Quote from: Cranewings;446443That explanation of HP never flew because in play you are hit, take damage, and need a cleric to heal you.

I was thinking of making Hit Points entirely luck, except for blows that kill or render unconscious. Then if a cleric cast a healing spell, what would be happening in-game is that the player had a near-miss, and concluded that they'd displeased the gods, requiring the cleric to pray on their behalf. It would mean that clerics were acting at least a bit more like real priests.

However there are a few problems with this, like why does CON effect Hit Points (and if it doesn't, what does it do), and why do Fighters have more Hit Points (and if they don't, what do they have instead).

Quote from: Age of Fable;446478I was thinking of making Hit Points entirely luck, except for blows that kill or render unconscious. Then if a cleric cast a healing spell, what would be happening in-game is that the player had a near-miss, and concluded that they'd displeased the gods, requiring the cleric to pray on their behalf. It would mean that clerics were acting at least a bit more like real priests.

However there are a few problems with this, like why does CON effect Hit Points (and if it doesn't, what does it do), and why do Fighters have more Hit Points (and if they don't, what do they have instead).

In my S&W WB game, I treat them as a combination of fortitude,  luck, stamina and skill.
One, two, three.

Thanks, I'll check it out.

Quote from: Age of Fable;446478I was thinking of making Hit Points entirely luck, except for blows that kill or render unconscious. Then if a cleric cast a healing spell, what would be happening in-game is that the player had a near-miss, and concluded that they'd displeased the gods, requiring the cleric to pray on their behalf. It would mean that clerics were acting at least a bit more like real priests.

However there are a few problems with this, like why does CON effect Hit Points (and if it doesn't, what does it do), and why do Fighters have more Hit Points (and if they don't, what do they have instead).

In my house rules, all of your hitpoints refresh at the end of every fight, unless they get too low. Basically, your first level hp is your meat and all the rest of the HP you gain, which we call defense points, is luck, skill, and divine favor. If you survive a fight with any defense left, you are unharmed and can go on. If you go into your first level points, you gained the injured trait, which is a -2 to all rolls and you can only perform partial actions.

This system actually makes fighting mobs of weaklings easier, because they can't wear you down, though it makes fighting bosses harder because of the high chance of being injured.

Now, if you are wounded in a fight, you don't automatically regain your defense until you are fully healed, either on your own or by magic. Because healing per day scales with level, a high level character will recover from "the same wound" in about as much time as a lower level character.

The only hole in the logic is the fact that clerics have a harder time healing high level characters - to this I say that the gods are envious of high level player characters and find their hubris distasteful. They require more important clerics to pray harder for you, or more people to heal you, because they aren't comfortable with what you are becoming.

Quote from: Cranewings;446493In my house rules, all of your hitpoints refresh at the end of every fight, unless they get too low. Basically, your first level hp is your meat and all the rest of the HP you gain, which we call defense points, is luck, skill, and divine favor. If you survive a fight with any defense left, you are unharmed and can go on. If you go into your first level points, you gained the injured trait, which is a -2 to all rolls and you can only perform partial actions.

This system actually makes fighting mobs of weaklings easier, because they can't wear you down, though it makes fighting bosses harder because of the high chance of being injured.

Now, if you are wounded in a fight, you don't automatically regain your defense until you are fully healed, either on your own or by magic. Because healing per day scales with level, a high level character will recover from "the same wound" in about as much time as a lower level character.

The only hole in the logic is the fact that clerics have a harder time healing high level characters - to this I say that the gods are envious of high level player characters and find their hubris distasteful. They require more important clerics to pray harder for you, or more people to heal you, because they aren't comfortable with what you are becoming.

Not saying I like all the solutions, but I love that you have the rationale for the rules, the setting specific logic taken care of.  Nice.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;446153I find most of what people want from E6 is better handled by switching to another system like BRP or OD&D or Earthdawn, instead of rejigging 3.x.

Quote from: Settembrini;446246If I wanted to play something self-limiting, I would never have taken up D&D.

These posts more or less echo my feelings on the subject.

If I want a power-level limited game, D&D would not be my game of choice.

My way of maintaining the sweet spot in older editions of D&D would be to start PCs at level 2 or 3 instead of level 1, and end the campaign once level X is reached.  If you play a pre-3e version, this could easily still give you years of play (given the very slow XP progression the game used to have).  For 3e, this could work, but you progress a lot faster; I'd probably increase the XP table a bit to make it slower.

Granted, I'm not a huge fan of the "endless campaign" model as I find the concept incredibly dull.  I'd rather switch campaigns more and explore different settings and themes than keep rehasing the same, tired premise (much like how I prefer TV shows that end themselves while they are still good instead of waiting until they've ran out of good stories and all life has drained out of the show).

Quote from: LordVreeg;446565Not saying I like all the solutions, but I love that you have the rationale for the rules, the setting specific logic taken care of.  Nice.

Thanks.

You know, that's the nicest thing anyone has ever said about my house rules.

I made them up one day and put them on my players, and they ate it up. When I bring it up online, people range from indifferent to really offended. It is weird.

I too, would really say that you're better served by something other than D&D, if what you want is eternally low-level play.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;447100I too, would really say that you're better served by something other than D&D, if what you want is eternally low-level play.

RPGPundit

So why can't someone take a system they like and optimize it for their own play preferences? How are they better served by picking something else, if they have an easy workable solution that meets their needs?

For all the naysayers about E6, I'm asking that as a serious question. How are they better served by choosing something else, if E6 gives them what they want with their D&D experience?

Quote from: RPGPundit;447100I too, would really say that you're better served by something other than D&D, if what you want is eternally low-level play.

RPGPundit

It isn't low power play though. First through sixth level Pathfinder / 3.5 is very, very high powered: something you only get with high level play in a lot of games. It SEEMS dwarfed by the sheer craziness of the power level of other things in the book, but it isn't actually low power.

Here is an example: Heroes Unlimited. A lot of people think of it as a high powered game. Compared to E6, it isn't. In Heroes Unlimited, imagine fighting half a dozen marines. All first level, making +3 Aimed Shots, +1 Burst. You have a -4 to dodge automatic weapons. Even if you get to them, they each have 1d4x10 SDC + a few physical skills, probably wrestling, body building, climbing, running, and boxing. Your energy projection does a half dozen d6. It is a hard fight. Depending on your build, even for some combat types, this is a hard fight.

In Pathfinder, SMASHING outright a full dozen first level fighters is a walk in the park for a 5th level character. Similarly, compare the effect of a 5d6 lightning bolt or fire ball on normal people compared to Major Energy Projection. Even normal people in Heroes Unlimited have 10 SDC, 10 HP, and can endure some negative health.

So when I say I want to play low level Pathfinder, that isn't the same thing as saying I want a low power game. I just don't want the stupid high powered game that is high level Pathfinder.

Quote from: PaladinCA;447105So why can't someone take a system they like and optimize it for their own play preferences? How are they better served by picking something else, if they have an easy workable solution that meets their needs?

For all the naysayers about E6, I'm asking that as a serious question. How are they better served by choosing something else, if E6 gives them what they want with their D&D experience?

I agree. I don't really understand that reaction either. If E(X) players and DM like it that way, I don't know why they would go through the trouble of entirely shifting game systems when they are familiar with that one. If a quick hack gets you what you want to play, why not play it?

If Gandalf is a 5th-level wizard, then 5th level isn't low level.

Quote from: Age of Fable;447153If Gandalf is a 5th-level wizard, then 5th level isn't low level.

It really isn't. A fifth level wizard can wave his hand and completely obliterate a couple dozen Spartans. I don't know why anyone would see that as "low level."

One reason I like E6 is that it scales better for me than the regular D&D game.

This is certainly a subjective taste. I happen to like less of a gap between zero and mega hero. Once a PC gets beyond level twelve, they are pretty much Godlike. That's cool if you like that sort of scale, but it has never worked well for me in actual play.

Quote from: Cranewings;447108It isn't low power play though. First through sixth level Pathfinder / 3.5 is very, very high powered: something you only get with high level play in a lot of games. It SEEMS dwarfed by the sheer craziness of the power level of other things in the book, but it isn't actually low power.

Here is an example: Heroes Unlimited. A lot of people think of it as a high powered game. Compared to E6, it isn't. In Heroes Unlimited, imagine fighting half a dozen marines. All first level, making +3 Aimed Shots, +1 Burst. You have a -4 to dodge automatic weapons. Even if you get to them, they each have 1d4x10 SDC + a few physical skills, probably wrestling, body building, climbing, running, and boxing. Your energy projection does a half dozen d6. It is a hard fight. Depending on your build, even for some combat types, this is a hard fight.

In Pathfinder, SMASHING outright a full dozen first level fighters is a walk in the park for a 5th level character. Similarly, compare the effect of a 5d6 lightning bolt or fire ball on normal people compared to Major Energy Projection. Even normal people in Heroes Unlimited have 10 SDC, 10 HP, and can endure some negative health.

So when I say I want to play low level Pathfinder, that isn't the same thing as saying I want a low power game. I just don't want the stupid high powered game that is high level Pathfinder.

You make a good argument, particularly for pathfinder/3e. I kind of forgot that we were talking about that and not normal D&D.

RPGPundit