Quote from: yosemitemike;921920The Browncoat types love to pat each other on the back about how their tireless fandom and effort got us the Serenity movie.

I think in general we should all stop worrying that there might be other people out there that are patting themselves on the back for one reason or another. Not because it never happens, but because it's usually recursive.

QuoteThe simplest explanation is usually the correct one.

Oh gods. Just, just go read.

Since we've gone so far off-topic, I would like to say the following statement.

I think it would be awesome to play in an RPG where the PC's are little green Army Men. Sort of like Toy Story meets Only War. Or like the PS1 Army Men video games before the franchise tanked hard and jumped the shark.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;921998You're lucky, you've had good experiences with Goths, all of the ones I dealt with were elitist douchebags....

As a former goth, I have to admit that there is some truth to this statement.

Quote from: Necrozius;922003As a former goth, I have to admit that there is some truth to this statement.

Agreed. Not all Goths are pretentious assholes, just the ones I have dealt with, both in LARP and RPG.net

Quote from: Omega;921972Ive sat through the proof of concept screeners for at least three TV series where a huge amount was spent and they never finished or aired the pilot even.

I know for a fact that a significant portion of episodes of the The Outer Limits reboot were pilot scripts for SF and horror shows that were optioned but never produced as pilots.  (Also, a good chunk of the first season scripts for Stargate SG-1 were leftover Outer Lmits scripts).

QuoteIt just seems completely baffling and insane to me.

If you're used to working in a regular business where every dollar counts and being stupid means you and your family starve, then yes, it can seem bizarre.  Once you realize the truly vast sums of money flying around Hollywood and the fact that most of the people making Big Decisions are not doing so with "their own money" (in the sense that they're not meaningfully accountable for it) ... does that help?  Add in an incredibly incestuous Old Boys Network primarily concerned with keeping each other employed and a very long lead time between "deciding to spend the money" and "finding out whether that's going to make money back", plus the fact that a single hit can carry a hundred failures...it's a weird business.

It gets worse once public subsidies get involved.  I seem to recall you're Canadian.  Dredge up an old Salter Street productions show called Made in Canada; as satirical as it is, that is literally how TV gets made in this country.  Some of the episodes are not even thinly veiled romans a clef of real shows and real Canadian TV execs.

Quote from: yosemitemike;921949I'm tried of answering the same rationalizations over and over again.  You're completely impervious to evidence and common sense.  Believe what you want to believe.  You will anyway.

The manner in which TrippyHippy sees this is very common on the WW forum. I disagree with this view btw. I think you can call a game cancelled if they stop writing books for it for a decade. The only things they did with the old games was offer them on pdf and later on print on demand. One guy on that forum insisted on calling it a "new business strategy" which I thought was bullshit.

Quote from: yosemitemike;921978It just seems completely baffling and insane to me.

You are a living embodiment of Devil's Advocate.

Here, watch: https://youtu.be/80YXpLdiNhE

Quote from: TristramEvans;921956You have a lot of very strong, hate-filled opinions on things that are harmless and good-natured.

I know, right.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;921998No I don't. I was using hyperbole to describe my dislike of Joss Whedon and his works, Firefly in particular since my father is a Browncoat and so was one of those Goth assholes I had the misfortune of LARP'ing with from 2010 to 2012.

You're lucky, you've had good experiences with Goths, all of the ones I dealt with were elitist douchebags who listened to Sisters of Mercy and Type O Negative and generally treated me and my younger brothers like shit.

Maybe it's just location. Maybe your town gets the nice pleasant Goths and Roanoke gets all the dickheads.

Type O Negative's I Don't Wanna Be Me is, like, the perfect goth-y high-school/college song. I had the fortune of hearing it years ago but only properly got into them during uni. All Goths I've known have been decent, cool people or just lazy sacks of shit, to be completely honest

It's starting to feel like you had some Deliverance-type shit happen to you.

Also, you're in Virginia. It's redneck as fuck out there. No shit you had bad experiences. Take your ass to Los Angeles and enjoy the awesomeness that is the really strong Goth/Alt scene that's out there. You'll get wrecked: it'll be awesome!

Quote from: Willie the Duck;922001I think in general we should all stop worrying that there might be other people out there that are patting themselves on the back for one reason or another. Not because it never happens, but because it's usually recursive.



Oh gods. Just, just go read.

See above.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;922006Agreed. Not all Goths are pretentious assholes, just the ones I have dealt with, both in LARP and RPG.net

RPG.net is a cesspit though there are some good people on there and its got exposure so its great for propping your stuff out there. This forum has particular vitriol for it, especially its mods and admin team, funniest thing is like on there so do some members on here need a good fist to the side of their face with the crap they say. But then that's like a lot of people on forums and social media. At least it ain't RPGCodex.net, we definitely don't want to go there.

Quote from: daniel_ream;922013I know for a fact that a significant portion of episodes of the The Outer Limits reboot were pilot scripts for SF and horror shows that were optioned but never produced as pilots.  (Also, a good chunk of the first season scripts for Stargate SG-1 were leftover Outer Lmits scripts).



If you're used to working in a regular business where every dollar counts and being stupid means you and your family starve, then yes, it can seem bizarre.  Once you realize the truly vast sums of money flying around Hollywood and the fact that most of the people making Big Decisions are not doing so with "their own money" (in the sense that they're not meaningfully accountable for it) ... does that help?  Add in an incredibly incestuous Old Boys Network primarily concerned with keeping each other employed and a very long lead time between "deciding to spend the money" and "finding out whether that's going to make money back", plus the fact that a single hit can carry a hundred failures...it's a weird business.

It gets worse once public subsidies get involved.  I seem to recall you're Canadian.  Dredge up an old Salter Street productions show called Made in Canada; as satirical as it is, that is literally how TV gets made in this country.  Some of the episodes are not even thinly veiled romans a clef of real shows and real Canadian TV execs.

It's fucking beautiful, ain't it. Gotta love the Hollywood people.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;922049The manner in which TrippyHippy sees this is very common on the WW forum. I disagree with this view btw. I think you can call a game cancelled if they stop writing books for it for a decade. The only things they did with the old games was offer them on pdf and later on print on demand. One guy on that forum insisted on calling it a "new business strategy" which I thought was bullshit.

No, Mike's argument implies being resurrected means something is still dead and he and others are mixing it up with other bullshit. That's the big issue with what he's saying. If not for that, he'd have been let to live. The whole thing with Firefly is him being shot to shit because he's talking about something he has admittedly very little understanding of and no skin in. Trip's repeating OPP/GMC/V20 fanbase mantra (which is a whole bunch of people who need a slap but that's another story...) but he's actually getting some muscle behind his words and its kinda in the right ballpark.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;922006Agreed. Not all Goths are pretentious assholes, just the ones I have dealt with, both in LARP and RPG.net

Sure, but I'd not let LARP and/or RPG.net be the representation of anything in reality. Most Goths I know today, and those I knew in the 'heyday' of Vampire,  could give a flying fuck about D&D or RPG's in general if they knew anything about it at all.

Vampire seemed to be the point of contact where it tentatively connected with small parts of the community (at least in the LA scene) but I certainly would not say it had any real impact anymore than I would say it crossed over into any other sub-culture. That *gamers* decided "looking like a Goth is fucking kewl!!!" and added it to their affectation-hungry little egos, is well-understood (at least by me). When I was into the convention thing in the late-80's and early 90's I was always wary of the "goth-gamers" mainly because they always felt a little too needy, and usually just into the "trappings" of Goth as opposed to being into the sub-culture (such as it is). Of course there's always the exception... and that usually turned out pleasant for me.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;922002Since we've gone so far off-topic, I would like to say the following statement.

I think it would be awesome to play in an RPG where the PC's are little green Army Men. Sort of like Toy Story meets Only War. Or like the PS1 Army Men video games before the franchise tanked hard and jumped the shark.

The VCL minis game and a few others are like that. You could also play NUTS in that sort of manner. Fuzzy Heroes is war between toys. Or retheme Puppetland RPG into Plastic ArmyMenLand... d20m Gamma World also had the City of Forgotten Toys mini setting so totally possible to have little sentient plastic people battling it out. :eek:

Back on topic. I am surprised the Vampire TV series came out as well as it did. Quite a score for White Wolf.

I don't know any more goths. They've all grown up and become... individuals with varied tastes in media. Come to think of it, so have I. Once in a while, I'll put on a song or two from KMFDM, Children on Stun or Skinny Puppy, but... I dunno it's not the same without the culture existing anymore.

It's all for nostalgia, really.

Quote from: Necrozius;922079It's all for nostalgia, really.

WW's next RPG! Goth: The Reminiscing :cool:

Quote from: PrometheanVigilRPG.net is a cesspit though there are some good people on there and its got exposure so its great for propping your stuff out there. This forum has particular vitriol for it, especially its mods and admin team, funniest thing is like on there so do some members on here need a good fist to the side of their face with the crap they say. But then that's like a lot of people on forums and social media. At least it ain't RPGCodex.net, we definitely don't want to go there

RPG.net and WW/Onyx Path are extremely politically correct and this site is full of people who are very against that mindset (so am I) and behave extremely butthurt about it all the time. The most neutral site without either the policor sjw bullshit and without the rabiate butthurt about the policor mentality is rpggeek. That is really no bullshit, just gaming. Honestly I could do without another "Game developer said DnD sucks!" or "Storygames community thinks their games are superior to OSR." topic. Who cares? But those kind of threads seem to be the most populair around here.

Quote from: Necrozius;922079I don't know any more goths. They've all grown up and become... individuals with varied tastes in media. Come to think of it, so have I. Once in a while, I'll put on a song or two from KMFDM, Children on Stun or Skinny Puppy, but... I dunno it's not the same without the culture existing anymore.

It's all for nostalgia, really.

I know a few. They're doing other stuff in media (in Hollywood) but they still wear all black, but definitely aren't all vamped up or anything. We're OLD after all.

Those calling themselves "Goths" now appear to me to be riding a derailed nostalgia-that's-not-here bandwagon.  But what do I know? I've shifted tax-brackets, have kids in college, and I'm looking forward to the rest of my life on bigger ticket adventures my club-slogging self of yesteryear could never imagine.

This thread reminds me of how... incestuously asinine it is to be sentimental over shit like this. Vampire is a game. It's not "Goth" anymore than it makes you a hardcore rap-fan.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;922106The most neutral site without either the policor sjw bullshit and without the rabiate butthurt about the policor mentality is rpggeek.

BGG/RPGG has its own problems and is definitely no bastion of neutrality.

It is though 1000% times easier to find threads and topics than this or about any other side since most discussion is right on the games forum.

Quote from: PrometheanVigil;922065No, Mike's argument implies being resurrected means something is still dead and he and others are mixing it up with other bullshit.

That's not what I said or argued.  I argued that a 20th anniversary nostalgia edition with no real new material isn't a resurrection.  When the line actually moves forward from where it was, the it will have been resurrected.  That's going to be tough since they destroyed the world.  

Quote from: PrometheanVigil;922065If not for that, he'd have been let to live.

I'm still here and still quite alive.  I dropped the sidetrack but I can pick it back up if you like.

I know what Occam's razor is.  That just sounds less cumbersome than saying "Entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily".  One of these explanations has more entities than are necessary to explain what happened.  Ratings and cost alone are sufficient to explain the outcome.  Adding in a particular type of contract and sabotaging executives is multiplying entities needlessly.  As someone else has already pointed out, the president of the company at the time has supported Whedon in the past so it's unlikely that she actually sabotaged him anyway.  Saying that it does happen (which still boggles my mind) isn't saying that it did happen in this case.  I have seen evidence that it probably didn't and no real evidence that it did.  

Firefly was cancelled because it was an expensive show that not very people wanted to watch.  There may have been more in the way of other factors that I would have thought but that still makes the most sense as the main, overriding, bottom line reason.  This stuff apparently does happen but I have seen no evidence that it did happen with Firefly.  The only evidence that anyone has presented that applies specifically to Firefly points the other way.