Quote from: yosemitemike;921879Ad hoc to the rescue!
https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/8/Ad-Hoc-Rescue
Ad Hoc Rescue
  ad hoc

(also known as: making stuff up*, MSU fallacy*)

You're the person making stuff up.

White Wolf never 'cancelled' Vampire: The Masquerade, as stated. They announced 'The End of the Old World of Darkness' before announcing a "New World of Darkness" after - it was a marketing ploy, that is all. We know that they didn't 'cancel' it in the same manner as Firefly, as the example goes, because it remains their most valuable IP still - the brand that makes them the most money by a country mile. It is why, quite specifically, they were bought up for by CCP and now Paradox. And the proof of all this is they are still making new Vampire: The Masquerade products and plans today, with a new edition in the works along with everything else they have planned. It makes any notion that Vampire: TM is over quite absurd.

Firefly was literally cancelled during the first series because execs decided it wasn't making enough money or ratings. The same has never been true with Vampire: The Masquerade. They simply used a marketing idea to promote a 'New World of Darkness" by saying the old one had ended, which kinda worked for a while, before they returned to their main IP brand for the real business development which was supposed to be an online game.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;921944You're the person making stuff up.

Tell yourself whatever you want.

Quote from: yosemitemike;921946Tell yourself whatever you want.

Seriously, this is all you've got?

Quote from: TrippyHippy;921947Seriously, this is all you've got?

I'm tried of answering the same rationalizations over and over again.  You're completely impervious to evidence and common sense.  Believe what you want to believe.  You will anyway.

Quote from: yosemitemike;921949I'm tried of answering the same rationalizations over and over again.  You're completely impervious to evidence and common sense.  Believe what you want to believe.  You will anyway.

Start presenting actual evidence and common sense rather than flat antagonism, and you might get somewhere.

Quote from: ThatChrisGuy;921934Seconded.  I don't like Joss Whedon's works at all.  My geek buddies look at me like I've grown an extra head when I tell them that.

I think he's talented, but not nearly as talented as he and his fans like to think.  I've always liked Yahtzee (Ben Croshaw)'s criticism: "The man has no sense of character voice.  Take your favorite Joss Whedon line. Any line, from any show.  Now - is there any other Joss Whedon character for whom that line would sound out of character?"

He writes good dialogue.  He's genre savvy, and he knows his audience is too and he knows how to use that to screw with their expectations.  But he's not the Second Coming, and he has some pretty serious personal issues that are hard to ignore since he can't seem to help cramming them into everything he writes.

If you want to see a rather subtle takedown of Whedon from inside, look up the TV show unReal.  It's a roman a clef about Marti Noxon and Joss Whedon.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;921931Am I the only one on this planet who doesn't like Firefly? In my opinion it is highly overrated (like nearly all of Whedon's works), so I really don't care as to why it was cancelled. Let's get back on topic.

Joss Whedon is a talentless hack and shameless Marvel fanboy who can fornicate himself with an iron stick, at least in my opinion.

You have a lot of very strong, hate-filled opinions on things that are harmless and good-natured.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;921567Actually, I think there's a bit more to it than that with Vampire. In the early 90s gamers were looking for things that were very alternative to D&D. Vampire filled that particular niche for many gamers. It went above and beyond being just a genre game.

Alternatives were being created nearly from day one. Traveller, Bunnies & Burrows, Superfero 2022, James Bond, Boot Hill, Call of Cthulhu and all the rest. White Wolfs RPGs were just one in a long chain of these sorts of breaks from the norm.

Quote from: yosemitemike;921570Here's a question.  A game called NightLife came out a year or so before Vampire:the Masquerade.  It had a broadly similar setup with people playing vampire that existed hidden in modern society.  In many ways, the games are quite similar.  Why did Vampire take off while NightLife is forgotten?

Marketing and/or timing. Nightlife didnt seem to have the marketing WW put into their product. WW had adds in about every gaming magazine and convention presence. Nightlife had little of that. Nights Edge was another that didnt seem to have much advertising presence. That came out in 92.

Quote from: yosemitemike;921879Fans come up with all sorts of crazy ad hoc reasons why some show/game/other thing they like got cancelled.  I have seen someone seriously claim that Fox Network executives were conspiring to lower Firefly's ratings so they could have an excuse to cancel it.  Network executives were conspiring to kill a show that they had just spent millions to have developed so they could cancel it because reasons.  Yeah, that makes sense.  I have also seen someone seriously claim that Bleach was sabotaged by Shonen Jump because the editors hated Kubo personally.  I'll let you in on a little secret that's not actually a secret at all.  These things almost always get cancelled for one simple reason.  They aren't making enough money any more.  Firefly was cancelled because not enough people were watching it.  Bleach was cancelled because it was rock bottom in the Jump rankings.  oWoD was cancelled because people weren't buying it any more.  That's the reality.

Uh... You really don't know media and execs then.

Side A Greenlights project then Side B sabotages project is appallingly common. Millions have been spent on movies never intended to even be shown. Ive sat through the proof of concept screeners for at least three TV series where a huge amount was spent and they never finished or aired the pilot even.

Back on topic. How long would a Vampire MMO have lasted had it actually saw release? Considering the fractious nature of the fanbase. Would it have held together as long as Matrix online? Or collapsed? Who knows.

Quote from: Omega;921972Side A Greenlights project then Side B sabotages project is appallingly common. Millions have been spent on movies never intended to even be shown. Ive sat through the proof of concept screeners for at least three TV series where a huge amount was spent and they never finished or aired the pilot even.

It just seems completely baffling and insane to me.

Quote from: yosemitemike;921978It just seems completely baffling and insane to me.

Thats because it is. 2 million spent on one. Sets, costumes, props, the works, 90% filmed and then canned.

Quote from: TristramEvans;921956You have a lot of very strong, hate-filled opinions on things that are harmless and good-natured.

I'm just tired of people acting like Joss Whedon is the Second Coming when he is mediocre at best. I got burnt out on Whedon's works a long time ago.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;921987I'm just tired of people acting like Joss Whedon is the Second Coming when he is mediocre at best. I got burnt out on Whedon's works a long time ago.

But you've taken that to weird excessively violent revenge porn fantasies on unrelated internet forums. Over some people liking a television writer you don't like (I understand Firefly has a bit of a fanbase, but never got the impression it was anything close to Trekkies or Star Wars nuts). I mean, do you get really angry at people at the supermarket buying cereal brands you don't like the taste of?

Quote from: TristramEvans;921995But you've taken that to weird excessively violent revenge porn fantasies on unrelated internet forums. Over some people liking a television writer you don't like (I understand Firefly has a bit of a fanbase, but never got the impression it was anything close to Trekkies or Star Wars nuts). I mean, do you get really angry at people at the supermarket buying cereal brands you don't like the taste of?

No I don't. I was using hyperbole to describe my dislike of Joss Whedon and his works, Firefly in particular since my father is a Browncoat and so was one of those Goth assholes I had the misfortune of LARP'ing with from 2010 to 2012.

You're lucky, you've had good experiences with Goths, all of the ones I dealt with were elitist douchebags who listened to Sisters of Mercy and Type O Negative and generally treated me and my younger brothers like shit.

Maybe it's just location. Maybe your town gets the nice pleasant Goths and Roanoke gets all the dickheads.