Quote from: Doc Sammy;922512So, this thread has made me realize that maybe I've been too hard on Goths and Punks overall, especially considering the fact that all my experiences with them were with people like Darren MacLerran and a bunch of washed-up thirty-and-forty-something Gen X burnouts I had LARP'ed with in the early 2010's when I was in high school.

I don't know them personally. Only from their actions online. Those interactions lead me to suspect they're the kinds of people that would not be well received by those I grew up with. They'd probably have gotten run off. But again, it's pure speculation on my part.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;922512I'm actually kind of inspired to run a Vampire: The Masquerade game using only the First Edition core rulebook with that actual Gothic-Punk aesthetic. I may even make it a period piece set in the 80's or 90's. We would not recognize the metaplot or any other Revised Edition bullshit and even though the game may be Gothic-Punk, don't expect any "woe is me" personal horror either. Granted, I won't go full Trenchcoats & Katanas either, but instead find a suitable and decent middle ground between the two play styles.

Do yourself a favor. Just run the game without any aesthetic at all. Let people make characters from whatever walk of life they wanna be from. And give them vampirism. What do they do? Filter all the fluff into the game slowly as you see fit. Don't worry about "Goth aesthetics" - simply because as a Vampire, you got bigger issues to deal with. Like *eating* the Goth sitting there in the club pretending to be what you are - or eating the drunk athletic guy with all the MMA-swag who might actually be able to kick your ass. Aesthetics are for those PC's that give a shit to care (which has it's own issues).

If your goal is to create this fantasy-Goth Vampire game, then ignore everything I just said.

Quote from: PrometheanVigil;922532You sly mutha. Hah hah!

In fact, where's my New Jack Swing playlist at...? *goes to play it on shuffle*



Halle-fucking-lujah!

Glad we could come to peace. Would you be interested in joining my retro-throwback VTM play-by-post game? We'll probably use the 1e Core Rulebook. Or a homebrew rules conversion using Big Eyes Small Mouth 1e, depending on what the players overall prefer.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;922399Really, it's funny how Vampire Clans are basically High School Cliques.

That's how I've run them. The dead can be petty and insecure. Especially the young ones.  

The PCs are those kids who can actually mix with other cliques.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;922550Glad we could come to peace.

No peace after you insulted Type O Negative!! Death to Doc Sammy!! Death and black nail polish!! No hot goth chicks 4u!!

Wolf Moon (Zoanthropic Paranoia) is one of my favorite songs.

For a play-by-post, I think BESM would absolutely rock. Count me in for both your W:tA and V:tM games.

Quote from: Snowman0147;922485TrippyHippy welcome to my ignore list as you add nothing to any conversation you had ever been in.

Thanks for pointing out that facility exists on this site, and enjoy of course.

Quote from: tenbones;922519And what does Revised circa 1998 have to do with V20 as it pertains the mechanics vs. the Fluff of the game? Fluff change? Not much. Mechanics change? Nothing they couldn't put into a pamphlet. V20 consolidated everything. But if you wanna have an argument that it's somehow worthy of your brand of the word "Edition" - feel free to argue. To me it's rhetorical semantics.

Do you think NWoD is a new edition because they created the God Machine rules? They did exactly what I'm suggesting - they created a free PDF to outline the new rules. And yes for various reasons, not the least of which were financial - they repackaged everything into a brand series of books that covered everything they already bought with the pamphlet rules cooked in.

New edition? Revision? Upgrade? Evolution? "Who cares?" says I.

I care about the game. This point of debate is a silly sideshow, and I'm not quite sure what the point being made is? You want to call it a "New Edition"? I'll call it "New Kids on the Block20". See? Both happy.

Perfectly happy, although it goes back to the original argument that Vampire: TM had been "cancelled".

By way of a comparison, that when Call of Cthulhu had a 20th Edition, they then released a 6th Edition a few years later that was literally a reprint of the 20th Anniversary edition. They, obviously, released supplements too at a slow but steady rate and also had their brand licensed out to other third parties.

New Revision? Upgrade? Evolution? "Who cares" says I too. But there really is no difference in most game companies out there in terms of keeping games alive - and the only point I am making was that Vampire: TM never died.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;922595Perfectly happy, although it goes back to the original argument that Vampire: TM had been "cancelled".

It's not an argument.  It's a simple statement of fact.  Vampire:the Masquerade was discontinued by White Wolf in 2004.  It was cancelled.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;922595By way of a comparison, that when Call of Cthulhu had a 20th Edition, they then released a 6th Edition a few years later that was literally a reprint of the 20th Anniversary edition. They, obviously, released supplements too at a slow but steady rate and also had their brand licensed out to other third parties.

To my knowledge, Call of Cthulhu was never discontinued by Chaosium.  Vampire:the Masquerade was discontinued by White Wolf.  We can use discontinued instead of cancelled if it makes you feel better but there's no real difference.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;922595New Revision? Upgrade? Evolution? "Who cares" says I too. But there really is no difference in most game companies out there in terms of keeping games alive - and the only point I am making was that Vampire: TM never died.

White Wolf discontinuing it along with the other oWoD lines is a pretty obvious difference.  Discontinued=dead.  I don't know why you are so emotionally invested in pretending otherwise.  What difference does it even make to you?  Does it somehow validate you if Vampire:the Masquerade was never discontinued?

Quote from: yosemitemike;922605It's not an argument.  It's a simple statement of fact. Vampire:the Masquerade was discontinued by White Wolf in 2004.  It was cancelled.

Do you ever feel like we are revolving an argument? It's not a fact, it's just your repeated assertion.

As pointed out, VtM computer games and licenses were still issued by WW post 2004, while negotiations to make an online game continued after 2004 - it remained their biggest brand.  NWoD fulfilled a marketing plan, but WW never announced at any point that VtM was 'cancelled'.

You could argue 'discontinued' if you like, which is fair, but seeing as the 20th Anniversary line came out in 2011 and was continued under licence to TOP as a line of new supplements since that point, it seems like a moot point to make. Vampire: The Masquerade, with new ownership and a new edition on the horizon, is very much alive and kicking and people are still playing it (and buying it). It's a classic RPG.

I'm not sure why you take the refrain about why I care, when you are arguing just as doggedly in opposition. Why do you care?

Just to put this retarded argument to bed:

http://members.tripod.com/neworleans_larp/white_wolf_release.htm

QuoteAtlanta, GA; July 26, 2003 -- After 12 years of buildup, White Wolf Publishing is bringing its award-winning World of Darkness to a climactic end in an unprecedented series of game supplements and tie-in novels. This is the Time of Judgment.

At a special announcement today, held as part of the Gen Con Game Fair in Indianapolis, IN, White Wolf Publishing brought the exciting and cataclysmic news to its fans and the entertainment community at large. Over the first three months of 2004, the Time of Judgment will unfold and bring a finale to the entire World of Darkness and its trademark games -- Vampire: The Masquerade®, Werewolf: The Apocalypse™, Mage: The Ascension®, Hunter: The Reckoning®, Demon: The Fallen™, Changeling: The Dreaming™, Mummy: The Resurrection™ and Kindred of the East™. Four hardcover game supplements will allow World of Darkness players and Storytellers to tell their own tales of the Time of Judgment. These books will be accompanied by three tie-in novels and special releases for both Mind’s Eye Theatre™ (White Wolf’s popular live-action roleplaying game) and Vampire: The Eternal Struggle® (White Wolf’s collectible trading-card game).

"We’ve been building to this point for years," said Justin Achilli, Intellectual Property Manager for Vampire: The Masquerade. "It’s time to put up or shut up." Indeed, even the very first edition of Vampire, released to acclaim in 1991, included prophecies of Gehenna, the vampires’ version of Armageddon. In 1998, that game’s revised edition ushered in the Final Nights™, a multi-year build up to the Time of Judgment. Every year thereafter brought a major step toward the brink of apocalypse. The Year of the Reckoning™ brought an end to Wraith: The Oblivion™ and ushered in Hunter: The Reckoning, a game chronicling humanity’s last stand against the monsters lurking in the shadows. Similarly, the Year of the Damned™ saw the arrival of demonic forces writ large as the gates of the biblical Hell opened, setting the stage of Demon: The Fallen. "An apocalypse is only exciting and terrifying if it can actually occur," said Mike Tinney, White Wolf’s President. "Our fans have come to expect top-notch storytelling from the World of Darkness, and a great story needs a great ending. It’s time to deliver."

"This really is the Apocalypse," said Ethan Skemp, Line Developer of Werewolf: The Apocalypse. "The final battle Werewolf has been leading up to since the get-go. A lot of fans have become jaded by supposedly earth-shattering events in comics and games that end up just returning to the status quo. This is not one of those." Indeed, after March of 2004, White Wolf will cease publication (and reprinting) of game books set in the modern World of Darkness. (The Dark Ages™ product line -- White Wolf’s medieval horror setting -- will continue as normal.)

"Many other publishers have released new editions of their games over the years. Some with more success and fanfare than others. That’s not what’s happening here," said Tinney. "In this case we’re delivering on a promise we made when Vampire first released in 1991. This end is real and this World of Darkness will never be seen again. What will ultimately follow is going to be wholly different. A new and compelling setting."

White Wolf's official announcement of the cancellation of Vampire: The Masquerade and the "classic" World of Darkness line. Including, amusingly, the very specific explanation that Vampire: The Requiem was not intended as a new edition but a completely different game.

Just to chime in from a publisher side here.
WoD was discontinued and replaced with nWod. Then the company folded and the property passed through a few hands. The PC game doesnt count as that is a seperate license somewhat like the CCG and TV series was. If Im reading it right seems that the original has been revived in some way. That in no way changes the fact the original was discontinued and was dead for a good while.

How long the new stuff stays in circulation remains to be seen.

Quote from: TristramEvans;922621Just to put this retarded argument to be put to bed:

White Wolf's official announcement of the cancellation of Vampire: The Masquerade and the "classic" World of Darkness line. Including, amusingly, the very specific explanation that Vampire: The Requiem was not intended as a new edition but a completely different game.

I was about to acquiesce at this point and say 'fair cop' to someone who has done some good research, then I read it and realised I'd already read it over 10 years ago! It's talking about end of the world of darkness and completing the story. It's also mentioning that there will be a new and compelling WoD. But.... it's marketing talk - a press release blurb.

It doesn't contradict the points I was making that the game itself wasn't cancelled in Firefly fashion, but was specifically done as a marketing ploy in conjunction with the release of the NWoD. The original IP always stayed put though, and was able to be 're-continued' with the 20th anniversary when the time was right - which they did. It wasn't cancelled due to a lack of success, but as a means of maintaining market interest. It doesn't actually say the line was "cancelled" in the blurb.

In relation to Omega's point - I'm going to accept 'discontinued' and apologise to anyone who feels I am arguing too long anyway - the PC game, and the cancelled online game, simply show where the IP licensing money really was still at.

If NWoD was truly the main IP, they would have used that instead for those titles. Moreover, the NWoD no longer exists as an IP - WW changed it to 'Chronicles of Darkness' this year to avoid conflict with their main 'World of Darkness' brand. In an interview, the new White Wolf owner stated clearly that the NWoD titles simply didn't sell enough compared to the Classic WoD titles, and that Vampire: The Masquerade et al were really where their interests lay in developing the IP. The new stuff will be around for a long time simply because of the POD facility which will supposedly keep the game alive in perpetuity.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;922626I was about to acquiesce at this point and say 'fair cop' to someone who has done some good research, then I read it and realised I'd already read it over 10 years ago! It's talking about end of the world of darkness and completing the story. It's also mentioning that there will be a new and compelling WoD. But.... it's marketing talk - a press release blurb.

It doesn't contradict the points I was making that the game itself wasn't cancelled in Firefly fashion, but was specifically done as a marketing ploy in conjunction with the release of the NWoD. The original IP always stayed put though, and was able to be 're-continued' with the 20th anniversary when the time was right - which they did. It wasn't cancelled due to a lack of success, but as a means of maintaining market interest. It doesn't actually say the line was "cancelled" in the blurb.

In relation to Omega's point - I'm going to accept 'discontinued' and apologise to anyone who feels I am arguing too long anyway - the PC game, and the cancelled online game, simply show where the IP licensing money really was still at.

If NWoD was truly the main IP, they would have used that instead for those titles. Moreover, the NWoD no longer exists as an IP - WW changed it to 'Chronicles of Darkness' this year to avoid conflict with their main 'World of Darkness' brand. In an interview, the new White Wolf owner stated clearly that the NWoD titles simply didn't sell enough compared to the Classic WoD titles, and that Vampire: The Masquerade et al were really where their interests lay in developing the IP. The new stuff will be around for a long time simply because of the POD facility which will supposedly keep the game alive in perpetuity.

You're conflating an IP with a gameline. No one here claimed that the "IP" was cancelled. Thats not something that makes any sense.

The Firefly IP wasn't cancelled either.

Quote from: TristramEvans;922630You're conflating an IP with a gameline. No one here claimed that the "IP" was cancelled. Thats not something that makes any sense.

The Firefly IP wasn't cancelled either.

Firefly was cancelled by execs before the end of it's first season on the grounds it wasn't getting the ratings. This is not the case for Vampire, who deliberately wrote a scripted end for it's world and used it to promote the NWoD to follow. I accept that the IP is not the same thing as the game line, but the game line as driven by a metaplot is really just a means of maintaining ongoing sales. Ending the metaplot, essentially, just meant that they could reinvent Vampire et al whenever and however they wanted to.

NWoD was that by design from 2004. V20 came out seven years later, consistent with the sales cycle of the slowdown for NWoD - and a new cycle began. Vampire: TM 4th Edition was due to come out this year, also consistent with this cycle, but was then delayed because WW had a new ownership. I can accept the term 'discontinued', insofar that NWoD was a break from the original IP, but VtM was never really meant to go away in any permanent sense and remained their most valuable IP.

Still, I'm never going to win friends on this site over this point, am I!?

Put it this way, if White Wolf had released Vampire: The Requiem as was but with a Vampire: The Masquerade cover - imagine the edition wars? NWoD was a way of reinvigorating sales at the end of a sales cycle, in the same manner as releasing a new edition, without having to deal with edition wars that had bogged them throughout the Revised Edition cycle from 1998-2003.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;922626I was about to acquiesce at this point and say 'fair cop' to someone who has done some good research, then I read it and realised I'd already read it over 10 years ago! It's talking about end of the world of darkness and completing the story. It's also mentioning that there will be a new and compelling WoD. But.... it's marketing talk - a press release blurb.

It doesn't contradict the points I was making that the game itself wasn't cancelled in Firefly fashion, but was specifically done as a marketing ploy in conjunction with the release of the NWoD. The original IP always stayed put though, and was able to be 're-continued' with the 20th anniversary when the time was right - which they did. It wasn't cancelled due to a lack of success, but as a means of maintaining market interest. It doesn't actually say the line was "cancelled" in the blurb.

In relation to Omega's point - I'm going to accept 'discontinued' and apologise to anyone who feels I am arguing too long anyway - the PC game, and the cancelled online game, simply show where the IP licensing money really was still at.

If NWoD was truly the main IP, they would have used that instead for those titles. Moreover, the NWoD no longer exists as an IP - WW changed it to 'Chronicles of Darkness' this year to avoid conflict with their main 'World of Darkness' brand. In an interview, the new White Wolf owner stated clearly that the NWoD titles simply didn't sell enough compared to the Classic WoD titles, and that Vampire: The Masquerade et al were really where their interests lay in developing the IP. The new stuff will be around for a long time simply because of the POD facility which will supposedly keep the game alive in perpetuity.

The new owner is completely ignorant of how markets work. The nwod didn't sell as many books because the market shrunk as the new millenium began. They have always dominated the market and never had competition. This isn't about profit or attracting new blood, this is about nostalgia and the good will of a few thousand thirty and fourty year olds.

WoD is about 90s white bread suburbia, humanities courses and being SJWs before it was fashionable. It has no longevity in its present form and trying to reboot it for modern sensibilities already happened twice (first with revised/3e, second with Chronicles) and resulted in a flood of death threats from a toxic fanbase.

This doesn't bode well for the IP's future on the market. If the goal is video games, then the only reason it would flourish is due to lack of competition. I can't think of any games that would attract the same audience.

Trippy, you're still conflating IP and gameline.  If DC, WB, whoever decides to cancel one of the umpteen cartoon or other television shows, then the show is canceled.  Batman lives on in IPland and umpteen other products.  Firefly was canceled, Mal and crew live on in IPland (and popped back in a couple comics).

The WoD ENDED.  The Apocalypse/Armageddon/Awakening/Gathering whatever, happened.  As a specific expression of White Wolf IP, the WoD gameline was every bit as done as the television series M.A.S.H. A planned ending vs. a yank by suits doesn't matter.  Done is Done. Shove a fork up its ass, it's done. Over. Finito Mussolini.

As an IP it still exists, however, so can they come up with an alt-history 2050 version of the Original World of Darkness? Sure.  Can they come up with Werewolf: The Culling, with Garou hunting cavemen? Sure.  Is it the same expression of the IP? No.  Not anymore than Batman vs. Superman was the same as the Dark Knight Film Series was the same as the Dark Knight comic book was the same as the Adam West tv show.

As far as which is the main IP goes, who cares?  They decide to make a $.99 phone game which is Flappy Birds reskinned with a bat who turns into a hot chick between rounds, they'll probably make more money than the entire WW printing line over the last 30 years.

Give people a new Vampire the Masquerade cRPG that's moddable on the PC version with microtransactions on the mobile version, and what you do with the actual book line is immaterial, unfortunately.

So, wait--does that make nWoD AfterMASH?