Quote from: PrometheanVigil;917952Your avatar is perfect for the way you phrased that. "This is the Internet. I KNOW you have seen this. Don't fuck with me!" Hah, awesome.

And nah, in this case its baked into the books literally from that GMC book -- Demon further solidified its place -- as canon. Its a shame. They were using it in that new Hunter supplement they did, too, 'cept it was Angels from the other side now (so now we've got godamm Agent Smiths running around...).

The GMC book gives a lot of wiggle room to use it in various ways or ignore it completely.  I haven't seen nDemon but I would bet money it's presented as a possibility to use, change or ignore.  That's how all the other nWoD books have worked.  


If you have been on the internet for more than about five minutes, you have seen people arguing for all sorts of thing with many of them being prima facie bullshit.  Anything can be argued for as we all know it.  There are regular demonstrations of that principle in action right here.

My main issue with the Goth and Punk subcultures is that both subcultures are by their very nature full of mopey, whiny, pretentious malcontents who have really shitty music. That and the horrid direction WoD took during Revised Edition, when the pandering to said subcultures reached an all-time high, what with the metaplot and Justin Achilli's edgelord tendencies.

So please forgive me when you see that I am very bitter because of these subcultures.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;918145My main issue with the Goth and Punk subcultures is that both subcultures are by their very nature full of mopey, whiny, pretentious malcontents who have really shitty music. That and the horrid direction WoD took during Revised Edition, when the pandering to said subcultures reached an all-time high, what with the metaplot and Justin Achilli's edgelord tendencies.

So please forgive me when you see that I am very bitter because of these subcultures.

How did Goths affect Revised Edition?  Nosferatu are still Nosferatu.  Ventrue are still playing power games.  Gangrel are still pretending to be werewolves. Goths generally aren't motivated in changing much, so not a lot of Brujah.  Tremere...just no. The only real love for the Goths as far as vampire society goes mightbe the Toreador.

How did Goths ruin Revised Edition if Revised Edition isn't about Goths?  I get that you have an axe to grind, I don't know what that axe looks like.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;918145My main issue with the Goth and Punk subcultures is that both subcultures are by their very nature full of mopey, whiny, pretentious malcontents who have really shitty music.

Is this born of actual experience in hanging out or participating in these subcultures? I have, in depth, and while I'm never going to say that those kinds of people don't exist there, I certainly wouldn't castigate the entirety of them to *just* those things, anymore than I'd do that to any subculture that doesn't actually stand for those things imlicitly.

As for "shitty music" - different strokes and all that. There is a lot of shitty music in all genres. Somehow I can't help but feel you got some projection going on here.

What does this:

Quote from: Doc Sammy;918145That and the horrid direction WoD took during Revised Edition, when the pandering to said subcultures reached an all-time high, what with the metaplot and Justin Achilli's edgelord tendencies.

Have to do with this:

Quote from: Doc Sammy;918145So please forgive me when you see that I am very bitter because of these subcultures.

Neither of these subcultures created Vampire... but you just wholesale told everyone that indulged in these subcultures that they essentially urinated on the game. As CRKrueger points out - in what way? I found that Revised changed literally *nothing* about how I saw and approached the game. The Goth thing was a frill at best on the more interesting implications of the setting.

Quote from: tenbones;918182Is this born of actual experience in hanging out or participating in these subcultures? I have, in depth, and while I'm never going to say that those kinds of people don't exist there, I certainly wouldn't castigate the entirety of them to *just* those things, anymore than I'd do that to any subculture that doesn't actually stand for those things imlicitly.

As for "shitty music" - different strokes and all that. There is a lot of shitty music in all genres. Somehow I can't help but feel you got some projection going on here.

What does this:


Have to do with this:


Neither of these subcultures created Vampire... but you just wholesale told everyone that indulged in these subcultures that they essentially urinated on the game. As CRKrueger points out - in what way? I found that Revised changed literally *nothing* about how I saw and approached the game. The Goth thing was a frill at best on the more interesting implications of the setting.

I've had bad experiences with self-professed Goths and Punks while participating in a Vampire LARP, so that may have colored my perception of these subcultures.

Maybe I've been too harsh on them. I'm sorry. It's just I don't like being told to play "Some Other Game" or that I'm playing WoD "the wrong way" when people find out that I modify my WoD and its themes.

With Vampire, I think there was a natural fit with the goth/punk aesthetic. For what the game was doing, it made sense to me. I think you can enjoy that and not necessarily embrace the full spectrum of goth culture. Plus, Vampires were just heavily romanticized in the 90s period. It wasn't just goths who were mopey and moody. Pretty much everything in pop culture had that kind of edge to it. The whole point of Vampire was you are running things from the monsters point of view. It is like Interview with the Vampire or the section of Frankenstein where the monster speaks. You are going to naturally get a bit of angsty self reflection there. And I think it worked. We just maybe had too much of it in the 90s.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;918184I've had bad experiences with self-professed Goths and Punks while participating in a Vampire LARP, so that may have colored my perception of these subcultures.

Maybe I've been too harsh on them. I'm sorry. It's just I don't like being told to play "Some Other Game" or that I'm playing WoD "the wrong way" when people find out that I modify my WoD and its themes.

Ok, so the culture turned you off of the game, and the culture that turned you off seemed to increase after Revised.  I can totally buy that.  There's lots of games whose extreme fans or certain type of player make my teeth itch.

Quote from: tenbones;918182As for "shitty music" - different strokes and all that. There is a lot of shitty music in all genres. Somehow I can't help but feel you got some projection going on here.

One of the best things I ever did was stop worrying about musical tribes and just accept good music wherever it happens to come from.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;918184I've had bad experiences with self-professed Goths and Punks while participating in a Vampire LARP, so that may have colored my perception of these subcultures.

Maybe I've been too harsh on them. I'm sorry. It's just I don't like being told to play "Some Other Game" or that I'm playing WoD "the wrong way" when people find out that I modify my WoD and its themes.

Gotcha. Vampire LARP. Yeah... I think that's where the problem really exists. Most people in the Goth and definitely the Punk crowds know dick-all about RPG's and care less about them if they do. Where LARP intersects with these groups... yeah that's the no-go zone for me. The lands of the Trenchcoat Katana Legions mass there.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;918191One of the best things I ever did was stop worrying about musical tribes and just accept good music wherever it happens to come from.

That's some wisdom that transcends music too! Good advice on a lot of things that seems to be lost of many people.

Quote from: tenbones;918192Gotcha. Vampire LARP. Yeah... I think that's where the problem really exists. Most people in the Goth and definitely the Punk crowds know dick-all about RPG's and care less about them if they do. Where LARP intersects with these groups... yeah that's the no-go zone for me. The lands of the Trenchcoat Katana Legions mass there.

But I like trenchcoats and katanas. It's the "deep" and angsty personal horror that I hate.

Quote from: tenbones;917971It works at a very low-end level, but the dice-pool mechanics and the original 1st Ed version had some *big* mechanical issues.

The best fix for oWOD, IMHO, is to ignore the Player's Guides and cap Disciplines at 5 like the back of the book said.  Keeps dice pools and Elders at sane levels.

QuoteLOL like no upper-limit to blood-pool expenditure, you could effectively try to massacre a boatload of homeless people to load up for a fight. (yeah yeah, this never happened in my games, but I've seen/heard people trying to do it).

I suspect this is based on a misunderstanding of the rules.  You can't spend more blood than you have capacity for (10-14), you can't drop below 3 without triggering a Hunger frenzy check, and most Blood Pool expenditures that would help in combat only last a single scene.  It should be obvious that you're in a new scene once the combat starts, unless you can manipulate your enemies into attacking you on your boat.

The rule works very well for that iconic scene where the wounded vampire grabs a random dude, drains him dead, and then resurges into the fight on the power of blood, but I can't see how the scenario you're describing works under RAW.

This may be a silly question, but what was playing Vampire like in the early days of Vampire: The Requiem?

I know it seems silly because 2004 is more recent than 1991 (For example, I was alive in 2004, but I was born after 1991), but remember that I came into the WoD scene in late 2009-early 2010, after Geist had came out and the "classic" First Edition era of nWoD/CofD had more or less completed its run. This was the time when CCP had more or less left White Wolf to die as they worked on a now nonexistent MMO and then in 2011 came the huge surprise of V20 and the revival of oWoD and the birth of Onyx Path.

I want to know what people thought of Requiem when it first came out and how it was played by people back then. I know the majority of WoD fans were butthurt and stuck to Masquerade (I happened to have the misfortune of LARP'ing with some of these butthurt oWoD fans), but I missed out on the closest thing that nWoD had to a heyday when oWoD wasn't supported and White Wolf hadn't been completely gutted by CCP or hijacked by Paradox Interactive.

Before the arrival of Demon: The Descent and the shitty God-Machine pseudo-metaplot, before the abominable Beast: The Primordial, before the Strix became the seemingly sole focus of Requiem. I want to know what New World of Darkness was like before it became Chronicles of Darkness, back when it was still supported by White Wolf.

Should that warrant another thread?

Quote from: Doc Sammy;918184I've had bad experiences with self-professed Goths and Punks while participating in a Vampire LARP, so that may have colored my perception of these subcultures.

Maybe I've been too harsh on them. I'm sorry. It's just I don't like being told to play "Some Other Game" or that I'm playing WoD "the wrong way" when people find out that I modify my WoD and its themes.

Oh honey, if you wanna dish on douche-y, insufferable edgelords from the Goth/Punk + WoD LARP scene I can assure you none will stop you here. We'd probably puppypile (a floppy, uncoordinated frolic of a dogpile) on that fun and have more than a few juicy eyebrow raisers to share. You are far from alone of those who no longer suffer these fools gladly.

But like catpiss man neckbeardos stereotype, the bleeding edge of suckitude is not the median. Many of us can sympathize if they were your first exposure. Just unclench, share, and enjoy a healthy moving on.

Quote from: Opaopajr;918233But like catpiss man neckbeardos stereotype, the bleeding edge of suckitude is not the median. Many of us can sympathize if they were your first exposure. Just unclench, share, and enjoy a healthy moving on.

Fair point. I guess I should really just move on. It's just that type of attitude persists on Onyx Path Forums and complaining about that attitude got me banned from RPG.net (Turns out Darren MacLerran is one of those Goth edgelords)

I like my WoD to be metaplot-free and done in a style often derided as "Superheroes With Fangs". And my playstyle is no less valid than their "Personal Horror" playstyle.