(because I really want some)
Quote from: Blair ReynoldsRight and proper gentlemen, your attention, please. This is a public announcement: Room 308 Graphics & Publishing will no longer pursue games supplement production. Newly completed, the long-anticipated Call of Cthulhu adventure supplement The Mysteries of Mesoamerica, which was to be RM308's premier publication, will instead be published by Pagan Publishing with an estimated release date as Summer 2008.
My apologies.
As the lone chief editor, operations manager, financial coordinator, sales representative, and sole artist, illustrator and designer for the entire company, I laboured for several years to get The Mysteries of Mesoamerica, a lavishly illustrated 150-page opus and RM308's premier publication, into production, devoting many hundreds of hours, early mornings and late evenings, weekends and holidays -- every spare scrap of free time -- to its design and development, anticipating my return to the games publishing forum. But as 2007 came to a close and I began final preparations for MoM's release -- at the same time preparing the foundation for the next supplement, The Mysteries of the Old West, Volume I (like 'Mesoamerica, another monster supplement in excess of 175 pages!) -- I realized that it would be impossible for RM308 to continue as it had. It was simply too much for one artist: rendering cover art, interior illustrations, NPC portraits, maps, spot art and layout, and struggling to maintain the production schedule of a respectable, marketable games publisher. As the sole proprietor, I concluded that RM308 could never become what I'd originally intended it to be.
It must be said that I had meanwhile also grown increasingly disenchanted and frustrated (again) with the games industry's orthodoxy, mediocrity, vapidity and apathy. Especially where Lovecraft and roleplaying are concerned, I feel strongly that too many bubbly, juvenile, tender-hearted milksops have infested the genre: Pollyannas promoting a kinder, gentler version of the Cthulhu Mythos by way of Cthulhu plush dolls, Elder Sign earrings, 'Niggurath nursery rhymes, Miskatonic Christmas carols, and buttloads of other flippant silliness.
And it's not just the gaming industry. The general population of devotees among "Lovecraftian circles" suffers from a fairy tale misconception of the Mythos, one that I believe would turn poor Howard in his grave if he could see the candy-ass travesty that his grand universe has become. The mainstream Mythos is a dumbed-down and diluted, popularized and trivialized, emasculated cartoon, wholly separate from the dark, unutterable, obscene and blood-soaked savagery that is the true essence of the Mythos, and my contempt for this fashionable, New Age, Hello Kitty Lovecraft is well known.
So no more games. RM308 hereby retires from its ambitions at roleplaying publication. Again, my apologies, especially to Brian Appleton and John Crowe, my trusted colleagues and brothers-in-arms.
Room 308 Graphics & Publishing will now concentrate its efforts on the development of my former personal works, Black Sands: Betrothed (the original), Black Sands: Catalogue of the Ten Thousand Churches, and Black Sands: Temple of the Compass. This "creative course correction" will be more manageable and feasible than full-time game supplement production, and will more faithfully reflect my personal (hardcore) concepts of the greater Mythos. More importantly, the rendering of these books will better serve and honour my lord and master, the Great Phæraoh Ahau Nyarlathotep, the Crawling Chaos, Father of Knives, Cæsar of the Ten Thousand Tongues and Architect of the Monument of the Great Rain -- blessings be upon His name! I've long considered my personal works to be secondary to CoC, but no longer.
Previews will soon be available for your inspection at my new website: //www.RM308.com, and I hope to receive your continued support.
Cheers,
Blair Reynolds, Editor-in-Chief
Room 308 Graphics & Publishing
Does anyone know if this guy is being serious?
Facetious?
Drunk?
The original is over here (http://www.yog-sothoth.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=122328#122328).
RPGPundit
I can barely tell what he's saying, much less whether he's serious or not. You'd think someone in the layout business would understand the beauty of double-spaced paragraphs.
Holy crap! That dude is awesome. The phrase "buttloads of other flippant silliness" is absolute genius.
And you know what? I kinda agree with him. CoC fandom has gotten very cutesy in recent years and it doesn't agree with me. Not to the extent that I would rant like this dude, but maybe I'd want to if I had been laboring on a big, dead serious CoC book while I watched the scene slide into lameness.
Blair Reynolds is one of the old school Pagan Publishing fellas. It appears that he's discovering, like so many, that his hobby is not maturing at the same rate he is.
!i!
Quote from: Ian Absentiaappears that he's discovering, like so many, that his hobby is not maturing at the same rate he is.
!i!
If by 'maturing' you mean 'losing his fucking mind'.
Yes dude, you are hardcore - a hardcore delusional nutcase. "My lord and master Nyarlathotep" indeed.
"...he's discovering, like so many, that his hobby is not maturing at the same rate he is."
That is brilliant.
Enh. I didn't take the little Nyarlatho-rant at the end seriously (though even a cursory reading of Delta Green would suggest that pretty much everyone working on the project was poised on the edge when producing it).
!i!
Quote from: Abyssal Maw"...he's discovering, like so many, that his hobby is not maturing at the same rate he is."
That is brilliant.
You know what I mean, right? It's sort of the inverse of the Peter Pan Syndrome. Instead of never growing up yourself, you find yourself frustrated that your favorite hobby isn't changing in lock-step with you. And I'm not referring to RPGs specifically here -- it happens with any hobby. One day you decide that you've grown up and you look back and wonder why your hobby didn't grow up with you.
!i!
So, nobody wanted his crap game supplement so he thinks Cthulhu fanfic will sell better?
To break it up into summary chunks it goes something like this:
- Grovelling Introduction.
- Egomaniacal description of working hard towards an unachievable goal.
- Perceived struggle through adversity.
- Whinge about how Mythos has changed.
- Miss the point that CoC was always tongue in cheek.
- Blatant plug for other work.
- I'm-so-mythos-is-hurts ending.
Anyone improve the list?
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaYou know what I mean, right? It's sort of the inverse of the Peter Pan Syndrome. Instead of never growing up yourself, you find yourself frustrated that your favorite hobby isn't changing in lock-step with you. And I'm not referring to RPGs specifically here -- it happens with any hobby. One day you decide that you've grown up and you look back and wonder why your hobby didn't grow up with you.
This is certainly true, and the attempts by some (*cough*Marvel+DC*cough*) to show that "it's not just for kids!" can end up almost destroying the very thing they grew up on.
It's a well-done rant, and I enjoyed it. 8 out of 10.
Is he serious? I guess we'll find out how serious he is soon.
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaYou know what I mean, right? It's sort of the inverse of the Peter Pan Syndrome. Instead of never growing up yourself, you find yourself frustrated that your favorite hobby isn't changing in lock-step with you. And I'm not referring to RPGs specifically here -- it happens with any hobby. One day you decide that you've grown up and you look back and wonder why your hobby didn't grow up with you.
You honestly think someone who has a morbid fascination with H.P. Lovecraft, suffers from a martyr complex, and calls Nyarlathotep his master is more mature than people who buy plush Cthulhu dolls?
i would've checked it (the mesoamerica thing) out. i always loved his artwork, esp. in DGP's stuff. and he's right, cthulhu is more a joke than a horror in "mainstream geekdom" anyway.
and "crap supplement?" geezer, go publish something yourself and get back to me after that :rolleyes:
Quote from: beeberand "crap supplement?" geezer, go publish something yourself and get back to me after that :rolleyes:
Ah, the old "you're not allowed to dislike it if you haven't written something yourself" maneuver. An oldie, but still entertaining in its ludicrousness.
I don't think the "ranter" looked much different from what many of us go through. He's not insane at all. He's simply lamenting that things have changed.
To tell you the truth, that sounds like what a lot of people go through whenever a new edition of D&D is released, and what a lot of people go through when their favorite bands supposedly "sell out".
I've read everything Lovecraft when I was a teenager but never got into CoC gaming. So I can't comment on his observations (which are probably mostly subjective anyway).
Quote from: RPGPundit(because I really want some)
Does anyone know if this guy is being serious?
Facetious?
Drunk?
I have little doubt he is serious. Way too serious. Maybe a little burned out. And he's right! I have Santa Cthulhu plushie and a Baby's First Mythos book. Both gifts but still.... :fhtagn:
P.S. If you were a Mythoshead I could see you blogging this rant. So you probably already have a good supply of whatever he's got. ;)
Quote from: James McMurrayAh, the old "you're not allowed to dislike it if you haven't written something yourself" maneuver. An oldie, but still entertaining in its ludicrousness.
the fucking thing wasn't even published yet. those who can't, criticize.
Quote from: beeberand "crap supplement?" geezer, go publish something yourself and get back to me after that :rolleyes:
Comedy gold.
Interesting.
I understood every word and nodded all along.
But he doesn´t know the REAL retardedness in Cthulhu gaming:
we-all-pretend-we-are-scared-but-don´t-actually-adress-the-scary-part-but-we-have so-nicely-photoshopped-handouts that is GermThulhu
Based on Mr. Reynolds rant, I wouldn't buy any supplement he'd authored (except maybe for its comedic value).
That's right, it's hyperbolic but it's a perfectly coherent argument.
However, IMO it doesn't address what looks like the real divide among people who unlike the plush doll faction still take the game seriously: Is CoC pulp or is it personal psychologizing horror? Is it Masks of N, or is it Ken Hite?
So, in that sense, the rant is a bit beside the point, I think.
Quote from: Old GeezerComedy gold.
How did you manage to edit your original content without the little
'last edited' gizmo at the bottom of the post? Inquiring minds want to know.
Quote from: beeberthe fucking thing wasn't even published yet. those who can't, criticize.
This book hasn't been yet but he
has been published. For example. (http://www.yog-sothoth.com/cocdbdetail.php?IS=L&ID=242)
EDIT: BTW if you read his rant closely you'd notice this. "...anticipating my
return[/b] to the games publishing forum." My emphasis.
Quote from: One Horse TownHow did you manage to edit your original content without the little 'last edited' gizmo at the bottom of the post? Inquiring minds want to know.
If you do it fast enough. There is a small window of time where that line won't show up.
So his idea of Cthulu-esque artwork involves obese S&M fetishists and tentacle fellatio?
Nope, I won't be buying his books.
He apparently likes it, no demands it, dark and perverse. I've never seen Black Sands myself (haven't been able to Google any pics either) but I've heard before he's way, way out there. Very disturbing and doesn't shy from including sexual charged imagry.
Quote from: James McMurraySo his idea of Cthulu-esque artwork involves obese S&M fetishists and tentacle fellatio?
Nope, I won't be buying his books.
That was my thought, exactly.
-clash
Quote from: Pierce InverarityHowever, IMO it doesn't address what looks like the real divide among people who unlike the plush doll faction still take the game seriously: Is CoC pulp or is it personal psychologizing horror? Is it Masks of N, or is it Ken Hite?
Can't it be both?
This isn't a rhetorical question. I'm not terribly familiar with the game but based on reports from friends who have enjoyed it for something like two decades, the appeal seems to be that it crosses both lines in a way that appeals to them.
Now that I think further about it, usually, the people who didn't enjoy it and shared their experiences with me thought the blend didn't work.
Mystery, Suspense, Dread, and Fear are not the same things as Shock, Repulsion, Depravity, and the Bizarre.
More than a few game designers seem to struggle with that.
Quote from: Consonant DudeCan't it be both?
Not IME. What's the inner life of Indiana Jones like?
I did get into CoC very early, when it was thoroughly pulpy. Maybe other people can reconcile the two strains better, but to me there's no middle ground.
Interestingly enough if it had been about Traveller instead of CoC I could have written that rant.
I do think there is a failure of vision that permeates the industry these days. I do think that comercial potential has completely eclipsed originality and singularity of vision.
At the same time the industry is floundering financially. Cause? Effect? Vicious Circle? Natural Decline?
I dunno.
Quote from: RPGPunditDoes anyone know if this guy is being serious?
Facetious?
Drunk?
The original is over here (http://www.yog-sothoth.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=122328#122328).
RPGPundit
Edit: After rereading it I think my inital thought was wrong. He seems a bit burned out and largely disenchanted with the hobby.
He of course could have stated that without sounding like an idiot.
Quote from: Pierce InverarityNot IME. What's the inner life of Indiana Jones like?
Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!
For the last five years of internet debate!
The fucked upness originates:
With people who seriously think they have an answer to that question, and who think that it really matters.
Quote from: beeberthe fucking thing wasn't even published yet. those who can't, criticize.
Oh, of course. Of all the people who I'm sure have little creative knowledge of the game, it's
Old friggin' Geezer that I'm sure is near the top of the list.
Quote from: Thanatos02Oh, of course. Of all the people who I'm sure have little creative knowledge of the game, it's Old friggin' Geezer that I'm sure is near the top of the list.
Well, he was awfully dismissive and seemingly ignorant of Blair Reynolds' previous commercial success working on "crap supplements" for CoC so I can't fault beeber's reaction.
KoOS
Just because it bears repeating:
Quote from: StuartMystery, Suspense, Dread, and Fear are not the same things as Shock, Repulsion, Depravity, and the Bizarre.
It wasn't antiquated prudery or commercial ambitions that stopped Lovecraft from describing his Nameless Horrors in graphic detail; the details only matter to fetishists and those whose sensibilities are so crude that they need shocking transgression to feel anything.
Quote from: Pierce InverarityNot IME. What's the inner life of Indiana Jones like?
I did get into CoC very early, when it was thoroughly pulpy. Maybe other people can reconcile the two strains better, but to me there's no middle ground.
Fair enough.
And you have a point with your example. But Indiana Jones is a concentrated work.
In a campaign that spans over 3000 hours of actual CoC play, it's probably easier to encompass several dimensions and flavors a bit more elegantly. Not that it's necessarly desirable for everybody, mind you.
Quote from: StuartMystery, Suspense, Dread, and Fear are not the same things as Shock, Repulsion, Depravity, and the Bizarre.
Quote from: HaffrungIt wasn't antiquated prudery or commercial ambitions that stopped Lovecraft from describing his Nameless Horrors in graphic detail; the details only matter to fetishists and those whose sensibilities are so crude that they need shocking transgression to feel anything.
Well, but both of these are compatible with being pulp. Pulp novels and magazines like Weird Tales often sold on being shocking, lurid, and/or grotesque. A lot of people may think of Indiana Jones as definitive pulp -- but that's really a modern invention by Spielberg making "pulp" into PG-rated cinematic family fare, which is quite different from the thirties original pulps.
Quote from: jhkimWell, but both of these are compatible with being pulp. Pulp novels and magazines like Weird Tales often sold on being shocking, lurid, and/or grotesque. A lot of people may think of Indiana Jones as definitive pulp -- but that's really a modern invention by Spielberg making "pulp" into PG-rated cinematic family fare, which is quite different from the thirties original pulps.
I'm not an HP Lovecraft scholar, and haven't even read all of his stories... but from what I've read I wouldn't use words like "shocking, lurid, and/or grotesque" to describe it. :)
That aside, if you're putting "shocking, lurid, and/or grotesque" things into your game because you want a "shocking, lurid, and/or grotesque" game -- that's one thing. The problem is when people put "shocking, lurid, and/or grotesque" in their games thinking they're the same thing as "Mystery, Suspense, Dread, and Fear ". Which they're not.
Quote from: jhkimWell, but both of these are compatible with being pulp. Pulp novels and magazines like Weird Tales often sold on being shocking, lurid, and/or grotesque. A lot of people may think of Indiana Jones as definitive pulp -- but that's really a modern invention by Spielberg making "pulp" into PG-rated cinematic family fare, which is quite different from the thirties original pulps.
What's the inner life of Doc Savage like?
Quote from: Pierce InverarityWhat's the inner life of Doc Savage like?
Honestly, I don't know since I haven't read Doc Savage, though I have read other pulps. But really, if you imagine that pulps that tried to be shocking (or grotesque, macabre, or whatever) were all about "inner life" -- I think you're sadly mistaken.
It seems to me that you're trying to divide things into a false dichotomy of good, clean-cut action (like Indiana Jones or presumably Doc Savage) versus cerebral exploration of inner life. Many pulps were neither. The typical "stories of the macabre" might have less outright combat than a typical adventure tale -- but it wasn't exactly cerebral. The same goes for pulp romance stories, that were often transgressive.
Quote from: Rob LangTo break it up into summary chunks it goes something like this:
[...snip...]
Anyone improve the list?
You forgot:
- Weirdly vitriolic response from people who are apparently unfamiliar with his work.
You know, this reminds me a bit of the video some girls posted to the Internet a couple of years back, where she's playing with a butterfly knife. Just sitting on a stool with an impassive look on her face, making the knife fly like mad. The responses to the video were fantastic: lots and lots of guys posting how they could kick the shit out of her, like that's what she was challenging them to do. Weird, guys.
!i!
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaYou forgot:- Weirdly vitriolic response from people who are apparently unfamiliar with his work.
You know, this reminds me a bit of the video some girls posted to the Internet a couple of years back, where she's playing with a butterfly knife. Just sitting on a stool with an impassive look on her face, making the knife fly like mad. The responses to the video were fantastic: lots and lots of guys posting how they could kick the shit out of her, like that's what she was challenging them to do. Weird, guys.
!i!
I could totally kick the shit out of you.
Seriously.
Don't challenge me like that, dude.
...kicking the shit out of each other upon first meeting in-person?
Sounds like a first date as seen on TORCHWOOD.
- Ed C.
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaYou forgot:- Weirdly vitriolic response from people who are apparently unfamiliar with his work.
QFT. That, and people who apparently didn't even read the rant properly. It's not like he's walking away because nobody bought Mysteries of Mesoamerica... HE HASN'T EVEN RELEASED IT YET, FUCKWITS! He's walking away because he's burnt out on doing all the work himself. He's hardly the first person, inside or outside the hobby, to have that experience.
And whatever I may think of his rather bizarre rant (I don't think he was serious about the Nyarlathotep part, or at least I hope not...), I bet there are plenty of folks who would happily pay for a CoC supplement (a) about Mesoamerica, and (b) written by one of the DG contributors.
KoOS
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaYou forgot:- Weirdly vitriolic response from people who are apparently unfamiliar with his work.
Ian when you wrote this....you were aware what site you were posting on, right?
Regards,
David R
Quote from: jhkimIt seems to me that you're trying to divide things into a false dichotomy of good, clean-cut action (like Indiana Jones or presumably Doc Savage) versus cerebral exploration of inner life. Many pulps were neither. The typical "stories of the macabre" might have less outright combat than a typical adventure tale -- but it wasn't exactly cerebral. The same goes for pulp romance stories, that were often transgressive.
It seems to me you're confusing your interlocutors. I do not equate the absence of an inner life with good clean fun. Again, Conan doesn't have an inner life.
Quote from: SpikeI could totally kick the shit out of you.
Seriously.
And my black lord, Nyarlathotep would totally take a crap on you for the affront to one of his minions. Ïa, ïa! Ftagvernügen!
!i!
OK, maybe I wasn't making myself clear here. It seemed to me that there was a false dichotomy being presented.
Quote from: Pierce InverarityHowever, IMO it doesn't address what looks like the real divide among people who unlike the plush doll faction still take the game seriously: Is CoC pulp or is it personal psychologizing horror? Is it Masks of N, or is it Ken Hite?
I don't really see this divide. As far as I've seen no one plays Call of Cthulthu isn't purely psychological horror -- there's always monsters and/or the supernatural. The divide is more between impersonal horror where the PCs are often more like professional monster-hunters, and personal horror where the PCs are more connected to the horrors. Both of these are consistent with both pulp in general and Lovecraft specifically. There are plenty of Lovecraft stories where the protagonist discovers horror in his own self or his ancestry, say, but also ones where the horror is more external.
I wish there were as many Aasimov-fish-readers as there are Lovecraft exegets...:rolleyes:
We talk about RPGs, WOTC brings up MMORPGs.
We talk about RPGs, Koltar brings up TV shows.
We talk about RPGs, John brings up novels.
You know what the crisis is about?
Nobody trusts an RPG to be an RPG any more. It must be a derivate of some other fucking thing in order to be valuable.
By itself, it is nothing.
All other things aside, I agree that Cthulhu fandom has tamed and disenchanted the mythos. It should ideally be some dark, immense and monstrous thing lurking just on the edges of your field of vision, not the geek chic of Cthulhu slippers and yellow sign fridge magnets. By having been thoroughly explored and dissected, the mythos has lost what made it alluring in the first place, and been reduced to a quaint and safe joke.
Behold: these are the dangers of "worldbuilding".
Quote from: MelanAll other things aside, I agree that Cthulhu fandom has tamed and disenchanted the mythos. It should ideally be some dark, immense and monstrous thing lurking just on the edges of your field of vision, not the geek chic of Cthulhu slippers and yellow sign fridge magnets. By having been thoroughly explored and dissected, the mythos has lost what made it alluring in the first place, and been reduced to a quaint and safe joke.
Behold: these are the dangers of "worldbuilding".
I've said it before, and I'll say it again:
The only real way to do Mythos right anymore, is ditching the Mythos.
What would you be left with, J?
Quote from: Pierce InverarityWe talk about RPGs, Koltar brings up TV shows.
By itself, it is nothing.
Only if its similiar to the type of RPG being discussed.
- Ed C.
Quote from: Pierce InverarityWhat would you be left with, J?
Well, to me, the think that appeals about the Mythos is more the feel of the universe, it's denizens, the stories and themes and approaches to storytelling.
It's perfectly plausible to do your own modern interpretation or spin on that style of story, whilst ditching the actual particulars and canon references, and wind up with something that feels both fresh, and familiar.
It's been done in other media numerous times, so I don't see why it can't be done in roleplaying games.
Quote from: Pierce InverarityWhat would you be left with, J?
The concept of an empty and uncaring universe which may snuff you out in an act of random chance.
Quote from: Pierce InverarityWe talk about RPGs, WOTC brings up MMORPGs.
We talk about RPGs, Koltar brings up TV shows.
We talk about RPGs, John brings up novels.
You know what the crisis is about?
Nobody trusts an RPG to be an RPG any more. It must be a derivate of some other fucking thing in order to be valuable.
By itself, it is nothing.
Mmmm. I don´t think so. I think it´s a problem of most peoples limited range of arguments. Hammer & Nail, so to speak.
Add to that: Many people havbe a limited understanding of RPGs. See Mike Mearls and Traveller.
Quote from: MelanThe concept of an empty and uncaring universe which may snuff you out in an act of random chance.
I'm very fond of the idea of alien races who really are alien in mindset, who don't even view us humans as equivalent lifeforms.
And that whole madness thing is pretty damn cool if you ask me. The idea that there are things and places and bits of knowledge in this world that the human mind can so little comprehend that only insanity can possibly follow from it's experience.
I just think there's so many different things you can take from those stories and games without focusing on the particulars of a lot of bug-eyed monsters everyone's seen a million times.
Afterall, isn't that how much of the non-Lovecraft Mythos stuff got started anyway? Taking the themes and mood and concepts, and spinning off in a million directions with it?
Most horror is trivialized, probably because horror touches on shit that scares the hell out of us and on a subconscious level we trivialize it so we don't cry like little girls. I mean, Count Chocula cereal? That's just as bad as Cthulhu slippers. But that doesn't cheapen the horror when it's told right.
-=Grim=-
Quote from: J ArcaneIt's been done in other media numerous times, so I don't see why it can't be done in roleplaying games.
Other media ? What's the matter J, don't you trust the value of an RPG...
I think you're right though. I know of many gamers who like
CoC for the many reasons you mentioned but have no real interest in the Mythos....it's not "alien" enough or it's alieness does nothing to contribute to the scare factor of the setting. I for one am more than willing to explore different directions which does not include the Mythos.
Regards,
David R
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaYou know what I mean, right? It's sort of the inverse of the Peter Pan Syndrome. Instead of never growing up yourself, you find yourself frustrated that your favorite hobby isn't changing in lock-step with you. And I'm not referring to RPGs specifically here -- it happens with any hobby. One day you decide that you've grown up and you look back and wonder why your hobby didn't grow up with you.
Only that I found the exact opposite happening to RPGs.
The games
are growing up with their audience, maybe not in lock-step, but nearly so. Das schwarze Auge in Germany, D&D3, Vampire The Masquerade and Unknown Armies -- the games get considerably more complex, in all directions, be it rules, or shades-of-grey-morals, or "mature themes".
Today, you have to look really, really hard to find a game that Peter Pan would even begin to play.
Quote from: Pierce InverarityYou know what the crisis is about?
Nobody trusts an RPG to be an RPG any more. It must be a derivate of some other fucking thing in order to be valuable.
By itself, it is nothing.
Holy shit, someone is referring to books in a discussion about an RPG based on some author's stories?
This is the end of gaming as we know it.
Quote from: J ArcaneI'm very fond of the idea of alien races who really are alien in mindset, who don't even view us humans as equivalent lifeforms.
And that whole madness thing is pretty damn cool if you ask me. The idea that there are things and places and bits of knowledge in this world that the human mind can so little comprehend that only insanity can possibly follow from it's experience.
I just think there's so many different things you can take from those stories and games without focusing on the particulars of a lot of bug-eyed monsters everyone's seen a million times.
Afterall, isn't that how much of the non-Lovecraft Mythos stuff got started anyway? Taking the themes and mood and concepts, and spinning off in a million directions with it?
Yeah, Ramsey Campbell does this exceptionally well, especially in his later work (once he got the Lovecraft pastiches out of his system). "The Overnight" is incredibly subtle and has a truly Lovecraftian adversary, even though it has basically no canon Mythos references.
Quote from: J ArcaneAnd that whole madness thing is pretty damn cool if you ask me. The idea that there are things and places and bits of knowledge in this world that the human mind can so little comprehend that only insanity can possibly follow from it's experience.
Actually this is the reason I find Lovecraft's works insulting (well that and his prejudice). Most people do not react well to their world view being challenged or shattered, but they learn to cope and survive. People are capable of adapting. Much more so than Lovecraft gives them credit for.
Anyway, I think the poster of that rant needs to have his spirits raised...
(http://sunfox.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/ubuntu-hello-cthulhu-mini.png)
Quote from: WarthurHoly shit, someone is referring to books in a discussion about an RPG based on some author's stories? This is the end of gaming as we know it.
Actually, this is nearer to the truth than you´d be comfortable with.
Quote from: GrimJestaMost horror is trivialized, probably because horror touches on shit that scares the hell out of us and on a subconscious level we trivialize it so we don't cry like little girls. I mean, Count Chocula cereal? That's just as bad as Cthulhu slippers. But that doesn't cheapen the horror when it's told right.
-=Grim=-
Humor is the counter to horror. As soon as you crack a joke about something it loses its power to terrify you. You may still be scared and concerned for your survival, but the "horror" is gone.
Quote from: SettembriniActually, this is nearer to the truth than you´d be comfortable with.
That path leads to the dark side...the path of story gaming it is... :melodramatic:
Quote from: MelanBy having been thoroughly explored and dissected, the mythos has lost what made it alluring in the first place, and been reduced to a quaint and safe joke.
Behold: these are the dangers of "worldbuilding".
Absolutely! This is what I was talking about in the Pit Fiend thread. If you include all the secrets and background information on a monster -- thoroughly exploring and dissecting it -- it diminishes what made it interesting in the first place.
The Geek need to thoroughly analyze, catalogue and expand upon the minutiae of the fictional worlds they enjoy is at odds with the horror, suspense, mystery, surprise, the unknown, and sense of magic and wonder within those worlds.
Quote from: Dirk RemmeckeOnly that I found the exact opposite happening to RPGs.
The games are growing up with their audience, maybe not in lock-step, but nearly so. Das schwarze Auge in Germany, D&D3, Vampire The Masquerade and Unknown Armies -- the games get considerably more complex, in all directions, be it rules, or shades-of-grey-morals, or "mature themes".
Today, you have to look really, really hard to find a game that Peter Pan would even begin to play.
"mature themes" usually aren't. ;)
The games are often becoming more rules heavy or "crunchy", but I don't see them widely becoming more mature.
Some RPGs have shifted to the angsty teen morality of later childhood. That doesn't make them grown up though. :)
But daaad, if you don't let me borrow the sword tonight I can't go kill the draaagon. And then I'll never get a date for the prom.
The complexity and maturity of old D&D and 1e gameplay is hugely underrated.
Quote from: SettembriniActually, this is nearer to the truth than you´d be comfortable with.
Dun dun
dun... (Ominous music!)
What has Old Geezer written? I'm not challenging, just -- man, I dunno what he's written.
Quote from: StuartSome RPGs have shifted to the angsty teen morality of later childhood. That doesn't make them grown up though. :)
And some games still revel in juvenile wish fulfillment fantasies.
I do think there have always been games which have broken away from the pack and tried something different. Gamers have always explored mature themes in their games. And I think of late certain games are not aimed at the teen market but rather to the older demographic of gamers.
Regards,
David R
Quote from: Dirk RemmeckeThe games are growing up with their audience, maybe not in lock-step, but nearly so. Das schwarze Auge in Germany, D&D3, Vampire The Masquerade and Unknown Armies -- the games get considerably more complex, in all directions, be it rules, or shades-of-grey-morals, or "mature themes".
I can't speak for
Das Schwarze Auge, but the other three, while their intent and support material may be mature in nature and content, are seldom played so seriously in my experience.
I can speak to
Unknown Armies in particular. I was peripherally involved in writing some of the early books for the game, and I was
constantly irritated and confounded by fans who mistook depravity and venality for "mature content," and would confront those of us writing the game on this misconception. They saw the blood splatters on the covers and didn't explore the themes beyond that. I became disenchanted and moved on to other, brighter (and hopefully more "mature") pursuits.
!i!
Quote from: SettembriniSee Mike Mearls and Traveller.
I'm curious: did Mearls say something recently about
Traveller? I know from personal experience that he's admitted to never having understood the game, so this piqued my interest.
That´s about it. He said so on your (?) blog recently.
Anyway, the main thing I´m complaining about is the total lack of understanding for strategy and strategic gaming in current and future D&D.
And I fear, our old Mearls is part of that.
Someone who don´t groks Traveller, and someone who doesn´t see that Arkham Horror has an optimal strategy that invalidates the point in playing it, could be strategically challenged.
To be honest, Mike is just a stand-in here. I don´t really know him , so he might be Napoleon himself. Personalizing and finding culprits is part of the internet-gaming-scene-observation-game.
What I said in my second sentence is important.
Quote from: David RAnd some games still revel in juvenile wish fulfillment fantasies.
I do think there have always been games which have broken away from the pack and tried something different. Gamers have always explored mature themes in their games. And I think of late certain games are not aimed at the teen market but rather to the older demographic of gamers.
I haven't played Das Schwarze Auge or Unknown Armies, but D&D3 and Vampire are both very much wish fulfillment fantasies. And I absolutely agree that many recent games are targeted at a 20+ demographic. That doesn't make them genuinely "mature" games though. :)
Quote from: SettembriniThat´s about it. He said so on your (?) blog recently.
Yes, he did say so on my blog; I was curious if it'd come up elsewhere, since I didn't realize anyone read my blog except a handful of friends. :D
QuoteAnyway, the main thing I´m complaining about is the total lack of understanding for strategy and strategic gaming in current and future D&D.
I worry about that too and most of what I've heard about 4E suggests that this lack of understanding has had some unfortunate consequences for its design. Of course, I sometimes wonder if the designers are just reflecting a more widespread lack of understanding in the hobby as a whole. I fear that very few gamers today would even know what you were talking about or why it's an issue at all, so 4E is probably a better reflection of what contemporary gamers want or at least understand (not that I think that's a good thing).
Quote from: SettembriniAnyway, the main thing I´m complaining about is the total lack of understanding for strategy and strategic gaming in current and future D&D.
It remains to be seen whether they even produce a "game" at all, rather than an "activity" a group of players engages in. Then again, the same could be said for a huge portion of the industry... ;)
Quote from: StuartThat doesn't make them genuinely "mature" games though. :)
Well I tend to view any game which moves beyond wish fullfilment as mature or at the very least dealing with mature themes but I guess we will have to leave it here....I fear soon we will begin a definition game and I don't have the stamina :D
Regards,
David R
@James:
Let me kiss you.:haw:
The sad part is, that a problem with the strategic layers poses problems even for the people who don´t care about the strategy. I fear this will come back to haunt them.
It definitely destroyed Cthulhu as a healthy RPG and a decent campaign game. Especially in Germany. There was a Cthulhu Convention recently, and every single adventure was the old "first encounter with the mythos" setup.
It´s amazing how often people can play this. It´s retarded.
But with the severe contradictions and problems in the strategic layer of Cthulhu (as a game), it´s no wonder.
Quote from: StuartIt remains to be seen whether they even produce a "game" at all, rather than an "activity" a group of players engages in. Then again, the same could be said for a huge portion of the industry... ;)
Care to elaborate? I´m not sure I´m reading you correctly.
WoW?
Quote from: David RWell I tend to view any game which moves beyond wish fullfilment as mature or at the very least dealing with mature themes but I guess we will have to leave it here....I fear soon we will begin a definition game and I don't have the stamina :D
Let's just say it's relative. For example, Teletubbies is more mature than Boobah. :D
Quote from: Stuart..... Teletubbies is more mature than Boobah. :D
Well of course with the former's gay character and all....:eek:
Regards,
David R
Quote from: David RWell I tend to view any game which moves beyond wish fullfilment as mature or at the very least dealing with mature themes but I guess we will have to leave it here....I fear soon we will begin a definition game and I don't have the stamina :D
Regards,
David R
I don't feel it's my job as a designer to dictate whether or not the group uses my game to "explore adult themes" or "indulge in juvenile wish fulfillment" or anything in between. Both should be valid choices. I try to leave room for both, but leave it up to the gaming group.
-clash
Quote from: SettembriniCare to elaborate? I´m not sure I´m reading you correctly.
WoW?
Starting with Chris Crawford's definition of "game" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game#Definitions) and following that up with my own thoughts on what makes a "game" (http://www.designmeme.com/2006/11/08/game-design-theory-part-i/) as well as different types of players choices (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/2039/improving_player_choices.php).
I think there are more than a few RPG / LARPs / Storygames that fall outside of "game" and would be better described as something else.
For example, if the players decisions can categorized as:
# Hollow decision: no real consequences
# Obvious decision: no real decision
# Uninformed decision: an arbitrary choice
That changes the nature of what the actual
game being played is.
All games have a win and lose condition. Many RPGs are just unclear about what the actual game being played is. ;)
Quote from: flyingmiceI don't feel it's my job as a designer to dictate whether or not the group uses my game to "explore adult themes" or "indulge in juvenile wish fulfillment" or anything in between. Both should be valid choices. I try to leave room for both, but leave it up to the gaming group.
Sure but I don't think I implied design choice anywhere...in fact I assumed folks would understand where I was coming from when I said earlier, gamers have been exploring "mature" themes - in case I was not clear - whatever the game/system.
Regards,
David R
Quote from: David RWell of course with the former's gay character and all....:eek:
Regards,
David R
Have you ever actually watched it? They live in a half-buried
spaceship, and have a maintenance robot onboard the ship. They almost put the engine on overload once, but were too oblivious to notice. In one episode an evil mirror appeared from "somewhere far away" and made them start fighting to possess it.
Compared to most kids shows, there's a lot of pretty cool stuff in the background. :D
Quote from: StuartCompared to most kids shows, there's a lot of pretty cool stuff in the background. :D
If you say so man, I don't think I'll be watching it any time soon. All the kids in my family want to do is play some sort of fighting video game...or watch the old
Stingray action series from my DVD collection...
Regards,
David R
Quote from: David RSure but I don't think I implied design choice anywhere...in fact I assumed folks would understand where I was coming from when I said earlier, gamers have been exploring "mature" themes - in case I was not clear - whatever the game/system.
Regards,
David R
I wasn't trying to imply that, David! I was introducing the designer level bit myself, as it's a concern of mine. As a GM, I'm happy to take a game in any direction the players want to go, and I have been since I started in 1977. I was already an adult when I started, so that option was always on the table.
-clash
Quote from: David RIf you say so man, I don't think I'll be watching it any time soon. All the kids in my family want to do is play some sort of fighting video game...or watch the old Stingray action series from my DVD collection...
Regards,
David R
Stingray rocked! Of course when I watched it it was cutting edge tech... :O
-clash
Quote from: flyingmiceI wasn't trying to imply that, David! I was introducing the designer level bit myself, as it's a concern of mine. As a GM, I'm happy to take a game in any direction the players want to go, and I have been since I started in 1977. I was already an adult when I started, so that option was always on the table.
Sorry clash, my mistake. I blame the vodka...
Regards,
David R
Quote from: James MaliszewskiYes, he did say so on my blog; I was curious if it'd come up elsewhere, since I didn't realize anyone read my blog except a handful of friends. :D
We're monitoring it vigilantly.
Quote from: King of Old School(I don't think he was serious about the Nyarlathotep part, or at least I hope not...)
Hard to say. That was a very H.P.Lovecraft thing to do as Lovecraft would tack on things a little like that to the end of his letters. But then Lovecraft's bolts weren't all tightened either. :keke:
Quote from: StuartI'm not an HP Lovecraft scholar, and haven't even read all of his stories... but from what I've read I wouldn't use words like "shocking, lurid, and/or grotesque" to describe it. :)
Because they were written nearly a century ago? Yet they are, if you really tune up your imagination, "shocking, lurid, and/or grotesque". Especially to the characters in the story that start out sane. They are, more often than not, completely revolted by what they witness. To the point of losing their friggin minds.
It's hard to paint/draw an actual visual of the thing itself. If it didn't appear shocking, lurid, and/or grotesque to someone viewing the picture it would have
failed to capture the spirit, no?
Quote from: Pierce InverarityThat's right, it's hyperbolic but it's a perfectly coherent argument.
However, IMO it doesn't address what looks like the real divide among people who unlike the plush doll faction still take the game seriously: Is CoC pulp or is it personal psychologizing horror? Is it Masks of N, or is it Ken Hite?
So, in that sense, the rant is a bit beside the point, I think.
I don't think he cares about that aspect of the games. That's just a completely different point. He's coming at this from the POV of his [main] trade, that being the pictures and imagines.
Quote from: blakkieIt's hard to paint/draw an actual visual of the thing itself. If it didn't appear shocking, lurid, and/or grotesque to someone viewing the picture it would have failed to capture the spirit, no?
The point is that that the unknown and the unknowable is more horrifying than any shit the guy quoted in the OP (or Lovecraft himself, for that matter) can put to paper. Lovecraft is creepy because he alludes to creepy shit, and shows us the reaction of normal people to the creepy shit. Our imaginations do the rest. Graphically depicting tentacle-rape and so on misses the point entirely.
But then, some people don't have the imagination to be horrified by things that are only alluded to - they need to see everything in technicolor, gore-porn detail in order to feel anything. That makes them juvenile and crude, not sophisticated and mature.
Man what the fuck is this shit?
I'm all trying to be positive and talk about ways to revive the feel of cthonic horror and now people are babbling about 4e and game choice and a lot of other unrelated bollocks.
also, Stuart, Chris Crawford's a pretensious douchebag who's basically become one of vidgaming's equivalents to the Forge or Ron Edwards. Right down to making his own "story game".
QuoteGraphically depicting tentacle-rape and so on misses the point entirely.
Is that what that was on the back cover? I thought it was more like this. (http://media02.liquidblue.com/imagedb/tshirts/fantasy/_Thumb/31762f.jpg) (as a very rough example of something crawling/growing through human remains) Some sort of vine coming out/in. Because that head didn't look human anymore, instead converted to a plant or something. *shrug*
Quote from: HaffrungThe point is that that the unknown and the unknowable is more horrifying than any shit the guy quoted in the OP (or Lovecraft himself, for that matter) can put to paper. Lovecraft is creepy because he alludes to creepy shit, and shows us the reaction of normal people to the creepy shit. Our imaginations do the rest.
I personally thought that front cover was really appropriate. Read through the CoC, the story not the game, and see the 'fatness' of Cthulhu. The grotesqueness of the creature. Overly fat and overly thin are naturally unsettling, that there is something very wrong at work. An illness or worse. Toss down some ritual instruments, and this much larger humanoid (grotesque avatar that the human has distorted themselves to look like?) and it gives a very creepy feel. If you don't want f*#$ed up creepy? *shrug* He's not far off in suggesting that you don't want pictures that evoke the spirit of the Mythos.
BTW Lovecraft isn't really Horror more than it is Dark Fantasy. Existential Horror is more tragety than horror.
Quote from: J Arcanealso, Stuart, Chris Crawford's a pretensious douchebag who's basically become one of vidgaming's equivalents to the Forge or Ron Edwards. Right down to making his own "story game".
Interesting.
I don't play a lot of videogames right now, and the wikipedia entry is about the sum total of what I'm citing from Chris and agreeing with. I can't really comment on his other writing or his "story game"... because I haven't read much of it. ;)
Basically my comment boils down to this:
What meaningful choices are the players making in the game, what is the challenge involved in those choices, and how does it affect winning the game?
If there are no meaningful choices, no challenge involved in those choices, or they have no bearing on whether or not you "win" / "lose" / "have more fun" / "have less fun" / "succeed" / "fail" then it's not really a "game" in the way I'm talking about.
Many choices players make in RPGs are Hollow, Obvious, Uninformed, or otherwise Inconsequential to reaching any sort of "Win" conditions for the game.
(Most RPGs side-step the "how you win" part of the game, or offload it to the players "make up your own games!" Confusion about how you "win" can in turn leads to all sorts of dysfunction if players think the goal is something different from the other people at the table.)
Stuart.
Non-zero-sum-game.
Nuff said.
Quote from: SettembriniStuart.
Non-zero-sum-game.
Nuff said.
Heh. That's a good place to start. But that doesn't absolve most RPGs. :D
QuoteMany choices players make in RPGs are Hollow, Obvious, Uninformed, or otherwise Inconsequential to reaching any sort of "Win" conditions for the game.
(Most RPGs side-step the "how you win" part of the game, or offload it to the players "make up your own games!" Confusion about how you "win" can in turn leads to all sorts of dysfunction if players think the goal is something different from the other people at the table.)
This is true, which is why it's a good idea to talk explicitly about goals if you are playing a game that doesn't come with it's own explicit win condition there, right out front. Unfortunately even when there is a win condition given sometimes the people involved will ignore it and make up their own anyway. :) So for really broad stuff like RPGs sometimes it's a good idea to do a double check even when there is a semi-obvious win condition like 'get all the loot you can' or such.
Of course you don't need a win condition for choices to have meaning. And the form a 'challenge' can take is very, very wide.
Quote from: SettembriniI wish there were as many Aasimov-fish-readers as there are Lovecraft exegets...:rolleyes:
Asimov? Fish? What?
Firstly, what? Secondly... what? Thirdly... seriously, what?
Quote from: beejazzAsimov? Fish? What?
Firstly, what? Secondly... what? Thirdly... seriously, what?
http://www.timecube.com/
Quote from: blakkiehttp://www.timecube.com/
Same questions?
Exactly. :deflated: It makes no friggin sense. EDIT: Unless you consult the 'German Dipshit' dictionary. (http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=172978&postcount=68)
Quote from: blakkiehttp://www.timecube.com/
wow, just wow.
Oh, and I think the descriptiveness/vagueness issue is a pretty lame thing to bring up. Lovecraft was very descriptive, if not necessarily visually so.
The Mi-Go in Whisperer in Darkness? They took one of the main characters' brains and put it in a jar. Then they wore his face and hands and pretended to be him, using a mechanical voice of some sort. True it doesn't say this outright as its happening, but that's a matter of pacing rather than of some general principle that leaving things obscure is inherently better. The point was to let the realization that all kinds of horrible fucked-up shit be the climax of the piece. So yeah, the obfuscation itself serves the purpose of putting the grotesque and macabre on a pedestal.
Or how about the shoggoth that so wasn't described as chasing the protagonists out of the cave, trampling (is that still the word for it when it's done by an amorphous mass of flesh with a mutable anatomy?) penguins and shrieking "tekeleli" or whatever it was. Very vivid description if not particularly visual. I think there was the mention of some eyes and mouths and rolling and such, so maybe there was even a bit of visual detail there.
The anatomies (among other things) of various alien species was made quite apparent in Shadow Out of Time. One of the few times Lovecraft got into the nitty-gritty of the physical details of his monsters. Not effective? Yes and no on that one... the monsters explicitly described aren't actually there and don't do anything scary.
Innsmouth? A good bit of what was (supposed to be) scary was the protagonist's transformation. Described in a good bit of detail.
Anyway, what I'm trying to get across is that Lovecraft's particular descriptive idiom was defined not as scarce or common description, but as well paced and well deployed description. You get hints at the very beginning, which put very macabre happenings towards the end into perspective. Or the reverse, where you get very sick things happening that you wouldn't guess right away through the whole of the story, and putting it into context in retrospect at the climax. Also, a lack of visual description doesn't change that the things that actually happened that were so horrible were pretty explicitly stated or very heavy-handedly implied. You're going to lose the visual scarcity by illustrating at all.
Quote from: Callouswow, just wow.
I'm a bit surprised, I thought pretty much everyone that's spent time on the Internet had run into Gene Ray's little gem of a website. He's the proto Internet nutjob.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timecube
Quote from: blakkieI'm a bit surprised, I thought pretty much everyone that's spent time on the Internet had run into Gene Ray's little gem of a website. He's the proto Internet nutjob.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timecube
Oh, I've seen it before. It just continues to be shocking, regardless of how familiar a person is with it. Kinda like tub girl. I didn't link it for a reason, btw. Don't look it up.
Umm, you do realize that Lovecraft literally wrote the book on the importance of vagaries in horror? It's one of his most famous non-fiction essays. And one of my personal favorite ways to describe good horror.
Quote from: J ArcaneUmm, you do realize that Lovecraft literally wrote the book on the importance of vagaries in horror? It's one of his most famous non-fiction essays. And one of my personal favorite ways to describe good horror.
I get that he knew when and what not to describe. But he also knew when and what *to* describe.
Anyone can call any old thing "eldritch" rather than give it a face. Doesn't make my dishwasher scary if I call it "arcane." But if I find out suddenly that my dishwasher has been parading around in a friend of mine's skin and even fooled me? That's one scary fucking dishwasher.
Again, the suspense here (in case you didn't get it I'm again referring to Whisperer in Darkness and am dropping the dishwasher thing) builds with the correspondence by letter. Vagaries are in the right place. It's not something where some dude in the wood suddenly is fighting with glowing fungus arthropods that attacked his farm. It's something where an undefined thing is in the woods, causing problems. Then you find out stuff about it. Then all of a sudden, the writer of the letters is all "oh, yeah... we talked it out... these guys are actually pretty awesome... you should totally come over and chat with me about them in person." After we've built the suspense, there's a little more building, but now actual things are happening. Dude sends a little spider robot with somebody's brain in it crawling across the floor, IIRC. The ending puts in context that it's probably actually the pen-pal's brain in the canister, but we don't know that yet. Then (again descriptive) we also have the "cold" excuse for the mechanical voice and the blankets. And finally we have the big reveal. By the end of the story? You know what happened. All of it. The suspense was a matter of pacing the info, not withholding it.
I don't know though. Just my take on reading the stuff.
Quote from: blakkieI'm a bit surprised, I thought pretty much everyone that's spent time on the Internet had run into Gene Ray's little gem of a website. He's the proto Internet nutjob.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timecube
No, but I do thank you for the link. It opened my eyes to a whole new way to see the world. (and run screaming from people who see it that way...)
:)
Quote from: StuartInteresting.
I don't play a lot of videogames right now, and the wikipedia entry is about the sum total of what I'm citing from Chris and agreeing with. I can't really comment on his other writing or his "story game"... because I haven't read much of it. ;)
Basically my comment boils down to this:
What meaningful choices are the players making in the game, what is the challenge involved in those choices, and how does it affect winning the game?
If there are no meaningful choices, no challenge involved in those choices, or they have no bearing on whether or not you "win" / "lose" / "have more fun" / "have less fun" / "succeed" / "fail" then it's not really a "game" in the way I'm talking about.
Many choices players make in RPGs are Hollow, Obvious, Uninformed, or otherwise Inconsequential to reaching any sort of "Win" conditions for the game.
(Most RPGs side-step the "how you win" part of the game, or offload it to the players "make up your own games!" Confusion about how you "win" can in turn leads to all sorts of dysfunction if players think the goal is something different from the other people at the table.)
I think such rambling applies quite aptly to a number of genres, but rather misses the point of the subversive element of Mythos-inspired roleplay.
Quote from: J ArcaneI think such rambling applies quite aptly to a number of genres, but rather misses the point of the subversive element of Mythos-inspired roleplay.
This was in response to Sett's comment here (http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=174308&postcount=82).
Quote from: J ArcaneUmm, you do realize that Lovecraft literally wrote the book on the importance of vagaries in horror? It's one of his most famous non-fiction essays. And one of my personal favorite ways to describe good horror.
Do you have a link to that?
@beejaz:
reading the entrails of a dead fish = soothsaying
exeget = one who practices exegesis (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/exegesis): an explanation or critical interpretation of a text
Exeget is a slightly dersional term as there are religious connotations with that term.
Calling someone a Lovecraft exeget is alluding to the (undeserved) veneration that the person in question is displaying in regards of Lovecraft´s writing.
It´s some short stories, and that´s that.
So I´m saying, that there´s a lot of unhealthy Lovecraft-worship out there, that´s not in any way faithful to the genre of phantastic/gothic short stories that exist. I also wanted to point out, that science fiction does not produce a comparable level of inaneness in gamers that Lovecraft does.
QuoteI also wanted to point out, that science fiction does not produce a comparable level of inaneness in gamers that Lovecraft does.
I'm not so sure about that, but as far as rpg go
Traveller fanboys sure bring the inanenss, not to mention the dementia....
Regards,
David R
Quote from: StuartDo you have a link to that?
I don't know if it's online anywhere. I read it long ago in one of the many anthologies of Lovecraft stuff.
I GMed Shadows of Yog-Sothoth without having read a line of Lovecraft. I read Tolkien 15 years after I started playing D&D. Those games can perfectly stand alone as games, and there are much better books to read out there than their "inspirations."
Quote from: SettembriniI also wanted to point out, that science fiction does not produce a comparable level of inaneness in gamers that Lovecraft does.
Are you sure about that? There's a lot of inaneness that goes along with
Star Trek and Star Wars.
Not in RPG discussions.
Quote from: Settembrini@beejaz:
reading the entrails of a dead fish = soothsaying
Over here in NA that's more widely known as being done with sacrificed animals. Such as domestic fowl (chickens, geese, etc.).
Quoteexeget = one who practices exegesis (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/exegesis): an explanation or critical interpretation of a text
That's misspelled, it is suppose to have an 'e' at the end but I got that. I assume he did too since he didn't ask.
Quote from: David RI'm not so sure about that, but as far as rpg go Traveller fanboys sure bring the inanenss, not to mention the dementia....
Regards,
David R
:rimshot:
P.S. Bonus points if next time you suggest it's so endemic that all Traveller discussions should be banned to the OT forum.
Quote from: SettembriniNot in RPG discussions.
*snicker*
(http://lolcat.com/pics/rdymyship.jpg)
Oh fuck...the cats...
Quote from: J ArcaneI don't know if it's online anywhere. I read it long ago in one of the many anthologies of Lovecraft stuff.
Supernatural Horror In Literature (http://gaslight.mtroyal.ca/superhor.htm)?
Or maybe Notes on Writing Weird Fiction (http://www.fantastichorror.com/00/lovecraft-notesonwritingweirdfiction.html)?
Quote from: Settembrinireading the entrails of a dead fish = soothsaying
You learn something new every day.
Quoteexeget = one who practices exegesis (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/exegesis): an explanation or critical interpretation of a text
Exeget is a slightly dersional term as there are religious connotations with that term.
I'm going to pretend I knew that already... although the little red line under "exeget" indicates I'm missing something further. Exegete? Ah, no red line.
QuoteCalling someone a Lovecraft exeget is alluding to the (undeserved) veneration that the person in question is displaying in regards of Lovecraft´s writing.
It´s some short stories, and that´s that.
So I´m saying, that there´s a lot of unhealthy Lovecraft-worship out there, that´s not in any way faithful to the genre of phantastic/gothic short stories that exist. I also wanted to point out, that science fiction does not produce a comparable level of inaneness in gamers that Lovecraft does.
Ah, makes some sense now. Even if I disagree, being something of an Asimov fish exeget myself. I don't know if it's a general trend in science fiction, but it would be hard as hell to really be an Asimov exegete. The man wrote tons of books. Literally. And by literally I don't mean figuratively. You could weigh his collected works and it would be at least two tons, I'm sure.
EDIT: Reading the essays you linked. I am surprised and not surprised that Lovecraft read the Yellow Wallpaper. Fun story, that.
Quote from: beejazzAh, makes some sense now. Even if I disagree, being something of an Asimov fish exeget myself. I don't know if it's a general trend in science fiction, but it would be hard as hell to really be an Asimov exegete. The man wrote tons of books. Literally. And by literally I don't mean figuratively. You could weigh his collected works and it would be at least two tons, I'm sure.
From Greg Porter's hilarious
Macho Women With Guns, I now have to invoke the dreaded... Isaac Azathoth!
(http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/machowomenwithguns/img/isaac_azathoth.gif)
QuoteAnother extradimensional horror from the pages of science fiction. He is a big critter and is +3 to be hit because of his bulk, and has an inherent armor of 3. He has a hand to hand attack like a big thing, with a lethal damage of 3 and +5 skill. Isaac Azathoth does not move normally. Once each turn he may teleport to anywhere within 8 hexes, regardless of line of sight, and he is always counted as being stationary. Any hex he was previously in is filled with manuscripts that obscure visibility and impede movement. Anyone attempting to move through one of these hexes must roll less than their hand to hand damage or be trapped in popular literature for the rest of the turn.
Strength - 18
Dexterity - 8
Macho - 21
Quote from: jhkimFrom Greg Porter's hilarious Macho Women With Guns, I now have to invoke the dreaded... Isaac Azathoth!
Gods, man... what have you done?
EDIT: And can you help a bro out with a handy smaller version for a new avatar?
Quote from: beejazzGods, man... what have you done?
EDIT: And can you help a bro out with a handy smaller version for a new avatar?
Done.
(http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/machowomenwithguns/img/isaac_azathoth_s.gif)
Greg Porter is unique among men: a hilarious gearmonger.
Quote from: jhkimDone.
Thank you. And it fits so nicely.
Quote from: HaffrungIf by 'maturing' you mean 'losing his fucking mind'.
Yes dude, you are hardcore - a hardcore delusional nutcase.
:D :D :D :haw: Final proof that roleplaying drives you mad!
Quote from: Dr Rotwang!What has Old Geezer written? I'm not challenging, just -- man, I dunno what he's written.
The ones I know about...
He wrote a FASA Trek module (centered on Klingons IIRC).
He was the creator of the lovely Gelatinous Cube in D&D.
He had creative inputs for other D&D staples that I can't recall.
Quote from: PaladinCAHe was the creator of the lovely Gelatinous Cube in D&D.
Shut-the-hell-up. :haw:
Are you kidding?!
Quote from: PaladinCAHe was the creator of the lovely Gelatinous Cube in D&D.
Lemme guess: he ran out of minis, but happened to have some jello cubes to hand...
If he did, then good for him. I recall seeing the Cube in a list of worst D&D monsters and goggling, because I always thought it was one of the best.
Holy crap! For reals? Old Geezer gave us the gelatinous cube?
I thank you. Three of my characters curse you with their dying breaths.
TheRPGSite presents: A Very Special Tribute to Old Geezer
(http://www.angryflower.com/everyb.gif)
(from angryflower.com)
I love that comic. :keke:
I want to buy Old Geezer a beer now in thanks for the Gelatinous Cube.
Geezer wrote that FASA module???
Dale ? Is that you ?
- Ed
1) Okay, confession. I never read any of the stuff written by the guy in the original post, I simply called it a "crap game supplement" because a) I'm a smartass, b) most game supplements are crap (Sturgeon's Second Law) and c) it's a colloquialism, like saying "all this shit" when referring to my model railroad stuff.
2) Gel cube.. yep. It's actually the result of Gary misinterpreting my horrible attempt to describe a giant paramecium.
3) I also created the Giant Slug that appears in Greyhawk.
4) The FASA module was "An Imbalance of Power". (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0931787467/ref=nosim/waynesworldof-20) And my name's Michael, not Dale.
5) I'm not posting much because I've given up posting on fora for Lent (seriously).
Geezer - Do you know how many "KLINGON FANS" out there bought that module who didn't even play the RPG?
I had to explain the game terminology to some.
In Toronto one year I saw a young lady dressed up as that alien race - and wearing a Klingon tunic with her furry makeup.
- Ed C.
Quote from: Old Geezer2) Gel cube.. yep. It's actually the result of Gary misinterpreting my horrible attempt to describe a giant paramecium.
Ah, such misunderstandings are what great sessions are made of. :)
Quote from: KoltarIn Toronto one year I saw a young lady dressed up as that alien race - and wearing a Klingon tunic with her furry makeup.
When we lived in Toronto we were downtown waiting for the streetcar when a guy walked past dressed like Mr. Spock. I flashed him the "Live Long and Prosper" sign. He nodded solemnly.
After we got on the streetcar we saw him further down the street with his tricorder out, scanning a homeless guy.
:haw:
Quote from: StuartWhen we lived in Toronto we were downtown waiting for the streetcar when a guy walked past dressed like Mr. Spock. I flashed him the "Live Long and Prosper" sign. He nodded solemnly.
After we got on the streetcar we saw him further down the street with his tricorder out, scanning a homeless guy.
:haw:
Dude, that really was Mr. Spock and you were blowing his cover. (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0708419/usercomments) You should have helped him out by letting him know his toque had been blown off.
Quote from: WarthurAh, such misunderstandings are what great sessions are made of. :)
"I attack the gazebo?"