot of the RPG nerds online, urrgh...). 'Have my own read-through, a quick skim sometime soon at least I think.

'Appreciate the frank, friendly discussion. Happy we've sorted that out: it's not that NWOD doesn't do personal horror well via its mechanics -- it does an admirable job of it -- it's just its particular style and approach to it isn't the way you'd personally go about it. And that's absolutely valid. To claim otherwise would be madness and worthy of a Severe Derangement!

On the topic of White Wolf mechanics, I think the way superpowers are structured is poorly designed. The basic mechanic is that superpowers are divided into linear ranks by theme and each new rank grants a fixed, exception-based power. A few games or subsystems diverged from this but it holds true for most. The problem with this is illustrated by the introduction of wholly new disciplines, combination disciplines/devotions, alternate powers, threnodies, supernatural merits and so forth in later supplements. The basic mechanic is too restrictive and inevitably leads to bloat. IMO this is best avoided. Exception-based powers in general are something I disagree with, unless it's something like fixed applications of freeform skills which sacrifice flexibility for reliability or another benefit.

EDIT: on the topic of dualities, CofD is reintroducing nature/demeanor and making it a cornerstone of every splat. A while ago I entertained the idea of converting all the splats but gave up when I couldn't figure out a way to differentiate werewolves and mages from vampire strains. The double-edged addiction metaphor fits both of them like gloves.

Maybe Wraith is the exception. If we treat it as a metaphor for moving on after a traumatic event versus staying vainly attached to the past (what is a simple word for that conflict? the seven stages of grief?), then it would be the logical opposite. Human traits would become Wraith traits from the onset and losing them would represent moving forward.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;930951I'll admit it in public, I like GURPS Vampire: The Masquerade.

Its good you feel bad about it. Now that you admit you have a problem, the healing can begin.

Quote from: CRKrueger;931012Spinach and Tenbones, we need an Intervention, ASAP.  I'll have to summon Trentin, we may need the power of Jack Black.

Do you dislike the Reaction Table so badly that a game based on it causes such alert;)?

Quote from: AsenRG;931636Do you dislike the Reaction Table so badly that a game based on it causes such alert;)?

No, we just need to keep roleplayers playing actual roleplaying games.

Quote from: CRKrueger;931643No, we just need to keep roleplayers playing actual roleplaying games.

PbtA is an actual roleplaying game, man, even if you don't like it!
It's based on the Reaction Table of old D&D, after all:p!
Granted, you have four kinds of Charisma, and you roll to see how much the Universe likes you at that specific moment, then you keep negotiating from there, but that's still actual roleplaying;)!

Quote from: CRKrueger;931012Spinach and Tenbones, we need an Intervention, ASAP.  I'll have to summon Trentin, we may need the power of Jack Black.

Two words: Modiphius Conan. Pot, kettle, black.

Now I really want to run a GURPS Vampire: The Masquerade game using the old 3e rules.