Anarchs were the assumed default PCs; the By Night series had a few great sandboxes (and quite a few stinkers); the Diablerie adventures were dungeon crawls where the "boss" Methuselah was also the treasure, and by Jove A World of Darkness 1e was gloriously gonzo. A Brujah Methuselah ran the Mafia (like, all of it) and King Hussein of Jordan had a vague idea that the world was run by monsters.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;916753Sadly those metaphors don't work in today's so-called "enlightened" society where only a lunatic fringe consider those things anathema.

Today's "enlightened" society?

Take it up with the showrunners of True Blood (HBO, 2008-2014), you bitchy little outrage fetishist.

Quote from: daniel_ream;916892Today's "enlightened" society?

Take it up with the showrunners of True Blood (HBO, 2008-2014), you bitchy little outrage fetishist.

True Blood used Vampirism as a metaphor for being gay only in the context of living with secrets and the struggle to be open about who you are. It did NOT link the predatory nature of Vampirism (which was the fucking point of Box's post, if you bothered to spend more than a second on it) to its LGBT context, in the classic Vampires=homosexuals dynamic of "Vampires preying on impressionable youth and turning them gay." In fact, all of the classic vampire metaphors you mentioned (sex/HIV/gay) were about societal out-groups (HIV positive horny gay people) preying on vulnerable populations and infecting them with their life-style or disease. Which, shockingly, is kind of an outrageously offensive dynamic and one that True Blood (and Being Human, another major modern show about vampirism) deliberately avoided and were actually responding to. True Blood also focused heavily on addiction, with the Vampire blood plotline dominating the later seasons.

Can we stop arguing about vampire metaphors and get back on topic? Let's talk about Vampire: The Masquerade in its early days before the Goths and Punks ruined it (well, they were always there from the start, but the inmates didn't start running the asylum until Revised).

I remember making up characters and then looking at each other. "Okay, we're vampires. So what do we do?"

Being so used to games where you either explore dungeons, or go on quests or get hired by people to do jobs or solving paranornal mysteries, Vampire was somewhat baffling.

Strangely, Rifts was the same thing. Neat setting, but it's unclear what to do with it in terms of adventures.

Quote from: JeremyR;916931I remember making up characters and then looking at each other. "Okay, we're vampires. So what do we do?"

Being so used to games where you either explore dungeons, or go on quests or get hired by people to do jobs or solving paranornal mysteries, Vampire was somewhat baffling.

Strangely, Rifts was the same thing. Neat setting, but it's unclear what to do with it in terms of adventures.

I have the solution for your problem in just three words: Trenchcoats and Katanas.

An action game where the players have the potential to be "Friendly Neighborhood Vampires" is a load of fun. Throw in some political intrigue and it becomes perfect.

Don't let any stuck-up pretentious Goths or Punks tell you otherwise. Despite what those guyliner-wearing wristcutters may say, there is no "wrong way" to play VTM so long as everyone's having fun. Why play "Some Other Game" when you can just modify VTM to fit your liking?

Remember that Black Sabbath, Creedence Clearwater Revival, and Iron Maiden are far superior to Bauhaus, Sisters of Mercy, and The Cure.

Classic Rock & Heavy Metal>Punk Rock & Gothic Rock

Quote from: Doc Sammy;916944Remember that Black Sabbath, Creedence Clearwater Revival, and Iron Maiden are far superior to Bauhaus, Sisters of Mercy, and The Cure.

Some people like ALL of those, y'know?

Maybe it was the art, but I definitely remember getting a cyberpunk vibe off Vampire when I was first reading it. Or at least cyberpunk as it was being presented in games. Not in the tech of course...
Did the original corebook right off have that thing where everyone in the credits got nicknames? or did that come later?

Quote from: Doc Sammy;916944Remember that Black Sabbath, Creedence Clearwater Revival, and Iron Maiden are far superior to Bauhaus, Sisters of Mercy, and The Cure.

Did you just sneak Creedence Clearwater Revival between Black Sabbath and Iron Maiden?

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;916960Did you just sneak Creedence Clearwater Revival between Black Sabbath and Iron Maiden?

Yes, I did. I love all three of those bands.

Simlasa, I'm not sure if everyone had nicknames in the credits of the 1e corebook, but I think they did. I can check it to make sure. I own 1e on hard copy.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;916960Did you just sneak Creedence Clearwater Revival between Black Sabbath and Iron Maiden?

Chronologically, he's right. Stylistically? Kind of hard to trace a "bloodline" — I'd say Sabbath definitely influenced Maiden, but Creedence branches off from the great tree of rock'n'roll/blues/country at a different point from Sabbath.

Quote from: The Butcher;916993Chronologically, he's right. Stylistically? Kind of hard to trace a "bloodline" — I'd say Sabbath definitely influenced Maiden, but Creedence branches off from the great tree of rock'n'roll/blues/country at a different point from Sabbath.

Stylistically CCR branches off at a different point than Sabbath, but all three are better than the pretentious cacophony that is punk rock.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;916603Now, I didn't get into White Wolf until 2010, during my junior year of high school. But I always preferred the much-derided "Trenchcoats and Katanas" playstyle over the whiny and pretentious "Personal Horror" style from the moment I first read Vampire: The Requiem and later, Vampire: The Masquerade. But as I grew older, I started to appreciate the political angle as well. So for me, the perfect Vampire game would have little to no metaplot whatsoever, and be an even blend of katanas and politics.

Based on what I heard from other people in my area who were there in the 90s, most of the 1e and early 2e Masquerade games were played this way, at least in my area. Personal Horror and heavy metaplots didn't become the dominating norm until Revised, which amped up the metaplot and had Justin Achilli ramming personal horror down everyone's throats and shaming anyone who played differently from the party line.

The White Wolf fandom has never recovered since. And I feel as if Martin Ericsson and his "One World of Darkness" is only going to make things worse.

The focus on the Old World is what's going to kill it. They need to strip it and focus on New World. Works a lot better as a setting these days. Old World is far better when presented in computer games or books (Giovanni Chronicles, anyone?).

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;916595In this, indie rpg Feed succeeded where VtM failed. It was a pretty simple yet vital difference: humanity as a descriptor of traits rather than a trait of its own and rewarding players for losing it. As characters become more vampiric, vampire traits replace human traits (e.g. your girlfriend dumps you and you replace her with a renfield) and it becomes progressively more difficult to engage in normal life. (Vampirism is explicitly an addiction metaphor.) The problem is that the players need to care about resisting their addiction or it will degenerate into fantasy drug lords.

There are a number of vampire clones already. Off the top of my head: Undying, Vampire City, Urban Shadows, Bloodsucker... What makes another stand out?

"fantasy drug lords"

Hah hah, awesome!

Quote from: IskandarKebab;916608Ironically enough, this is a perfect thing to slot into a trenchcoat and katanas style game. Players want to be the heroes, but in order to face the challenges posed to them they are forced to increasingly take on villainous traits. Great way to play into the real issues faced by anti-cartel forces, for example.

To defeat the beast, one must become the beast and all that good stuff. Seriously, the drug wars in Mexico are a fucking mess. And when you have a newer one calling themselves the Knights Templar, jesus fucking weeps...

Quote from: daniel_ream;916615Unless it's about sex.

Or HIV.

Or being gay.

Or rape.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;916649Well, I personally loved Street Fighter: The Storytelling Game, and I think most of the hatred it gets nowadays comes from the stuck-up Goths and Punks who only play Personal Horror games and believe everything must be dark and serious all the fucking time. The kind of assholes who like metaplot railroading their games (and telling other people who don't like metaplot to play "Some Other Game"), who voluntarily listen to shitty bands like Sisters of Mercy, Bauhaus, and Type O Negative, and hold onto the words of Justin Achilli and Martin Ericsson as if they were holy canon. The kind of snobs who want the World of Darkness to be a World of Pointless Nihilism. Those kind of snobs.

(Rant Over)

Seriously, World of Darkness is a great setting when you chop out the metaplot and the themes of personal horror. Eat the chicken and throw away the bone, so to speak. That's why I prefer 1e and 2e over Revised.

And I don't think you are a snob, I just wanted to get that rant off my chest.

Type O Negative is perfect. If ever there was a quintessential 90's/early 2000s Goth band, it'd be them. Life Is Killing Me is insane and October Rust is very stadium -- their best two albums.

Quote from: Simlasa;916650I was listening to Sisters of Mercy the other day (I like 'em) and my friend came in and asked, "What the fuck is that? Some crappy David Bowie cover band?"... and that right there ruined it. Kind of hilarious... but also like when same friend pointed out that all tropical fruit has a vomit-like sub-flavor.

More on topic: When people say 2e Vampire is that the same as NWoD?

I bought the game when it first came out. I liked the sound of it, but it quickly got a funky reputation here locally because of the antics of some of its fans.

You're very impressionable, hah hah.

Said while drinking from a Tropicana Mango Peach Papaya carton.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;916745Can't we all agree on this simple thing?

World of Darkness is proof that Goths ruin everything (even things that start out as awesome) and that punk rock sucks.

Dude, Goth is the reason OWOD DIDN'T suck. Fantasy during the 90s was fucking all over place, as was sci-fi and horror. That aesthetic and sensibility influenced a whole bunch of stuff, say, like Fallout with its bleak tone and gothic architecture and character design and even certain enviromemts like Necropolis and the Cathedral. Tiberian Sun benefitted too with an awesome post-apocolyptic lite near-future world with religious/spiritual/existential undertones  and a seriously incredible industrial/ambient/rock soundtrack. That's just computer games...

Quote from: Necrozius;916750I vehemently disagree. It was the Anime and comic book fans who ruined WoD.

Yeah, agreed. That shit made its way undercover into NWOD, particularly in Mage and Changeling (and arguably Geist and Promethean, though to a far lesser degree).

Quote from: Doc Sammy;916760First off, I'm not a comic book fan. I prefer anime over that Marvel and DC garbage any day of the week.

Second, I disagree. The anime and comic book stuff makes WoD fun instead of pretentious and wangsty.

Trenchcoats and Katanas mixed with politics is so much more fun than whiny and wangsty Personal Horror games.

At least that's how I see it. So let's just agree to disagree, shall we?

Vertigo, man. Its all about Vertigo. That and Dark Horse. Supers might not appeal to you but its the reason katanas and trenchcoats are the go-to for you (and the reason it became a thing to the previous generation of RPGers.

And dude, there's no such thing as agree to disagree. Switzserland is not a stance.

Quote from: IskandarKebab;916762I agree with you here, and the addiction angle is the primary way "bad guy vampire" stories seem to take today. Plus, it's already well established as the backdrop for being a ghoul in VTM fiction. What a monster represents has to change over time to remain relevant (Zombies as American culture's mindless herd following of norms------> Zombies as more of a metaphor for social isolation and disconnection in modern society). While it would be wrong to retroactively try to apply this to older vampire stories, I do think modern games should adapt to the times to remain relevant. What kind of holds it back, on the TTRPG side, is the general older age of RPG designers and the tendency for games to try and replicate older games. Seguing into:



Preach. Probably my biggest critique of the OSR style of game is a tendency to take old mechanisms, patch them and slap a coat on paint on them, without thinking about why those mechanisms were used, what were their roots and how they could be improved. Major anathema: we use dice because that was the available RNG at the time. Any modern game designer should spend at least a minute or two asking "do I need dice here", even just for shits and giggles. For example, Malifaux's use of cards for its RNG greatly speeds up gameplay.

Don't Retroclone a game without going through it bit by bit like you were making a completely new game and asking "why does this rule exist, does it need to exist, and if yes, how can it be better". The OWOD had a fundamentally broken combat system where 40 children with sticks were the equivalent of a werewolf because a combat dice was a combat dice. At the time, it was okay because the system was new and people didn't plan out all the emergent consequences. Replicating it is inexcusable.

A good example of the proper mindset, in my view, is what the new Doom did. The designers went into it wanting to replicating the core pillars of the old game (high speed combat, horror aesthetics combined with blood and metal to create deliberately silly atmosphere) while adapting to modern norms (shift of shooter gameplay from primarily a puzzle based system "take these resources and complete the level under those limitations", with the primary skill being dodging in corridor heavy level design, to skill based gameplay centered around accurate shooting while moving at a high pace in large arena based levels). It is a "retroclone" in a lot of ways, but it took advantage of modern developments to improve the old game while preserving its feel. The same goes for the current trend of 8 and 16 bit games. While they keep the feel of old games, they also applied a modern level of usability, player interface, and inventory management.

VTR has a very Millenial vs Gen X vs Baby Boomer feel to it: Neonates vs Ancillae vs Elders. You can totally get their power and resources but it feels so out of reach and so far away. And so much more is expected of you than it ever was for them. Its very relevant.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;916765The strange thing is that I was drawn to WoD because of its modern setting, but now I prefer Dark Ages over the Modern Nights due to the metaplot being less intrusive and that Dark Ages fans tend to be less hung up on metaplot and personal horror as a rule.

Dark Ages is pretty cool. I'm currently hosting a Hunter: The Vigil game set during the Third Crusade.

Quote from: IskandarKebab;916774Dark Ages also kind of works better logic wise these days. I've noticed that a lot of the city politics in WoD are really dependent on the high level of gang violence in the 1990s. You could have the Sabbat chucking waves of people at Cammy interests in the streets at night, and it wouldn't break the suspension of disbelief that it wasn't raising alarms. While gang violence has hardly disappeared (see Chicago), you don't exactly have low scale war for street corners anymore either.

Chiraq.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;916930Can we stop arguing about vampire metaphors and get back on topic? Let's talk about Vampire: The Masquerade in its early days before the Goths and Punks ruined it (well, they were always there from the start, but the inmates didn't start running the asylum until Revised).

Dude, what is your problem with Goths and Punks. Like, that is what World of Darkness is.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;916944I have the solution for your problem in just three words: Trenchcoats and Katanas.

An action game where the players have the potential to be "Friendly Neighborhood Vampires" is a load of fun. Throw in some political intrigue and it becomes perfect.

Don't let any stuck-up pretentious Goths or Punks tell you otherwise. Despite what those guyliner-wearing wristcutters may say, there is no "wrong way" to play VTM so long as everyone's having fun. Why play "Some Other Game" when you can just modify VTM to fit your liking?

Remember that Black Sabbath, Creedence Clearwater Revival, and Iron Maiden are far superior to Bauhaus, Sisters of Mercy, and The Cure.

Classic Rock & Heavy Metal>Punk Rock & Gothic Rock

This is like a personal war for you?

Classic Rock is Nirvana and Alice in Chains and R.E.M and Green Day these days dude. If you're talking about Vintage Rock (ACDC, Led Zepp, Guns & Roses, Aerosmith etc...), they really don't even figure into the aesthetic or style of even OWOD. Now its just your personal tastes, hah hah.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;917017Stylistically CCR branches off at a different point than Sabbath, but all three are better than the pretentious cacophony that is punk rock.

NWOD is so nu-metal its off the charts. A healthy mix of gothic metal/hardcore punk/ambient/industrial in there too.

Let's see...

Primer 55
Motograter
Fuel
Type O Negative
Soil
Downthesun
Allele
Flaw
40 Below Summer
Crossfade
Puddle of Mudd
Alter Bridge
Lacuna Coil
Sevendust
Snot
Disturbed
U.P.O
Machine Head
Life of Agony (another 90s throwback!)
Arch Enemy
Dry Kill Logic
Otep
Spineshank
Insomnium
Staind
Entwine
Evanescene
Opeth (90s!)
Tiamat (90's again)
Kidneythieves
Oceanwake
Collide

And more. All VERY NWOD.

Quote from: PrometheanVigil;917037The focus on the Old World is what's going to kill it. They need to strip it and focus on New World. Works a lot better as a setting these days. Old World is far better when presented in computer games or books (Giovanni Chronicles, anyone?).



"fantasy drug lords"

Hah hah, awesome!



To defeat the beast, one must become the beast and all that good stuff. Seriously, the drug wars in Mexico are a fucking mess. And when you have a newer one calling themselves the Knights Templar, jesus fucking weeps...



Or rape.



Type O Negative is perfect. If ever there was a quintessential 90's/early 2000s Goth band, it'd be them. Life Is Killing Me is insane and October Rust is very stadium -- their best two albums.



You're very impressionable, hah hah.

Said while drinking from a Tropicana Mango Peach Papaya carton.



Dude, Goth is the reason OWOD DIDN'T suck. Fantasy during the 90s was fucking all over place, as was sci-fi and horror. That aesthetic and sensibility influenced a whole bunch of stuff, say, like Fallout with its bleak tone and gothic architecture and character design and even certain enviromemts like Necropolis and the Cathedral. Tiberian Sun benefitted too with an awesome post-apocolyptic lite near-future world with religious/spiritual/existential undertones  and a seriously incredible industrial/ambient/rock soundtrack. That's just computer games...



Yeah, agreed. That shit made its way undercover into NWOD, particularly in Mage and Changeling (and arguably Geist and Promethean, though to a far lesser degree).



Vertigo, man. Its all about Vertigo. That and Dark Horse. Supers might not appeal to you but its the reason katanas and trenchcoats are the go-to for you (and the reason it became a thing to the previous generation of RPGers.

And dude, there's no such thing as agree to disagree. Switzserland is not a stance.



VTR has a very Millenial vs Gen X vs Baby Boomer feel to it: Neonates vs Ancillae vs Elders. You can totally get their power and resources but it feels so out of reach and so far away. And so much more is expected of you than it ever was for them. Its very relevant.



Dark Ages is pretty cool. I'm currently hosting a Hunter: The Vigil game set during the Third Crusade.



Chiraq.



Dude, what is your problem with Goths and Punks. Like, that is what World of Darkness is.



This is like a personal war for you?

Classic Rock is Nirvana and Alice in Chains and R.E.M and Green Day these days dude. If you're talking about Vintage Rock (ACDC, Led Zepp, Guns & Roses, Aerosmith etc...), they really don't even figure into the aesthetic or style of even OWOD. Now its just your personal tastes, hah hah.



NWOD is so nu-metal its off the charts. A healthy mix of gothic metal/hardcore punk/ambient/industrial in there too.

Let's see...

Primer 55
Motograter
Fuel
Type O Negative
Soil
Downthesun
Allele
Flaw
40 Below Summer
Crossfade
Puddle of Mudd
Alter Bridge
Lacuna Coil
Sevendust
Snot
Disturbed
U.P.O
Machine Head
Life of Agony (another 90s throwback!)
Arch Enemy
Dry Kill Logic
Otep
Spineshank
Insomnium
Staind
Entwine
Evanescene
Opeth (90s!)
Tiamat (90's again)
Kidneythieves
Oceanwake
Collide

And more. All VERY NWOD.

I'm just going to agree to disagree with you and enjoy my anti-Gothic/anti-Punk homebrewed NWOD that is heavily influenced by anime and vintage rock.

I like CCR and hate Type O Negative, you seem to be the opposite. Different strokes for different folks, I guess?

Though I do agree with you on one thing. White Wolf should focus more on NWOD and just let OWOD go.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;916230What was playing Vampire: The Masquerade like in the earliest days of the game?

LARPS, lots of LARPS. At cons, there were few V:tM games, but huge live events. That was my primary involvement with White Wolf. As for tRPGs, we played lots of Werewolf as that setting and concept was a better fit for our crew.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;917038Though I do agree with you on one thing. White Wolf should focus more on NWOD and just let OWOD go.

The NWOD makes more sense creative direction wise, but OWOD just makes far more business sense. Unfortunately, I don't think any major RPG companies are going to be able to let the way their settings were in the 1990s go. Even with the rise of nerd culture, TTRPGs are never going to return to the popularity they had back then. As a hobby, it's just far too time consuming and reliant on 5-6 human beings somehow having schedules in sync. If you are looking to make money off of a TTRPG, you have two options 1- the small market of current players, 2- the much larger market of lapsed players. Its why Shadowrun Returns happens metaplot wise around 1995-1997, IIRC. You're not going to grab attention with the Strix, but the Bujah and Gangrel nostalgia factors are going to get eyeballs on your product and get it moving.