TheRPGSite

OK. I've not been paying attention to the 3rd ed developments for a while, and allusions to "E6" keep popping up on the boards.

What the hell is this?

Here you go. (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=6637)

So... that's basically it. Stop leveling up after level 6 and earn feats for 5,000 XP each.

Quote from: Benoist;445743So... that's basically it. Stop leveling up after level 6 and earn feats for 5,000 XP each.

Yep.  I played in an E8 campaign; it isn't a terribly world shaking, but I liked that it effectively de-emphasized the "build a broken character" minigame that could overwhelm 3e at higher levels.

I could see someone trying something like this with Classic D&D at Name Level (9th level). The idea is already still there, more or less, when you cease to roll further hit dice after 9th level. You're basically cutting off saving throw level progression, turn undead and spells beyond 5th level. You could end up with a very "OD&D" feel that way.

Quote from: Benoist;445763I could see someone trying something like this with Classic D&D at Name Level (9th level). The idea is already still there, more or less, when you cease to roll further hit dice after 9th level. You're basically cutting off saving throw level progression, turn undead and spells beyond 5th level. You could end up with a very "OD&D" feel that way.

That was my feeling as well.

It is a smart take on the 3.x ruleset, and fixes or emolliates a lot of the real and perceived problems with it (mechanical complexity, over-buffing, the dreaded and vastly overblown "caster supremacy" on high levels, overblown powers). If I were to play 3.0 again, I would go this way. So, Benoist, you are right it is not a "big deal" - and that's sort of the point. It is a quick, easy and very elegant way to change the game into something more manageable.

I grew up on the BECMI D&D boxed sets...except as teens we never went beyond the Expert set.  So maybe part of what I like about E6 is nostalgia; it makes 3e feel like the D&D I grew up on.

Quote from: Melan;445777It is a smart take on the 3.x ruleset, and fixes or emolliates a lot of the real and perceived problems with it (mechanical complexity, over-buffing, the dreaded and vastly overblown "caster supremacy" on high levels, overblown powers). If I were to play 3.0 again, I would go this way. So, Benoist, you are right it is not a "big deal" - and that's sort of the point. It is a quick, easy and very elegant way to change the game into something more manageable.

Sure, I didn't mean to say it was unworthy because of its simplicity. If anything I'd applaud the quick fix rather than coming up with pages upon pages of "fixes." I can see how that would work for a lot of people out there. Plus, you can still do so much by the way of feats, it's really a good incentive to keep on playing.

Quote from: misterguignol;445781I grew up on the BECMI D&D boxed sets...except as teens we never went beyond the Expert set.  So maybe part of what I like about E6 is nostalgia; it makes 3e feel like the D&D I grew up on.

We did something like this too, but with only the basic D&D box set (Moldvay or Holmes).  At the time none of us had any AD&D books.  So we just extrapolated all the tables in the basic D&D rulebook.  (We did all the extrapolations linearly, which turned out to be wrong).

Our games probably would have been E3 or E4.

Error by the shortstop.

-clash

I've been running E8 most of my life without really knowing what it was called. I'm running my first real E6 game right now. I love it. It beats the shit out of normal pathfinder. There is talk about raising the amount of XP to 10,000 for feats beyond six, but I probably won't cross that bridge till I get there.

A lot of these were already developed, but I adapted them a lot for my E6 game. I think I have a pretty good list. I also added a number but, fuck it, E6 is just house rules anyway. I'm sure other people make their own.

[/B]

While any E6 game should have a wide selection of feats available, the following fill very important niches in the rules.


Expansive Skill [/B]

Benefit: Upon taking this feat you acquire 4 skill ranks. You may not use these points to raise a skill beyond its maximum.

Special: You may select this feat multiple times.

Skill beyond Your Years

Prerequisite: Level 6
Pick a skill. You may have up to 8 ranks in that skill.


Restoration [/B]

Prerequisites: 6th level, ability to cast 3rd-level divine spells, Wisdom 18, Healing 6 Ranks
Benefit: You can use Restoration, as the spell (paying the material component), with a casting time of 1 hour.

Stone to Flesh

Prerequisites: 6th level, ability to cast 3rd-level arcane spells, Intelligence 18, Craft (Alchemy) 6 Ranks
Benefit: You can use stone to flesh, as the spell, with an expensive and secret magical ingredient with a market value of 1000 gp and a casting time of 1 day.


Defense Skill [/B]

Prerequisite: Character Level 6th, Offensive Skill
Special: Gain a +1 skill bonus to AC.
This feat can only be taken once.

Martial Mastery

Prerequisites: Character Level 6
Benefit: Characters with a BAB of +4 or +5 may consider it +6 or +7, respectively, for the purpose of taking and using feats. Characters with a BAB of +6 may consider it to be +9 for the purpose of taking and using feats.

Offensive Skill

Prerequisite: Character Level 6th
Special: Gain a +1 skill bonus to Strike and Damage.
This feat can only be taken once.


Expanded Knowledge
[/B]
Prerequisite: Character Level 6th
Benefit: Choose a spell casting class in which you have levels. You gain an additional spell known at any level you can cast from that class's spell list. This feat can be taken once per spell level.

Expanded Casting

Prerequisite: Character Level 6th
Benefit: Choose a spellcasting class in which you have levels. You gain an additional spell slot at any level you can already cast. This can be taken once per spell level.


Wondrous Rings [/B]

Prerequisites: 6th level, Craft Wondrous Item
Benefit: You treat rings as wondrous items for the purpose of meeting item creation prerequisites. You must still meet caster level requirements for any ring you create.

[/B]

Ability Training

You spend time honing one of your Abilities: Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma.
Benefit: Choose one Ability; treat that Ability as having a +2 bonus to that Ability Score whenever you are making an Ability Check. This bonus does not count when making a skill check or for any other use of that ability.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times, its effects do not stack. Each time you take this feat it applies to another ability.

Ability Advancement

Your training pays off, and one of your Abilities increases.
Prerequisite: Ability Training in the same ability.
Benefit: Choose one Ability. You gain a permanent +2 bonus to that ability. This bonus does not stack with the benefit from Ability Training.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times, its effects do not stack. Each time you take this feat it applies to another ability.

Barbarian

Barbaric Resilience[/B]

Prerequisite: Barbarian 6
Benefit: You gain DR 2/--

Focus Your Rage

Prerequisite: Barbarian 2
Benefit: You may select an additional Rage Power.

Great Rage

Prerequisite: Barbarian 6
Benefit: Select one Rage Power as if you were level 8.
Special: This feat may be taken twice.

Bard

Bardic Inspiration

Prerequisite: Bard level 6
The bonus granted by your inspire courage and inspire competence abilities increase to +3.

Dirge of Doom

Prerequisite: Bard 6
Benefit: You gain access to the Bard Song ability Dirge of Doom.

Experienced Performer

Prerequisite: Bard 6, Perform (any) 6 ranks
Benefit: You may start a bardic performance as a move action instead of a standard action.

Cleric

Ascendance

Prerequisite: Cleric 6
Benefit: You gain a single domain power as if you were level 8, selected from the domains you already possess.

Extra Domain Power

Prerequisites: Wis 18 +, Cleric level 6, Knowledge (religion) 8 ranks, Skill Focus: Knowledge (religon)
Benefit: You gain the domain power of one additional domain associated with your deity. You may only take this feat once.

Extra Domain Access

Prerequisites: Wis 18 +, Cleric level 6, Knowledge (religion) 8 ranks, Extra Domain Power, Skill Focus: Knowledge (religion)
Benefit: You gain access to the domain spell list of one additional domain associated with your deity. This domain must be the same one as that chosen for the Extra Domain Power feat. You may only take this feat once.

Druid

Mighty Wild Shape

Prerequisite: Druid level 6
A druid can use wild shape to change into a Huge or Diminutive animal, a Medium elemental, or a Small or Medium plant creature. When taking the form of animals, a druid's wild shape now functions as beast shape III. When taking the form of an elemental, the druid's wild shape now functions as elemental body II. When taking the form of a plant creature, the druid's wild shape functions as plant shape I.

Fighter

Master Combatant

Mastery of your craft has increased the effectiveness of your fighter special abilities.
Prerequisite: Fighter 6
Benefit: You acquire Armor Training 2, and your Bravery increases to +3. You may also choose a second group of weapons with which to gain the Weapon Training Bonus, however, your bonus does not increase.

Fighting Style

Prerequisite: BAB +8
Benefit: The fighter develops a new fighting style. Select two feats you already possess which are mutually exclusive - they may be performed together. For example, Vital Strike and Cleave or Disarming Strike and Repositioning Strike are good choices.

Monk

Monk Training

Prerequisite: Monk 6
Benefit: The monk gains +1 to his AC and deals 1d10 damage with his unarmed strikes.

Self Mastery

Prerequisite: Monk 6
Benefit: Your melee attacks are considered Lawful for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Enlightened Body

Prerequisite: Monk 6
Benefit: Your gain the Wholeness of Body Monk ability.

Paladin

Divine Aura

Prerequisite: Paladin 6
Benefit: The paladin gains the Aura of Resolve ability.

Holy Strikes

Prerequisite: Paladin 6
Benefit: Your melee attacks are considered Good and Magical for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Ranger

Extra Favored Terrain

Prerequisite: Ranger 3
Benefit: You may select a second Favored Terrain, but your terrain bonuses do not improve.

Step of the Wild Lands

Prerequisite: Ranger 6, Survival 6 ranks
Benefit: You gain the Woodland Stride, Swift Tracker and Camouflage class abilities.

Rogue

Roguish Ability

Prerequisite: Rogue 6
Benefit: You learn one rogue advanced talent.
Special: This feat may be taken twice.

Rogue Talent

Prerequisite: Rogue 2
Benefit: You learn one Rogue Talent of your choice.

Sorcerer

Awakened Bloodline

Prerequisite: Sorcerer 6
Benefit: You gain your bloodline's bonus 3rd level spell, and its 9th level granted bloodline power.

Wizard

School Specialist

Prerequisite: Wizard 6, Knowledge (Arcana) 6 ranks
Benefit: You gain the eighth level specialist power from your chosen school. If you have chosen the Abjuration School, you instead increase your Resistance ability from 5 to 10.

Martial Arts Mastery

Pounce

Prerequisite: BAB +8
Benefit: The fighter may make a full attack after making a charge. Only the first attack benefits from the charge.

Honorable Charge

 Prerequisite: BAB +8, Vital Strike
Benefit: Increase the multiplier of vital strike by 1.

Blind Master

Prerequisite: BAB +8, Blind Fighting, Iron Will, Improved Iron Will
Benefit: The fighter gains blind sight 20'. If the fighter is using his normal vision, he is still subject to penalties caused by sudden blinding, needing a full found to adjust. Deafening attacks will make the use of this power impossible.

Mantra

Prerequisite: Character level 6, Iron Will, Improved Iron Will, Skill Focus – Knowledge Religion
Benefit: The character gains an SR of 10 + Wisdom Modifier + ½ Character level vs. compulsion effects.

Quote from: Cranewings;445833

Removing Status Effects

Restoration [/B]

Prerequisites: 6th level, ability to cast 3rd-level divine spells, Wisdom 18, Healing 6 Ranks
Benefit: You can use Restoration, as the spell (paying the material component), with a casting time of 1 hour.

Stone to Flesh

Prerequisites: 6th level, ability to cast 3rd-level arcane spells, Intelligence 18, Craft (Alchemy) 6 Ranks
Benefit: You can use stone to flesh, as the spell, with an expensive and secret magical ingredient with a market value of 1000 gp and a casting time of 1 day.

Wow, I really like the idea of making higher-level spells like this into ritual-style feats.

Yeah, you can really put crazy restrictions on them and you know players and NPCs alike will still want to use some of them.

I'd still be REALLY careful about what you let in their though. For example, I wouldn't let anyone have a Minor Globe of Invulnerability in an E6 game without a great reason, and without some way around it.

Back when I was toying with E6 (never got to do much with it) I realized that some long-derided feats stand to gain from it. For example, Toughness suddenly becomes interesting. 30 extra hit points from a level-6 base isn't a clearly stupid use of 10 epic feats, that's for sure.

Yeah... this seems kind of pointless to me.

RPGPundit

If it is a hit it means I have sunk your battleship.

Good stuff Cranewings.

E6 is good stuff. You can set it to E whatever and thus cut out what you don't enjoy in the D&D game.

The sweet spot for D&D for me was always level four to level ten.

I never cared much for play beyond level twelve at any rate.

E6 is a useful tool for those that want a specific level range for their game, but also want to have some sense of advancement beyond that set range without going too crazy.

I think it would work great for Pathfinder or any other d20 variant as well.

If someone doesn't see the point in an E6, then they probably never had an issue with upper level magic bloat/balance or they probably happen to enjoy the elements/tropes of level 13+ D&D.

Quote from: flyingmice;445794Error by the shortstop.

-clash

That was bad. I'll let you slide because it's baseball season. :D

Quote from: Benoist;445743So... that's basically it. Stop leveling up after level 6 and earn feats for 5,000 XP each.

Pretty much, but as others have noted it's pretty effective.

One of these days I'll finish writing up the Alexandrian post where I talk about the fact that the "6" isn't a magical number here. This is really just a technique for locking in the range of D&D you enjoy playing. Combined with setting the level new PCs should be rolled up at, you can pretty much lock in whatever "sweet spot" works for you and play there perpetually.

I've known about 'E6' for a few years now, but I've never learned what the 'E' is supposed to stand for.  Anyone know?  Thanks.

Quote from: Akrasia;446125I've known about 'E6' for a few years now, but I've never learned what the 'E' is supposed to stand for.  Anyone know?  Thanks.

I believe it is supposed to stand for "Epic."

Quote from: Akrasia;446125I've known about 'E6' for a few years now, but I've never learned what the 'E' is supposed to stand for.  Anyone know?  Thanks.

What is missing is 'M' and 'H'.

It's a good idea for the reasons that Justin Alexander said.  

An approach with a similar goal is to mess with the XP chart, such as the next level requires current level squared times 1,000 more xp:

1 0
2 1,000
3 5,000
4 14,000
5 30,000
6 55,000
7 91,000
8 140,000
9 204,000

This requires no special rules but makes high levels rare, like AD&D without the linear later levels and without some of the irregularities in some of the classes.  Or you could have it discontinuous, with normal advancement until a certain spot, then really slow advancement.  Just play with a rule until you get a result you like.  

Along the lines of the stone to flesh feat above, you can add in the ritual rules from D20 Modern (or whatever they were called) for certain spells and to create moderate level magic items where each spell requires complicated casting conditions.

1) Pun pun is a 5th level character. I'd be happy to play him in any E6 game.

2) I find most of what people want from E6 is better handled by switching to another system like BRP or OD&D or Earthdawn, instead of rejigging 3.x.

I was actually going to do something similar for a 4e Essentials game.

Level cap of 14.  

I was vetoed as it wasn't epic enough.

Considering my Rogue Archer was doing on average 2d6+D8+10 damage, more if bloodied or unadjacent to an ally model at THIRD LEVEL I am not sure how fucking epic they wanted it.

Rifts or JRPG level of numbers I guess.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;4461531) Pun pun is a 5th level character. I'd be happy to play him in any E6 game.

People say that all the time, but I just don't see it. I think D&D was practically made to be played this way. When I want to play stronger characters, I play other systems.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;4461531) Pun pun is a 5th level character. I'd be happy to play him in any E6 game.

Pun Pun is almost as legitimate a player character as Roberto the Roaming Rapist. After all, you might find a DM who would allow him. :teehee:

If I wanted to play something self-limiting, I would never have taken up D&D.

Quote from: Settembrini;446246If I wanted to play something self-limiting, I would never have taken up D&D.

Pretty much. Most campaigns usually don't run long enough to get to really high levels anyway but when they do its fun to manage a stronghold and deal with issues besides the next big bad monster.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;4461532) I find most of what people want from E6 is better handled by switching to another system like BRP or OD&D or Earthdawn, instead of rejigging 3.x.

Definitely.

My preference would be to use the Moldvay B/X D&D box sets.  (IIRC, the expert box set only goes up to level 14).

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;4461532) I find most of what people want from E6 is better handled by switching to another system like BRP or OD&D or Earthdawn, instead of rejigging 3.x.

 
Sometimes.  Sometimes not.  Some people have sampled many systems yet still like D&D.  The issue with D&D is that the tone changes drastically over the full range of levels.  Why not stick with the level/tone that you like?

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;4461532) I find most of what people want from E6 is better handled by switching to another system like BRP or OD&D or Earthdawn, instead of rejigging 3.x.

Sometimes. Sometimes not. Some people have sampled many systems yet still like D&D. The issue with D&D is that the tone changes drastically over the full range of levels. Why not stick with the level/tone that you like?
 
 

Quote from: Exploderwizard;446252Pretty much. Most campaigns usually don't run long enough to get to really high levels anyway but when they do its fun to manage a stronghold and deal with issues besides the next big bad monster.

You can do that with E6. It isn't AD&D where you aren't allowed to until 9th level and then it magically becomes imperative. With E6, a 6th level dude is as tough as anybody else. It's just that they can't wipe out countries like a 20th level character. If anything, banding together groups of soldiers makes more sense when there are no uber characters to take care of things.

Quote from: Settembrini;446246If I wanted to play something self-limiting, I would never have taken up D&D.

Well, I took up D&D, like many folk, in a different phase of my life.  Also, when I started playing it, like most beginners, I was oblivious to the subtler nuances of the game.
And I changed.

I left D&D a long time ago...but many of the reasons I did so are the same reasons E6 was developed.  Fundamentally, To change the growth curve.  It's funny, many of the houserules I was using to bridge the gap involved trying to maintain the reinforcement of getting more powerful while slowing it down.

I almost suggested something similar to E6 for classic D&D, in response to a question on another board (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?p=13622320) which was basically about maintaining a certain "sweet spot". I gave up on my off-the-cuff idea, though, when I decided that limiting hit point progression without rejiggering damage from high-level spells could create problems.

(I see that with E6 the solution is basically not to have high-level spells. I think it might be better to make them harder to cast. Sort of an equivalent limitation to paying 5000 XP for a single use of the spell, although presenting it as bare mechanics is very unsatisfying.)

An argument that no one has mentioned is that it's said to emulate fantasy better ('Gandalf is a fifth-level magic-user' and so on).

Quote from: Age of Fable;446271An argument that no one has mentioned is that it's said to emulate fantasy better ('Gandalf is a fifth-level magic-user' and so on).

Absolutely.

It still takes a little discipline from the gm. You can't make a bunch of 8th level guys to fight. One or two ever is ok though.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;446267I almost suggested something similar to E6 for classic D&D, in response to a question on another board (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?p=13622320) which was basically about maintaining a certain "sweet spot". I gave up on my off-the-cuff idea, though, when I decided that limiting hit point progression without rejiggering damage from high-level spells could create problems.

(I see that with E6 the solution is basically not to have high-level spells. I think it might be better to make them harder to cast. Sort of an equivalent limitation to paying 5000 XP for a single use of the spell, although presenting it as bare mechanics is very unsatisfying.)

I let characters learn 4th level spells as feats. They can cast them as day long rituals from certain magical places.

Quote from: Nicephorus;446261Sometimes. Sometimes not. Some people have sampled many systems yet still like D&D. The issue with D&D is that the tone changes drastically over the full range of levels. Why not stick with the level/tone that you like?

My problem with D&D and low levels of HP stems from the lack of active defence. I don't claim it's more than a personal preference, but it kind of grinds my teeth how little one is able to do to preserve the limited number of HP one has at low levels.

At high levels, you start getting DR and SR, and immunities, and lots of HP, which ameliorates the problem somewhat. These options are not present in E6. As well, if you use monsters of CR higher than 6 (as I expect most E6 DMs would eventually), monster HP, DR, SR and immunities do increase, which means the PCs have little chance of ever getting the abilities they require to deal enough damage to ancient red dragons, etc.

In BRP, one can parry, dodge, magically buff one's self, wear armour, etc. and monsters have similar amounts of HP to PCs for the most part. In OD&D, monster-avoidance is a key element of play, so I don't object to extreme deadliness.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;446350At high levels, you start getting DR and SR, and immunities, and lots of HP, which ameliorates the problem somewhat. These options are not present in E6. As well, if you use monsters of CR higher than 6 (as I expect most E6 DMs would eventually), monster HP, DR, SR and immunities do increase, which means the PCs have little chance of ever getting the abilities they require to deal enough damage to ancient red dragons, etc.

It does, however, encourage the players to seek out a solution to a rampaging dragon that doesn't involve fighting it head-on.  Which is kinda cool on its own.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;446350My problem with D&D and low levels of HP stems from the lack of active defence. I don't claim it's more than a personal preference, but it kind of grinds my teeth how little one is able to do to preserve the limited number of HP one has at low levels.

Years ago, when I was running all sorts of BRP and active defense games (starting with L'Oeil Noir -Dark Eye-, followed by Stormbringer, Hawkmoon, RuneQuest and Call of Cthulhu, among others), I shared that feeling. That bothered me immensely about D&D. That changed when I realized that the gestion of defense is basically different, that it isn't a matter of rolling a parry, but a matter of movement, positioning, and other tactical options available to player characters in either format.

Back when I ran Arcana Evolved, I tried implementing a defense roll, basically rolling 1d20 instead of having a flat 10 + modifiers AC rating, with flat-footed etc ACs remaining flat numbers themselves. I soon found out that it was too much fiddliness for my and my players' tastes. It basically took away from the tactical emphasis (because regardless of your positioning, your attacker AND yourself could still crit or fumble), adding another layer of dice rolls and complexity to the rules (by the way of defense-dedicated feats I devised) that didn't add anything significant to the game's enjoyment.

Mileages will vary, obviously.

I wouldn't use monsters of higher level than appropriate for the campaign. Implicitly, if you're capping level progression, I'd think you're stating a specific setting power-level. Some monsters would basically become army-killers and appropriate in that role. If you have access to high-level magic (per suggestions above), then those are possible counters.

The thing about D&D (which frankly is something that I did not enjoy about the game when I played it) is that increasing the complexity of the game as you go up levels is largely achieved by increasing the power level of monsters. What E6 seems to be encouraging is to not follow this spiral, but instead to increase challenges and their complexity by multiplying them. Fighting a dozen (or however many) men isn't linearly more difficult/complex than fighting a single man, due to maneuver, terrain, morale, and the fact that the "threat" is broken down into discretely-killable units. About the latter, "overkill" damage is wasted, but area effects have a high utility, and as the "threat" is damaged, its ability to harm you decreases--unlike a D&D monster, which is all-or-nothing (little or no death spiral).

As a semi-compromise, I'd also consider continuing to track "levels" based on cumulative XP gained, but only give +1 HP per level in addition to whatever people spend their XP on.

Quote from: Benoist;446354Years ago, when I was running all sorts of BRP and active defense games (starting with L'Oeil Noir -Dark Eye-, followed by Stormbringer, Hawkmoon, RuneQuest and Call of Cthulhu, among others), I shared that feeling. That bothered me immensely about D&D. That changed when I realized that the gestion of defense is basically different, that it isn't a matter of rolling a parry, but a matter of movement, positioning, and other tactical options available to player characters in either format.

Back when I ran Arcana Evolved, I tried implementing a defense roll, basically rolling 1d20 instead of having a flat 10 + modifiers AC rating, with flat-footed etc ACs remaining flat numbers themselves. I soon found out that it was too much fiddliness for my and my players' tastes. It basically took away from the tactical emphasis (because regardless of your positioning, your attacker AND yourself could still crit or fumble), adding another layer of dice rolls and complexity to the rules (by the way of defense-dedicated feats I devised) that didn't add anything significant to the game's enjoyment.

Mileages will vary, obviously.

Our group sometimes disliked the static AC number, but more disliked the idea that your defense stayed the same as you level. I tried to explain that HP is abstract and that losing 10 HP from 60 didn't constitute an injury because the character is so good at defense.

That explanation of HP never flew because in play you are hit, take damage, and need a cleric to heal you.

One of the house rules I made to fix this feeling was to take the expected bonuses to AC you get from magic items and apply it as a bonus as you go up in level. Along with some changes to how and when you gain back HP, it made the whole thing a lot more emulative.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;446350My problem with D&D and low levels of HP stems from the lack of active defence. I don't claim it's more than a personal preference, but it kind of grinds my teeth how little one is able to do to preserve the limited number of HP one has at low levels.

At high levels, you start getting DR and SR, and immunities, and lots of HP, which ameliorates the problem somewhat. These options are not present in E6. As well, if you use monsters of CR higher than 6 (as I expect most E6 DMs would eventually), monster HP, DR, SR and immunities do increase, which means the PCs have little chance of ever getting the abilities they require to deal enough damage to ancient red dragons, etc.

In BRP, one can parry, dodge, magically buff one's self, wear armour, etc. and monsters have similar amounts of HP to PCs for the most part. In OD&D, monster-avoidance is a key element of play, so I don't object to extreme deadliness.

You can always redefine what an Ancient Dragon is. I consider CR 10 - 11 dragons to be the most powerful in my game world. A party of 6th level characters can kill a CR 11 dragon if they can keep it from flying, and there are enough of them.

Quote from: Cranewings;446443That explanation of HP never flew because in play you are hit, take damage, and need a cleric to heal you.

I was thinking of making Hit Points entirely luck, except for blows that kill or render unconscious. Then if a cleric cast a healing spell, what would be happening in-game is that the player had a near-miss, and concluded that they'd displeased the gods, requiring the cleric to pray on their behalf. It would mean that clerics were acting at least a bit more like real priests.

However there are a few problems with this, like why does CON effect Hit Points (and if it doesn't, what does it do), and why do Fighters have more Hit Points (and if they don't, what do they have instead).

Quote from: Age of Fable;446478I was thinking of making Hit Points entirely luck, except for blows that kill or render unconscious. Then if a cleric cast a healing spell, what would be happening in-game is that the player had a near-miss, and concluded that they'd displeased the gods, requiring the cleric to pray on their behalf. It would mean that clerics were acting at least a bit more like real priests.

However there are a few problems with this, like why does CON effect Hit Points (and if it doesn't, what does it do), and why do Fighters have more Hit Points (and if they don't, what do they have instead).

In my S&W WB game, I treat them as a combination of fortitude,  luck, stamina and skill.
One (http://themetalearth.blogspot.com/2010/03/badasses-and-hit-point-heresy.html), two (http://themetalearth.blogspot.com/2010/08/way-of-gun-ranged-weapons-missiles_15.html), three (http://themetalearth.blogspot.com/2010/09/1d4-wound-and-critical-hit-table.html).

Thanks, I'll check it out.

Quote from: Age of Fable;446478I was thinking of making Hit Points entirely luck, except for blows that kill or render unconscious. Then if a cleric cast a healing spell, what would be happening in-game is that the player had a near-miss, and concluded that they'd displeased the gods, requiring the cleric to pray on their behalf. It would mean that clerics were acting at least a bit more like real priests.

However there are a few problems with this, like why does CON effect Hit Points (and if it doesn't, what does it do), and why do Fighters have more Hit Points (and if they don't, what do they have instead).

In my house rules, all of your hitpoints refresh at the end of every fight, unless they get too low. Basically, your first level hp is your meat and all the rest of the HP you gain, which we call defense points, is luck, skill, and divine favor. If you survive a fight with any defense left, you are unharmed and can go on. If you go into your first level points, you gained the injured trait, which is a -2 to all rolls and you can only perform partial actions.

This system actually makes fighting mobs of weaklings easier, because they can't wear you down, though it makes fighting bosses harder because of the high chance of being injured.

Now, if you are wounded in a fight, you don't automatically regain your defense until you are fully healed, either on your own or by magic. Because healing per day scales with level, a high level character will recover from "the same wound" in about as much time as a lower level character.

The only hole in the logic is the fact that clerics have a harder time healing high level characters - to this I say that the gods are envious of high level player characters and find their hubris distasteful. They require more important clerics to pray harder for you, or more people to heal you, because they aren't comfortable with what you are becoming.

Quote from: Cranewings;446493In my house rules, all of your hitpoints refresh at the end of every fight, unless they get too low. Basically, your first level hp is your meat and all the rest of the HP you gain, which we call defense points, is luck, skill, and divine favor. If you survive a fight with any defense left, you are unharmed and can go on. If you go into your first level points, you gained the injured trait, which is a -2 to all rolls and you can only perform partial actions.

This system actually makes fighting mobs of weaklings easier, because they can't wear you down, though it makes fighting bosses harder because of the high chance of being injured.

Now, if you are wounded in a fight, you don't automatically regain your defense until you are fully healed, either on your own or by magic. Because healing per day scales with level, a high level character will recover from "the same wound" in about as much time as a lower level character.

The only hole in the logic is the fact that clerics have a harder time healing high level characters - to this I say that the gods are envious of high level player characters and find their hubris distasteful. They require more important clerics to pray harder for you, or more people to heal you, because they aren't comfortable with what you are becoming.

Not saying I like all the solutions, but I love that you have the rationale for the rules, the setting specific logic taken care of.  Nice.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;446153I find most of what people want from E6 is better handled by switching to another system like BRP or OD&D or Earthdawn, instead of rejigging 3.x.

Quote from: Settembrini;446246If I wanted to play something self-limiting, I would never have taken up D&D.

These posts more or less echo my feelings on the subject.

If I want a power-level limited game, D&D would not be my game of choice.

My way of maintaining the sweet spot in older editions of D&D would be to start PCs at level 2 or 3 instead of level 1, and end the campaign once level X is reached.  If you play a pre-3e version, this could easily still give you years of play (given the very slow XP progression the game used to have).  For 3e, this could work, but you progress a lot faster; I'd probably increase the XP table a bit to make it slower.

Granted, I'm not a huge fan of the "endless campaign" model as I find the concept incredibly dull.  I'd rather switch campaigns more and explore different settings and themes than keep rehasing the same, tired premise (much like how I prefer TV shows that end themselves while they are still good instead of waiting until they've ran out of good stories and all life has drained out of the show).

Quote from: LordVreeg;446565Not saying I like all the solutions, but I love that you have the rationale for the rules, the setting specific logic taken care of.  Nice.

Thanks.

You know, that's the nicest thing anyone has ever said about my house rules.

I made them up one day and put them on my players, and they ate it up. When I bring it up online, people range from indifferent to really offended. It is weird.

I too, would really say that you're better served by something other than D&D, if what you want is eternally low-level play.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;447100I too, would really say that you're better served by something other than D&D, if what you want is eternally low-level play.

RPGPundit

So why can't someone take a system they like and optimize it for their own play preferences? How are they better served by picking something else, if they have an easy workable solution that meets their needs?

For all the naysayers about E6, I'm asking that as a serious question. How are they better served by choosing something else, if E6 gives them what they want with their D&D experience?

Quote from: RPGPundit;447100I too, would really say that you're better served by something other than D&D, if what you want is eternally low-level play.

RPGPundit

It isn't low power play though. First through sixth level Pathfinder / 3.5 is very, very high powered: something you only get with high level play in a lot of games. It SEEMS dwarfed by the sheer craziness of the power level of other things in the book, but it isn't actually low power.

Here is an example: Heroes Unlimited. A lot of people think of it as a high powered game. Compared to E6, it isn't. In Heroes Unlimited, imagine fighting half a dozen marines. All first level, making +3 Aimed Shots, +1 Burst. You have a -4 to dodge automatic weapons. Even if you get to them, they each have 1d4x10 SDC + a few physical skills, probably wrestling, body building, climbing, running, and boxing. Your energy projection does a half dozen d6. It is a hard fight. Depending on your build, even for some combat types, this is a hard fight.

In Pathfinder, SMASHING outright a full dozen first level fighters is a walk in the park for a 5th level character. Similarly, compare the effect of a 5d6 lightning bolt or fire ball on normal people compared to Major Energy Projection. Even normal people in Heroes Unlimited have 10 SDC, 10 HP, and can endure some negative health.

So when I say I want to play low level Pathfinder, that isn't the same thing as saying I want a low power game. I just don't want the stupid high powered game that is high level Pathfinder.

Quote from: PaladinCA;447105So why can't someone take a system they like and optimize it for their own play preferences? How are they better served by picking something else, if they have an easy workable solution that meets their needs?

For all the naysayers about E6, I'm asking that as a serious question. How are they better served by choosing something else, if E6 gives them what they want with their D&D experience?

I agree. I don't really understand that reaction either. If E(X) players and DM like it that way, I don't know why they would go through the trouble of entirely shifting game systems when they are familiar with that one. If a quick hack gets you what you want to play, why not play it?

If Gandalf is a 5th-level wizard, then 5th level isn't low level.

Quote from: Age of Fable;447153If Gandalf is a 5th-level wizard, then 5th level isn't low level.

It really isn't. A fifth level wizard can wave his hand and completely obliterate a couple dozen Spartans. I don't know why anyone would see that as "low level."

One reason I like E6 is that it scales better for me than the regular D&D game.

This is certainly a subjective taste. I happen to like less of a gap between zero and mega hero. Once a PC gets beyond level twelve, they are pretty much Godlike. That's cool if you like that sort of scale, but it has never worked well for me in actual play.

Quote from: Cranewings;447108It isn't low power play though. First through sixth level Pathfinder / 3.5 is very, very high powered: something you only get with high level play in a lot of games. It SEEMS dwarfed by the sheer craziness of the power level of other things in the book, but it isn't actually low power.

Here is an example: Heroes Unlimited. A lot of people think of it as a high powered game. Compared to E6, it isn't. In Heroes Unlimited, imagine fighting half a dozen marines. All first level, making +3 Aimed Shots, +1 Burst. You have a -4 to dodge automatic weapons. Even if you get to them, they each have 1d4x10 SDC + a few physical skills, probably wrestling, body building, climbing, running, and boxing. Your energy projection does a half dozen d6. It is a hard fight. Depending on your build, even for some combat types, this is a hard fight.

In Pathfinder, SMASHING outright a full dozen first level fighters is a walk in the park for a 5th level character. Similarly, compare the effect of a 5d6 lightning bolt or fire ball on normal people compared to Major Energy Projection. Even normal people in Heroes Unlimited have 10 SDC, 10 HP, and can endure some negative health.

So when I say I want to play low level Pathfinder, that isn't the same thing as saying I want a low power game. I just don't want the stupid high powered game that is high level Pathfinder.

You make a good argument, particularly for pathfinder/3e. I kind of forgot that we were talking about that and not normal D&D.

RPGPundit

Even in normal D&D, 6th level is not weak.  The typical Fighter has negative AC and 6 attacks/round vs normal men, he can kill dozens.  The typical Magic-User can throw a fireball and wipe out a platoon, then do it again - or dozens of times if he has a Wand of Fire.  The 6th level Cleric has similarly powerful magics, but is a bit weaker.  The 6th level Thief is admittedly not very impressive.

Anyway, the point is that 6th level in any edition of D&D is vastly more powerful than the top of the range in even quite high-powered games (eg d6 Star Wars), never mind the low-power ones like Runequest.  In 1e-2e AD&D the power curve levels out a few levels later for most classes, while M-US get godlike powers but still only have 25 hit points.  In 3e though power keeps doubling every 2 levels.

I ran my first 3e campaign to ca level 17 and the last 5-7 levels were not so much fun.  Since then I've ended two 3.5e campaigns at 8th, which felt much better.  I'm pretty sure I'll use E10 or similar setups for future 3e/Pathfinder games, capping PCs & NPCs at 10th and monsters at around CR 14.  That or E12 gives a power range similar to OD&D, which had spells only to 6th level.

Edit: And I've also been thinking about using the Pathfinder Basic set box when it comes out to run a campaign capped at 5th level, the highest in the box.

S'mon, I think you should try E6 once. The accumulation of feats post sixth level lets the characters really play at about 8th level of power or sometimes higher. I've heard that a lot of people who try E8 end up being irritated by the fact that things still felt out of hand at the top. I'm kind of like you. I've ended two games in a row now at 8th, though it still seemed to high to me.

I'm looking forward to this game.

Quote from: Cranewings;447334S'mon, I think you should try E6 once. The accumulation of feats post sixth level lets the characters really play at about 8th level of power or sometimes higher. I've heard that a lot of people who try E8 end up being irritated by the fact that things still felt out of hand at the top. I'm kind of like you. I've ended two games in a row now at 8th, though it still seemed to high to me.

I'm looking forward to this game.

Thanks Cranewings - I definitely think that if Pathfinder Basic turns out good I'll use it for my next "3e" game, as an E5 campaign - PCs & NPCs cap at 5th and the biggest baddest monsters (giants, dragons, demons) cap around CR 10, but are very rare.  I'm thinking 10 hit dice, adult red dragons and Balors/Type VI demons, that sort of thing.  Probably use my 1e Monster Manual as a starting point & convert up to 3e standard, rather than try to tone down the 3e/Pathfinder stats.

Re E8 - playing 3e, I agree the game often feels like it's already breaking down at 7th level once some of the level 4 3e Wizard/Cleric/Druid spells come in.  Prying Eyes already negates the utility of having a Rogue, for instance.  E5 or E6 brings in the 'fun' stuff like fireball & fly, but not the game-ruining stuff.

Absolutely.