Quote from: Necrozius;921702So weird. All of the people that I played Vampire with, whether they were goth, industrial, anime-nerd, jock or normal, all kind of played the game the same way: katanas and trenchcoats. Oh and lots of wacky Malkies. Ugh.

I can't remember a single time that we had a character tormented by their nature or humanity. Sure there was inter-character drama, but none of the stuff Doc Sammy's riling against.

fake edit: the three times I LARPed was with large groups and it centered mostly on politics and intrigue, really. Hardly any moping.

There is a reason for that. Most people play RPG's to have fun, not to be tormented. Hence why Trenchcoats & Katanas and political games are both more popular than personal horror. In all honesty, personal horror games seem to be an exercise in emotional masochism from my perspective at least.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;921739There is a reason for that. Most people play RPG's to have fun, not to be tormented. Hence why Trenchcoats & Katanas and political games are both more popular than personal horror. In all honesty, personal horror games seem to be an exercise in emotional masochism from my perspective at least.

I don't know. I think most people play RPGs to be entertained, but as with any other medium (Movies, TV, Books) you don't just want the same experience from every game. Vampire was attempting to do something a bit different in it's gameplay, and although some gamers reverted to type when they played it, it doesn't delegitimise the ambition to do something that reaches beyond typical play.

I don't agree that personal horror is an exercise of emotional masochism, but mores it's a way with engaging with strong emotions in a safe environment. In the same way going to see a horror movie or going on a rollercoaster is entertaining.

Quote from: yosemitemike;921738That's part of the same nostalgia thing.  It turns out that oWoD nostalgia sells pretty well.  The game line was officially cancelled over ten years ago though and the nWoD line has been as good as dead for years.  I vaguely remember talk of a 4th edition but it never materialized.  It might come back but for now it's a dead line.

The game line wasn't cancelled over ten years ago at all - they just changed the way fans could buy it. You can still buy brand new books for Vampire: The Masquerade now, and there are more books in the pipeline with original material. And a new edition coming. There was never any official announcement that Vampire: The Masquerade was 'complete' or ended, ever. They just did a whole marketing thing when they introduced the 'New World of Darkness" thing, knowing full well that the original brand could be reignited whenever they felt like it. The 20th Anniversary lines were just that, and they've been running for the last 5+ years without break so far.

There might have been an inordinate amount of players of the trenchcoat-katana brigade (I have actually no idea, as they were pretty rare in my experience- usually just the guy who had only ever played hack n slash D&D and/or Rifts and treated the game in the same way), but my suspicion is that Vampire's success in the 90s was largely based on the goth crowd that bought the game without necessarily ever playing it. Vampire also inordinately appealed to girls in a way no other RPG did, and that was entirely based on the gothic aesthetic

But then, of all the geek subcultures I've encountered over the last 30 years, I' gladly take the goths over any other clique. On the whole my experience is that goths were generally intelligent, shy, and possessed of good or even great etiquette. I never had one steal from me, never had one show up to a game drunk or high, and never had one pick a fight. In general, goth to me means a better than average chance the person isn't an asshole. There's very few other cliques I can say that about.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;921739There is a reason for that. Most people play RPG's to have fun, not to be tormented. Hence why Trenchcoats & Katanas and political games are both more popular than personal horror. In all honesty, personal horror games seem to be an exercise in emotional masochism from my perspective at least.

The personal horror element of Vampire was the Humanity score on your sheet. It was a mechanic. Vampire is as much about the the players being tormented as Call of Cthulhu is about driving the players mad. Bad things happening to my characters is not even close to bad things happening to me.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with just ignoring the humanity mechanic and just playing superheroes. Actually most of the customers in the area of the store I worked at were more into the political backstabbing than Trenchcoats and Katanas. It's just that the idea that people that the Humanity mechanics were some kind of sadistic psychological weapon that the GM used on the players is ridiculous. It's bordering on Chick Comic nonsense about the way RPGs work in the real world.

Quote from: TristramEvans;921752There might have been an inordinate amount of players of the trenchcoat-katana brigade (I have actually no idea, as they were pretty rare in my experience- usually just the guy who had only ever played hack n slash D&D and/or Rifts and treated the game in the same way), but my suspicion is that Vampire's success in the 90s was largely based on the goth crowd that bought the game without necessarily ever playing it. Vampire also inordinately appealed to girls in a way no other RPG did, and that was entirely based on the gothic aesthetic.

I was working in gaming retail in the '90s, and all those points are true. There was also the Lapsed Gamer. These were guys in their twenties that weren't in a gaming group anymore, but hadn't let gaming go. They would drop by the store every week or so and buy some books to read. There were a lot of them in the wake of the '80s gaming boom. I believe that was a big part of the metaplot trend. As these people never got to play. they wanted to see a campaign play out in the books.

Eventually these guys dropped out completely or actually started gaming again. The market for game books that had little use at the table dried up a bit.

QuoteBut then, of all the geek subcultures I've encountered over the last 30 years, I' gladly take the goths over any other clique. On the whole my experience is that goths were generally intelligent, shy, and possessed of good or even great etiquette. I never had one steal from me, never had one show up to a game drunk or high, and never had one pick a fight. In general, goth to me means a better than average chance the person isn't an asshole. There's very few other cliques I can say that about.

Good point. I knew a fair number of goths in the '80s and '90s, although I was never one myself. They were consistently pretty good people.Unlike pop culture stereotype goths, they usually had a pretty good sense of humor too.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;921744The game line wasn't cancelled over ten years ago at all -

Vampire: the Masquerade was cancelled over ten years ago.  This is a simply fact that is not in dispute.

Quote from: yosemitemike;921783Vampire: the Masquerade was cancelled over ten years ago.  This is a simply fact that is not in dispute.

Again with this weird notion of what is a fact or not. They have written and released official Vampire: The Masquerade books in the last decade. Nothing has been cancelled ever.

Guys. This is a thread about the earliest days of the game. Go find another thread to argue about the latest days of the game if you really care, and you really shouldn't.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;921787Nothing has been cancelled ever.

All the oWoD game lines were cancelled at the same time before the release on nWoD.  Did you somehow miss this?

Quote from: yosemitemike;921795All the oWoD game lines were cancelled at the same time before the release on nWoD.  Did you somehow miss this?

As I said before, this just amounted to a marketing ploy by WW at the time (back in 2004). The way it happened was that WW made a big splash in the various media outlets that 'WoD was Ending' - which made a load of fans buy a load of books that year, before then announcing a "New Word of Darkness" to replace it all. This just served the same purpose as effectively making new editions of each respective game, in pure marketing and strictly financial terms. It was just a marketing gimmick, that you seemed to have interpreted in a literal way.

Essentially, they needed to release a new edition for each of their lines, simply to keep revenues up, but had themselves in a difficult situation as they couldn't go ahead and release a new "Revised" line a second time. The fanbase had become increasingly agitated by the Revision process, and the tolerance just wasn't there to do the same as they had done in 1998. As such they chose to create a 'New World of Darkness' allowing them to take a new spin on all the original games, alter the core system somewhat, and avoid any major backlash from their fanbase. But the  original WoD lines were never shelved. Licensed computer games for Vampire: The Masquerade were still being released while the NWoD line was in full throttle, the organised live action groups were still generally playing using the old rules (the NWoD LA rules weren't popular), while the sell off to CCP was specifically to make a MMO of the classic game and had no interest with the NWoD stuff at all.

Moreover, the 20th Anniversary book came out in 2011, and has been supported with supplements ever since. To say that the oWoD games have been 'cancelled' when they have all been released as new editions with supplemental lines, flies in face of the obvious. They aren't reprints either - they have continued to make plenty of new material for the games.

Quote from: Baulderstone;921777The personal horror element of Vampire was the Humanity score on your sheet. It was a mechanic. Vampire is as much about the the players being tormented as Call of Cthulhu is about driving the players mad. Bad things happening to my characters is not even close to bad things happening to me.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with just ignoring the humanity mechanic and just playing superheroes. Actually most of the customers in the area of the store I worked at were more into the political backstabbing than Trenchcoats and Katanas. It's just that the idea that people that the Humanity mechanics were some kind of sadistic psychological weapon that the GM used on the players is ridiculous. It's bordering on Chick Comic nonsense about the way RPGs work in the real world.

You've never been in the LARP scene in Roanoke, Virginia, have you? The ST's often did use Humanity as a sadistic psychological weapon against the players. I've got lots of horror stories I can share.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;921824You've never been in the LARP scene in Roanoke, Virginia, have you? The ST's often did use Humanity as a sadistic psychological weapon against the players. I've got lots of horror stories I can share.

In a horror RPG? Who'd have thunk!

I just picked up the revised Masquerade rulebook from 1998-1999. Mostly for nostalgia, mind you.

There are some neat things in there but after reading the game mechanics I must say that after being exposed to many other RPGs, including the more recent WoD, I don't like them anymore.

The new WoD games "feel" more elegant and streamlined.

Quote from: Necrozius;921836I just picked up the revised Masquerade rulebook from 1998-1999. Mostly for nostalgia, mind you.

There are some neat things in there but after reading the game mechanics I must say that after being exposed to many other RPGs, including the more recent WoD, I don't like them anymore.

The new WoD games "feel" more elegant and streamlined.

For once, I am in agreement with you. Requiem was so much better than Masquerade mainly due to superior mechanics and lack of metaplot. Humanity is still a hinderance, but it is easier to remove in Requiem than in Masquerade mechanically speaking.