Quote from: CRKrueger;925928Sounds like the Jehovah's Witnesses I know.

My parents weren't Jehovah's Witnesses though.

Oddly enough, despite their objections to Halloween costumes and Christmas trees, they had no problem with D&D or rock music. In fact, my dad was the one who introduced me to D&D and RPG's in general. I guess it was because they were Gen X'ers who were in high school at the very height of the Satanic Panic, so they knew that the crusades against RPG's and Rock & Roll were largely bullshit even by conservative Christian standards.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;925925I grew up in a really Puritanical part of America (my parents not only banned Halloween, but even Christmas and Easter as well for having pagan roots), and Jack Chick sort of embodies the very values I grew to despise. So, he makes for a very compelling and convenient villain for me, at least on a personal level.

It's sort of a cathartic thing, really.

See I don't find it "bad". I find it interesting, in a personal way, that you project this experience onto the game simply because it uses the language and iconography that you've conditioned yourself to reflexively despise - but only in a surface manner.

As a small litmus test - if you changed the metaplot from the Biblical Caine to being the progenitor of vampires, and make it Hatshepsut of Egypt or some other figure from the past and does it somehow make the metaplot "better" for you?

The fact that you point out all these holidays that seemingly oppresses you with their unobserved Pagan roots, I say - why go for convenient? Why not just take it head on and make it what you *want* it to be vs. this caricature-seeming thing of Jack Chick and Co. which only further defines the concept of your game only by the very things you hate?

You're trading one metaplot for a sillier version from my perspective. But I concede, if that's your "thing" - rock on with your bad self on it.

Quote from: tenbones;925949See I don't find it "bad". I find it interesting, in a personal way, that you project this experience onto the game simply because it uses the language and iconography that you've conditioned yourself to reflexively despise - but only in a surface manner.

As a small litmus test - if you changed the metaplot from the Biblical Caine to being the progenitor of vampires, and make it Hatshepsut of Egypt or some other figure from the past and does it somehow make the metaplot "better" for you?

The fact that you point out all these holidays that seemingly oppresses you with their unobserved Pagan roots, I say - why go for convenient? Why not just take it head on and make it what you *want* it to be vs. this caricature-seeming thing of Jack Chick and Co. which only further defines the concept of your game only by the very things you hate?

You're trading one metaplot for a sillier version from my perspective. But I concede, if that's your "thing" - rock on with your bad self on it.

I prefer to keep the progenitor of vampires ambiguous in my games. The Caine myth was a popular idea among medieval Kindred and it persists in the Sabbat, but it's not hard fact like in the canon.

Jack Chick would make a good mid-level Werewolf villain in my opinion. He's the sort of guy you love to hate. Even most Christians despise him and for good reason. He's a maniacal Neo-Puritan who makes their religion look bad.

I love Halloween, it's a fun holiday and totally secular despite what the Neo-Puritans and other fundies may say. I don't celebrate Christmas, being a Roman polytheist and all that, but I have incorporated some minor Christmas elements into my Saturnalia celebrations such as gift-giving (I usually try to buy some things for my loved ones and I do enjoy a nice hard cider on a cold December afternoon).

Quote from: Doc Sammy;925956I prefer to keep the progenitor of vampires ambiguous in my games. The Caine myth was a popular idea among medieval Kindred and it persists in the Sabbat, but it's not hard fact like in the canon.

This is precisely why I say to use canon as a tool. Make it as useful as possible to sculpt what you're wanting. You'll note the Caine myth can be seen in many different ways with an easy squint. The very nature of Kindred throws the *entire* notion of the Bible-as-understood into question. These are the fun things to play with assuming you care at all. In my game I even alluded to the progenitor-of-vampires being the Devourer Wyrm (Eater of Souls) from Werewolf. Which allowed for all kinds of crazy conspiracies which is yet more great fodder for political-horror games I tend to run.

While keeping the progenitor of vampires ambiguous is fine, at a certain point if I were playing a modern vampire - I'd be asking that question. Seems kind of a natural thing to question right? Especially if you're being talked down to and forced figuratively/literally into a social order of immortal assholes. I'd wanna know who the top-asshole was, or at the very least who started this shitshow?

But again, maybe it's just the games I run.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;925956Jack Chick would make a good mid-level Werewolf villain in my opinion. He's the sort of guy you love to hate. Even most Christians despise him and for good reason. He's a maniacal Neo-Puritan who makes their religion look bad.

I confess, I'm tickled with the idea of making Jack Chick a Hunter. It's a damn fine idea all by itself. Consider this idea SWIPED.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;925925I grew up in a really Puritanical part of America (my parents not only banned Halloween, but even Christmas and Easter as well for having pagan roots), and Jack Chick sort of embodies the very values I grew to despise. So, he makes for a very compelling and convenient villain for me, at least on a personal level.

It's sort of a cathartic thing, really.

As a guy who had a fruity catholic mother I rather under stand the depths of the stupidity(I don't think there where any of the ''off brand'' churches around here i wasn't in at one time or other), though i had those holidays as my dad is a sane man raised Lutheran.

Quote from: CRKrueger;925928Sounds like the Jehovah's Witnesses I know.

All the one's I know are pretty sane the one's that come to the door in the afternoon how ever.........

The Storyteller when I got to play was an awesome player and a goofball at running games. So it was pretty awesome with him running the game. After I outwitted him and staked and drained Crowley I was untouchable, my gangrel basically commanding an army of useful idiots from my fortress in Canada. Ludicrous and over the top, but it was memorable. When he played he was lucky to find a dog to feed on. Different play styles, I guess.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;925956I prefer to keep the progenitor of vampires ambiguous in my games. The Caine myth was a popular idea among medieval Kindred and it persists in the Sabbat, but it's not hard fact like in the canon.

Quote from: tenbones;925989This is precisely why I say to use canon as a tool. Make it as useful as possible to sculpt what you're wanting. You'll note the Caine myth can be seen in many different ways with an easy squint. The very nature of Kindred throws the *entire* notion of the Bible-as-understood into question. These are the fun things to play with assuming you care at all. In my game I even alluded to the progenitor-of-vampires being the Devourer Wyrm (Eater of Souls) from Werewolf. Which allowed for all kinds of crazy conspiracies which is yet more great fodder for political-horror games I tend to run.

Thats what I was alluding to in my previous post.

According to cannon in the books themselves no one has any idea what really happened. Accounts from any given faction can and will conflict with anothers and they often totally conflict with other races in WOD. The books themselves even mention this fact.

Anybody remember Chicago by Night?

Looks like the Kindred claimed Jack Chick

http://www.latimes.com/local/obituaries/la-me-ln-jack-chick-obituary-20161024-snap-story.html

Quote from: Doc Sammy;927059Anybody remember Chicago by Night?

I ran Under A Blood Red Moon for Werewolf so I used all the Chicago WoD stuff I had quite a bit including that book.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;927059Anybody remember Chicago by Night?

How could anyone forget... great book, killer sandbox.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;927059Anybody remember Chicago by Night?

I DID just talk about it a few posts up so...yes?

Chicago was the best setting for Vampire, although Milwaukee was also good too. Much better than any of the Revised settings (New York, Mexico City, Cairo) which were too full of metaplot and Justin Achilli's unique brand of fail to be enjoyable.

First Edition and early Second Edition Vampire was the best, Revised was the worst (although the upcoming Fifth Edition looks like it's going to claim Revised's crown of fail)

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;916230What was playing Vampire: The Masquerade like in the earliest days of the game?

The Rocky Horror Picture Show and The Returned mixed together.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;925925I grew up in a really Puritanical part of America (my parents not only banned Halloween, but even Christmas and Easter as well for having pagan roots), and Jack Chick sort of embodies the very values I grew to despise. So, he makes for a very compelling and convenient villain for me, at least on a personal level.

It's sort of a cathartic thing, really.

WTF? Christians forbidding Christmas and Easter?
I thought I've seen it all...

Quote from: Doc Sammy;925937My parents weren't Jehovah's Witnesses though.

Oddly enough, despite their objections to Halloween costumes and Christmas trees, they had no problem with D&D or rock music. In fact, my dad was the one who introduced me to D&D and RPG's in general. I guess it was because they were Gen X'ers who were in high school at the very height of the Satanic Panic, so they knew that the crusades against RPG's and Rock & Roll were largely bullshit even by conservative Christian standards.

If only more conservative Christians were like your parents in that respect:)!

Quote from: Doc Sammy;925956Jack Chick would make a good mid-level Werewolf villain in my opinion. He's the sort of guy you love to hate. Even most Christians despise him and for good reason. He's a maniacal Neo-Puritan who makes their religion look bad.

Correction, most Christians have no idea who the guy was;).


And to me V:tM metaplot was just "Caine, the creator of vampires, has been a serial killer ever since that first act, and you can imagine what the interval between his murders is right now"!