Quote from: yosemitemike;919623There's a sourcebook titles Cold Hands, Dark Heart that is about modern urban horror in BESM.  It's more horror anime than WoD horror but a lot of the stuff would be usable.  I got it intending to run a game like that but it never got off the ground.

Cold Hands, Dark Heart is good, but I want a direct VTM 1e game on a better system rather than a game that is  just similar to early WoD.

I once attempted to convert Requiem to BESM 1e, even had a short-lived thread on this very site's Design board about it, but I lost the notes I had written and the project was abandoned. I could do a similar thing for Masquerade's conversion.

Quote from: daniel_ream;919615Yes.  You really, really like anime.  We get it.

That and BESM is a really good rules-lite system that I would like even without the anime stuff in it.

Quote from: daniel_ream;919615Yes.  You really, really like anime.  We get it.

The same system has also been used in a super hero rpg, as the basis for a generic RPG and even for a Ghost Dog:Way of the Samurai RPG GoO did.  The anime feel of BESM mostly come things like the characters options like Own A Big Mecha and the GM advice that focuses on anime style games.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;919504Why do people act like "Trenchcoats and Katanas" in WoD is a bad thing? It's awesome and fun!

Obviously, at this point, it's clear that there isn't anything wrong with it. Everyone likes what they like and for the most part, there is no right. Back in 1991, I was trying to explore this new game about exploring each character's motivations an living in a world where you were a monster, realized you were a monster, knew that the rest of your kind were monsters, and what that meant to you. I'm sure I had a player say, "whatever. It's D&D, but you get to play as a super-powered vampire in modern times that fights other vampires and maybe werewolves! Let's see which weapon does the most damage!" And I'm sure I gave them my best Strother Martin "failure to communicate" line. I'm sure by now the people that want to play one way have found groups that support that, and those that want to play another groups that support that.

QuoteIf anything is a bad thing, it would be "Personal Horror". Whining and wangsting like a bunch of mopey crybaby Goths, honestly I do not see the fun in that at all.

What is it with this site (and online gaming forums in general) that so many people have this urge to reframe it to imply that it is always the other who is a whining crybaby? You just complained that people were disparaging your preferred type of play and then went on to disparage peoples' preferred type of play. What purpose does that serve except to make you appear a hypocrite?

Quote from: TristramEvans;919461Guess thats why Dark Ages: Vampire is the only book from that line I still own.

Longcoats and bastardswords? :cool:

Quote from: Willie the Duck;919769Obviously, at this point, it's clear that there isn't anything wrong with it. Everyone likes what they like and for the most part, there is no right. Back in 1991, I was trying to explore this new game about exploring each character's motivations an living in a world where you were a monster, realized you were a monster, knew that the rest of your kind were monsters, and what that meant to you. I'm sure I had a player say, "whatever. It's D&D, but you get to play as a super-powered vampire in modern times that fights other vampires and maybe werewolves! Let's see which weapon does the most damage!" And I'm sure I gave them my best Strother Martin "failure to communicate" line. I'm sure by now the people that want to play one way have found groups that support that, and those that want to play another groups that support that.



What is it with this site (and online gaming forums in general) that so many people have this urge to reframe it to imply that it is always the other who is a whining crybaby? You just complained that people were disparaging your preferred type of play and then went on to disparage peoples' preferred type of play. What purpose does that serve except to make you appear a hypocrite?

I guess it does make me look hypocritical and for that, I am truly sorry. It's just I get so sick of the rampant and condescending "One True Way" attitude that is so prevalent in the White Wolf fandom that I have developed a knee-jerk overreaction to it.

All Unlives Matter, bruh.

Apparently theres been a few tries to convert Vampire to BESM now. Not sure how far they got. Im guessing most puttered out after a while.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;919835I guess it does make me look hypocritical and for that, I am truly sorry. It's just I get so sick of the rampant and condescending "One True Way" attitude that is so prevalent in the White Wolf fandom that I have developed a knee-jerk overreaction to it.

The smug, smarmy, condescending people who say that it's okay if some people play trenchcoats and katanas WoD because they "don't get it" are the worst.

Quote from: yosemitemike;919935The smug, smarmy, condescending people who say that it's okay if some people play trenchcoats and katanas WoD because they "don't get it" are the worst.

Agreed

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;916230What was playing Vampire: The Masquerade like in the earliest days of the game?

Basically around the time of its first release and rise in popularity, when it was all raw and fresh, before splatbooks and the ballooning of the world of darkness, before the 90s had fully asserted themselves and the likely shape of the 2000s was perceptible. What did people make of it coming off of other games?

Didn't register. at all.

For one thing from the mid-eighties to the late eighties pretty much lived the Goth/Vampire lifestyle, hitting the hottest clubs very... very... often on the West Coast in L.A., SF, and Palm Springs. Lost Boys came out in 87 (And all of a sudden, everyone wanted to be a Vampire) , and of course their was the Cure, and the Smiths. Depeche Mode, Echo and the Bunnymen, Human League, Frankie goes to Hollywood, Dead Kennedys, and plenty of other new Goth bands . Books from Anne Rice were very popular in my circles, and everyone wanted to be like Lestat. So... Goth. Moody. Dark. Had friends that started Goth bands and we hung out and had a good time partying and imagining what it would be like if we were Vampires.

...and then all of a sudden there is this RPG, and we are like "Wait What? It's actually not enough to go out clubbing with an awesome Goth crew, now someone wants to make it into an RPG game? how lame.

Then the 90's kicked off, and all of a sudden there are all these Vampire movies, and V:TM gets really popular, only it's an RPG that doesn't really use dice, the kids are just making stuff up, and wondering why their games collapse into a tangled mess of emo wailing and suffering, but they don't even have a baseline for an rpg, just a loose framework of rules that everyone interprets pretty much any way they please.

I was on the outside looking in, having lived what all the kids then wanted to play... and witnessing them trying to play, what they should have been living, if they wanted to keep up with the times.

Quote from: GameDaddy;919948Didn't register. at all.

For one thing from the mid-eighties to the late eighties pretty much lived the Goth/Vampire lifestyle, hitting the hottest clubs very... very... often on the West Coast in L.A., SF, and Palm Springs. Lost Boys came out in 87 (And all of a sudden, everyone wanted to be a Vampire) , and of course their was the Cure, and the Smiths. Depeche Mode, Echo and the Bunnymen, Human League, Frankie goes to Hollywood, Dead Kennedys, and plenty of other new Goth bands . Books from Anne Rice were very popular in my circles, and everyone wanted to be like Lestat. So... Goth. Moody. Dark. Had friends that started Goth bands and we hung out and had a good time partying and imagining what it would be like if we were Vampires.

...and then all of a sudden there is this RPG, and we are like "Wait What? It's actually not enough to go out clubbing with an awesome Goth crew, now someone wants to make it into an RPG game? how lame.

Then the 90's kicked off, and all of a sudden there are all these Vampire movies, and V:TM gets really popular, only it's an RPG that doesn't really use dice, the kids are just making stuff up, and wondering why their games collapse into a tangled mess of emo wailing and suffering, but they don't even have a baseline for an rpg, just a loose framework of rules that everyone interprets pretty much any way they please.

I was on the outside looking in, having lived what all the kids then wanted to play.

So, you actually lived the Goth lifestyle at the very height of the subculture? What was it like? Most of my bad experiences with Goths come from old thirty-and-forty-something burnouts I had the misfortune of LARP'ing with from 2010-2012 and jerks on the internet, but you seem kind of cool to be honest.

What was Goth like back then? Before it all crashed and burned. Was there regional differences between subcultures? (I live in Virginia, whereas you seem to have been in California back then)

I ask because I'm a twenty-three year old who wasn't even born when some of this happened and was a small child for most of the 90's (I was born in '93). I wonder what it was like back then. I'm serious.

Quote from: yosemitemike;918977To some extent.  Sometimes you had to spend willpower which was not an unlimited resource.  You can't always control the beast.

Yeah, that's a hugely 'problematic' part of the game and I'm surprised Onyx Path and White Wolf haven't been called on it. Perhaps it's because this capability for violence and loss of control is not drawn across gender/racial lines?

Quote from: Doc Sammy;919347So, can't we all agree that 1e was so much better than Revised? At least thematically.

Hell ye...

Quote from: Doc Sammy;919504Why do people act like "Trenchcoats and Katanas" in WoD is a bad thing? It's awesome and fun!

If anything is a bad thing, it would be "Personal Horror". Whining and wangsting like a bunch of mopey crybaby Goths, honestly I do not see the fun in that at all.

...errr, we apparently have drastically different ideas of what those themes were.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;919957Yeah, that's a hugely 'problematic' part of the game and I'm surprised Onyx Path and White Wolf haven't been called on it. Perhaps it's because this capability for violence and loss of control is not drawn across gender/racial lines?



Hell ye...



...errr, we apparently have drastically different ideas of what those themes were.

Maybe we do have different ideas on what themes are, but please stop telling me that I'm "playing the game wrong" just because I like to do things differently. I apologize for the Goth-bashing, I admit it's mainly projecting over assholes I have LARP'ed with and internet dickheads like Darren MacLerran and Martin Ericsson. I'll lay off on it.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;919951So, you actually lived the Goth lifestyle at the very height of the subculture? What was it like? Most of my bad experiences with Goths come from old thirty-and-forty-something burnouts I had the misfortune of LARP'ing with from 2010-2012 and jerks on the internet, but you seem kind of cool to be honest.

What was Goth like back then? Before it all crashed and burned. Was there regional differences between subcultures? (I live in Virginia, whereas you seem to have been in California back then)

I ask because I'm a twenty-three year old who wasn't even born when some of this happened and was a small child for most of the 90's (I was born in '93). I wonder what it was like back then. I'm serious.

Well, Punk and New Wave were really big back in the late 70's and early 80's and that kind of mixed and morphed into Goth in SoCal starting right about 1980. The surf kids laid in some laid back lyrics (sublimely expressing their emotions) while distancing themselves from the dysfunctional suburbanite society which featured mass produced cookie-cutter suburbia and this kind of 80's utopian Xanadu vision mixed with exploitative shameless capitalism of the time. The Goths didn't want any part of that. They also changed the tempo of the Punk /New Wave adding some deep intense emotional melodies, and the next thing you know, there's this new music out that really resonates with young people, they can see the dissonance of society, and can also see a place, a place that may be a touch dark, but it's place they can be a part of, without having to compromise their own values.

Some of my friends started a Goth band in Huntington Beach (...To get hot girls of course) and would book gigs at Spatz and Safari Sams, at Bogart's and La Xima. They would go up and play in nightclubs in Long Beach and Garden Grove too, and sometimes roll down to San Diego - After Dark, and watch other bands at nightclubs like Cuckoo's Nest and Old World, or play small dives. They also liked to play in Surf Bars over on the beach for basically drinks and tips. I stayed with my friend Steve for about a month and we hit nightclubs or went to parties just about every night. The Goths weren't all black yet, they played alot of punk, and mixed in some Euro. The Smiths and The Cure were really big time in our small circle, and this was the only part of the country I heard these kinds of bands play. It would be another two to three years before they were mainstream being played on the radio. I can still smell the clove cigarettes everyone smoked in the clubs then, while the dressed up in a kind of modern baroque style. It was only late in the movement when everyone started dressing in all black.

Here's a couple websites that feature the unique music and experiences of the time, that changed and darkened, and became what is known as Goth today. By 1988 it was all dark and extremely moody, however liberating, becuase it was a counter-culture that opposed the banal and boring Eat-Reproduce-Sleep-Work routine that most of society had chosen to chain itself to.

There might be a couple other folks that remember the Late Punk-Early Goth era in SoCal here.

http://weirdotronix.tripod.com/wotxgig1.htm

http://www.corndogs.org/minutemen%2011-15-85.html

The Golden Bear
http://www.latimes.com/local/orangecounty/la-me-1206-hbclub-20141206-story.html

Other clubs that were hot that I heard about

Circle City and 321

Another of the hottest dance clubs, one that was open 24 hours was called The Hop and it was a 50's rockabilly / sockhop (not Goth, but in 1985 this was absolutely awesome!) kind of place owned by the Righteous Brothers (You've lost that lovin' feelin)  It was over in Orange County near MCAS El Toro.

While living in Palm Springs I hung out almost exclusively in a mob-owned nightclub known as Pompei's.

Quote from: GameDaddy;919968Well, Punk and New Wave were really big back in the late 70's and early 80's and that kind of mixed and morphed into Goth in SoCal starting right about 1980. The surf kids laid in some laid back lyrics (sublimely expressing their emotions) while distancing themselves the dysfunctional suburbanite society which featured mass produced suburbia and this kind of 80's utopian Xanadu vision mixed with exploitive shameless capaitalism of the time. They didn't want any part of that. They also changed the tempo of the Punk /New Wave adding some deep intense emotional melodies, and the next thing you know, there's this new music out that really resonates with young people, they can see the dissonance of society, and can also see a place, a place that may be a touch dark, but it's place they can be a part of, without having to compromise their own values.

Some of my friends started a Goth band in Huntington Beach (...To get hot girls of course) and would book gigs at Spatz and Safari Sams, at Bogart's and La Xima. They would go up and play in nightclubs in Long Beach too, and sometimes roll down to San Diego (After Dark) to watch other bands at nightclubs like Cuckoo's Nest and Old World, or play small dives. They also liked to play in Surf Bars over on the beach for basically drinks and tips. I stayed with my friend Steve for about a month and we hit nightclubs or went to parties just about every night. The Goths weren't all black yet, they played alot of punk, and mixed in some Euro. The Smiths and The Cure were really big time in our small circle, and this was the only part of the country I heard these kinds of bands play. It would be another two to three years before they were mainstream being played on the radio. I can still smell the clove cigarettes everyone smoked in the clubs then, while the dressed up in a kind of modern baroque style. It was only late in the movement when everyone started dressing in all black.

Here's a couple websites that feature the unique music and experiences of the time, that changed and darkened, and became what is known as Goth today. By 1988 it was all dark and extremely moody, however liberating, becuase it was a counter-culture that opposed the banal and boring Eat-Reproduce-Sleep-Work routine that most of society had chosen to chain itself to.

There might be a couple other folks that remember the Late Punk-Early Goth era in SoCal here.

http://weirdotronix.tripod.com/wotxgig1.htm

http://www.corndogs.org/minutemen%2011-15-85.html

The Golden Bear
http://www.latimes.com/local/orangecounty/la-me-1206-hbclub-20141206-story.html

Other clubs that were hot that I heard about

Circle City and 321

Another of the hottest dance clubs, one that was open 24 hours was called The Hop and it was a 50's rockabilly / sockhop (not Goth, but in 1985 this was absolutely awesome!) kind of place owned by the Righteous Brothers (You've lost that lovin' feelin)  It was over in Orange County near MCAS El Toro.

Interesting. I will check those webpages out. It's kind of interesting knowing what Goth started out at, especially considering how different things were by the time I was old enough to be actually aware of the subculture.

While I'm not exactly a fan of music like The Smiths or The Cure, that scene you describe sounds like it was fun.