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What was playing Vampire: TM like in the earliest days of the game?

Started by Shipyard Locked, August 30, 2016, 01:36:46 PM

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daniel_ream

#225
September 23, 2016, 05:02:35 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;921239If he set out to make the audience hate his characters for being assholes with IQs in the toilet, then he succeeded. What is the point of reading a book where you're rooting for the villain to eat the heroes?

You're so close, and I'm baffled you're not seeing it.
D&D is becoming Self-Referential.  It is no longer Setting Referential, where it takes references outside of itself. It is becoming like Ouroboros in its self-gleaning for tropes, no longer attached, let alone needing outside context.
~ Opaopajr

jan paparazzi

#226
September 24, 2016, 08:41:56 AM
Quote from: yosemitemike;919972Taking the whole game line into account, Vampire hardly seems to know what Vampire's themes are.

I think Vampire is beating us over the head with it's themes, but doesn't give use the tools that actually let those themes get played out on the game table. I think Fate for example handles themes better by linking them to locations or NPC's and therefor making them come up during play. If the theme of your game is "dark mystery" for example; how do you make that come up during play? In other words what are the PC's supposed to do during a game to enforce that theme? The books are always pretty vague about that.
May I say that? Yes, I may say that!

jan paparazzi

#227
September 24, 2016, 08:54:41 AM
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;920475I was surprised to see fans of WoD say Anne Rice was either not an influence or not a big one. Personally, when I first saw Vampire, it looked like someone had read Interview with a Vampire and made a game based on the experience (which was cool and fine by me). People saying there isn't a connection, is only something I've encountered online and I really don't understand it when I've seen it.

Mark Rein Hagen said it was Ann Rice plus conspiracies. It took the twist of actually playing the monster from Ann Rice and added the factions and organisations to that idea. In Requiem Near Dark and Lost Boys are also mentioned as inspiration. Let the right one in is mentioned as well.
May I say that? Yes, I may say that!

TrippyHippy

#228
September 24, 2016, 11:43:59 PM
Quote from: Doc Sammy;921233True. D&D and VTM did compete some in the 90's, but overall they went after two different markets.

So, does anybody like my picks for a Vampire soundtrack?
Have you got Joy Division in there, or Stone Roses? Can't have a Vampire soundtrack without...
I pretended that a picture of a toddler was representative of the Muslim Migrant population to Europe and then lied about a Private Message I sent to Pundit when I was admonished for it.  (Edited by Admin)

TrippyHippy

#229
September 24, 2016, 11:45:37 PM
Quote from: Omega;921228Not so much threatened D&D as it grabbed an untapped market. Just like Traveller pretty much swept up the SF side while TSR was still experimenting with the odder stuff. Same with Gurps, it settled into an as yet untapped (or at least not well tapped) market for generic "be anything" system. Ravenloft picked up the fantasy gothic fans and Vampire grabbed the lions share of the modern gothic. Vampire also branched out into LARPs which even now D&D has not tapped.
Actually, I think there's a bit more to it than that with Vampire. In the early 90s gamers were looking for things that were very alternative to D&D. Vampire filled that particular niche for many gamers. It went above and beyond being just a genre game.
I pretended that a picture of a toddler was representative of the Muslim Migrant population to Europe and then lied about a Private Message I sent to Pundit when I was admonished for it.  (Edited by Admin)

yosemitemike

#230
September 25, 2016, 12:28:34 AM
Here's a question.  A game called NightLife came out a year or so before Vampire:the Masquerade.  It had a broadly similar setup with people playing vampire that existed hidden in modern society.  In many ways, the games are quite similar.  Why did Vampire take off while NightLife is forgotten?
"I am certain, however, that nothing has done so much to destroy the juridical safeguards of individual freedom as the striving after this mirage of social justice."― Friedrich Hayek
Another former RPGnet member permanently banned for calling out the staff there on their abdication of their responsibilities as moderators and admins and their abject surrender to the whims of the shrillest and most self-righteous members of the community.

AaronBrown99

#231
September 25, 2016, 12:40:44 AM
Quote from: yosemitemike;921570Here's a question.  A game called NightLife came out a year or so before Vampire:the Masquerade.  It had a broadly similar setup with people playing vampire that existed hidden in modern society.  In many ways, the games are quite similar.  Why did Vampire take off while NightLife is forgotten?

Production values alone explains it. A very attractive hardcover with evocative design. Nightlife, if I recall my days working at the mall game store, was a much smaller softcover with 'so-so' art.
"Who cares if the classes are balanced? A Cosmo-Knight and a Vagabond walk into a Juicer Bar... Forget it Jake, it\'s Rifts."  - CRKrueger

TrippyHippy

#232
September 25, 2016, 01:42:01 AM
Quote from: yosemitemike;921570Here's a question.  A game called NightLife came out a year or so before Vampire:the Masquerade.  It had a broadly similar setup with people playing vampire that existed hidden in modern society.  In many ways, the games are quite similar.  Why did Vampire take off while NightLife is forgotten?
Nightlife just wasn't that good. It looked a bit like a Cyberpunk supplement, but the game mechanics weren't anything new or interesting and the art and writing were meh.
I pretended that a picture of a toddler was representative of the Muslim Migrant population to Europe and then lied about a Private Message I sent to Pundit when I was admonished for it.  (Edited by Admin)

yosemitemike

#233
September 25, 2016, 04:01:14 AM
Quote from: AaronBrown99;921573Production values alone explains it. A very attractive hardcover with evocative design. Nightlife, if I recall my days working at the mall game store, was a much smaller softcover with 'so-so' art.

The art in NightLife was rather poor.  I still have my copy someplace.  The cover is rather amateurish looking.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;921575Nightlife just wasn't that good. It looked a bit like a Cyberpunk supplement, but the game mechanics weren't anything new or interesting and the art and writing were meh.

Storyteller wasn't anything new either.  The art in Vampire was certainly better.  

Was it the art?  Did Vampire:the Masquerade just look better?
"I am certain, however, that nothing has done so much to destroy the juridical safeguards of individual freedom as the striving after this mirage of social justice."― Friedrich Hayek
Another former RPGnet member permanently banned for calling out the staff there on their abdication of their responsibilities as moderators and admins and their abject surrender to the whims of the shrillest and most self-righteous members of the community.

TrippyHippy

#234
September 25, 2016, 07:15:36 AM Last Edit: September 25, 2016, 07:34:42 AM by TrippyHippy
Quote from: yosemitemike;921596Storyteller wasn't anything new either.  The art in Vampire was certainly better.  

Was it the art?  Did Vampire:the Masquerade just look better?
The Storyteller system had it's antecedents in other games - notably Prince Valiant and dice pool games like Ghostbusters and Shadowrun - but these were not mainstream at the time. Vampire made the alternative mainstream, whilst also tapping into ideas about telling a story, personality driven mechanics, live action and diceless play, easy on they eye character sheets, as well as a certain maverick writing style that appealed to many. And it looked a whole lot cooler with a red rose on marble background for it's cover. When it was released and I first saw it on the shelf I didn't even realise it was a RPG, as it just looked like some sort of art book. One cannot underestimate the impact that cover must have had.
I pretended that a picture of a toddler was representative of the Muslim Migrant population to Europe and then lied about a Private Message I sent to Pundit when I was admonished for it.  (Edited by Admin)

yosemitemike

#235
September 25, 2016, 08:01:20 AM
No RPG other than D&D was anything like mainstream at the time.  Vampire tapped into something that was around at the time that NightLife didn't reach.  It wasn't the dice pool.  I doubt it was the system at all.  I doubt that the system was a significant factor at all.  The great majority of people just don't get excited over a dice pool mechanic.  One thing that everyone agrees on is the covers.  NightLife had an ugly, amateurish cover and Vampire had a stylish, evocative cover.  Is that the difference?
"I am certain, however, that nothing has done so much to destroy the juridical safeguards of individual freedom as the striving after this mirage of social justice."― Friedrich Hayek
Another former RPGnet member permanently banned for calling out the staff there on their abdication of their responsibilities as moderators and admins and their abject surrender to the whims of the shrillest and most self-righteous members of the community.

Mordred Pendragon

#236
September 25, 2016, 08:05:46 AM
True, visually speaking, Vampire was a very impressive game. The settings and concepts introduced in First Edition were mind-blowing and Vampire was really the first modern setting to truly succeed in RPG's. Before that, all the big games were either D&D-esque fantasy or science fiction. Shame that such an initially awesome game was ultimately crippled by its poorly implemented themes of personal horror and its overbearing metaplot. Despite what the Goths say, it was personal horror and metaplot that killed Vampire.

Turns out most people prefer Trenchcoats & Katanas and don't want edgelords like Justin Achilli shaming them for it.
Sic Semper Tyrannis

TrippyHippy

#237
September 25, 2016, 08:29:04 AM
Quote from: Doc Sammy;921620True, visually speaking, Vampire was a very impressive game. The settings and concepts introduced in First Edition were mind-blowing and Vampire was really the first modern setting to truly succeed in RPG's. Before that, all the big games were either D&D-esque fantasy or science fiction. Shame that such an initially awesome game was ultimately crippled by its poorly implemented themes of personal horror and its overbearing metaplot. Despite what the Goths say, it was personal horror and metaplot that killed Vampire.

Turns out most people prefer Trenchcoats & Katanas and don't want edgelords like Justin Achilli shaming them for it.
Vampire wasn't killed. It's still going and is popular as hell.
I pretended that a picture of a toddler was representative of the Muslim Migrant population to Europe and then lied about a Private Message I sent to Pundit when I was admonished for it.  (Edited by Admin)

yosemitemike

#238
September 25, 2016, 09:21:36 AM
Quote from: TrippyHippy;921624Vampire wasn't killed. It's still going and is popular as hell.

Vampire:the Masquerade is dead.  It was cancelled in 2004 when Vampire:the Requiem came out.  Vampire:the Requiem hasn't seen a new book since 2009.  It's still played but it's heyday came and went a decade and a half ago.  Vampire might not be technically dead with things like the 20th Anniversary but it has been as good as dead for years.  I'm sure people still play it in one form or another but, as a game line, it's dead.
"I am certain, however, that nothing has done so much to destroy the juridical safeguards of individual freedom as the striving after this mirage of social justice."― Friedrich Hayek
Another former RPGnet member permanently banned for calling out the staff there on their abdication of their responsibilities as moderators and admins and their abject surrender to the whims of the shrillest and most self-righteous members of the community.

Mordred Pendragon

#239
September 25, 2016, 11:03:09 AM
Quote from: yosemitemike;921634Vampire:the Masquerade is dead.  It was cancelled in 2004 when Vampire:the Requiem came out.  Vampire:the Requiem hasn't seen a new book since 2009.  It's still played but it's heyday came and went a decade and a half ago.  Vampire might not be technically dead with things like the 20th Anniversary but it has been as good as dead for years.  I'm sure people still play it in one form or another but, as a game line, it's dead.

This. Very much this. Outside of a few diehards and the occasional PDF release like V20 or Blood & Smoke, Vampire is dead. And White Wolf has only themselves to blame.

Turns out that personal horror is not a popular nor viable theme when making a game. The issue was that with both iterations of Vampire, they listened to the vocal minority and excessively pandered to them. When the Goth subculture waned in the 2000's, the vocal minority got even smaller but also louder. Rather than embrace the popular Trenchcoats & Katanas playstyle, WW condemned it.
Sic Semper Tyrannis
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