So what system would you like to see an Open Gaming or Creative Commons License for that currently doesn't have one?
That's a good question. Hmm.
Well, my first thought was Pendragon. Sure, the core game is Chaosium's BRP, but I'm more interested in the stuff unique to Pendragon. Specifically, the Traits and Passions mechanics.
Unisystem.
If someone besides Eden could publish them, we might actually see more than three books a year usable for my favorite system...
(Knightsky, not to derail but may I applaud your taste in music? Hardcore Johnny Cash fan here).
For doubly-selfish reasons: (that is to say, I'd probably/maybe publish something if they were available): GURPS3, BRP, and the R. Talsorian house-system circa Mekton II and TFOS would all be of interest. Probably some others, too, but those leap to mind.
For singly-selfish reasons (that is, for my own gamerly consumption ... I know groovy designers that would do great things with them): All of those listed above, plus Unisystem, GURPS4, the Hero System, BESM1 and/or BESM2, Alternity, and the old JB007 rules.
Alternity would be a good one. I loved that system.
Ummm...Storytelling. Id love to be able to release my own homebrew stuff for it and make money.
Unknown Armies...excellent game system, also an excellent setting, but I'd love to see Bill Bridges, Justin Achilli, or Monte Cooke play with it :)
I think the chaosium system as used in "Ringworld" would be great as a universal system.
HERO.
I'd also say James Bond 007, but my homebrew rips it off already without the benefit (or restrictions) of a license. That whole "you can't copyright game rules" thing, dontcha know.
I'd like more of the background/flavor text of certain d20 books that only have mechanics open to be open. Principally Portals & Planes.
Whether anyone wants it or not, I'm opening the StarCluster System. When I get a chance, I'm putting it in PD.
-mice
I'd like to see more games under a Creative Commons or Open Gaming License. I don't know if there are any off the top of my head that I would want exactly, but d20 proved that the model works...as long as the products are quality.
Although I suppose they would be, because unlike d20, which was tied to D&D, there wouldn't be as many people "pissing into the pot" so to speak.
Quote from: joewolzI'd like to see more games under a Creative Commons or Open Gaming License. I don't know if there are any off the top of my head that I would want exactly, but d20 proved that the model works...as long as the products are quality.
I'm not convinced that "the model works." In fact, I think it was a serious downfall to the industry as a whole and wound up socking gobs of money into one particular pot (with a smaller amount into several other pots and the rest sprayed around so that many, many pots got very, very little).
All the while, flooding the marketplace with crap from anyone with internet access, a laser printer and Adobe Acrobat.
QuoteAlthough I suppose they would be, because unlike d20, which was tied to D&D, there wouldn't be as many people "pissing into the pot" so to speak.
I'm still not convinced that the open source model works without vast amounts of external advertising dollars. You just don't see a lot of outside companies pumping money into the gaming market. It'll start "succeeding" (in a business sense) when you start seeing "Pepsi" and "McDonald's" emblems in the books. (...or in the pictures, particularly in a post-apoc game.)
I'm sorry to disagree, but the OGL and SRD are directly to blame for the "beginning of the end" of the RPG industry and are the biggest culprits for the nose-dive the market has taken in the past 12 - 24 months.
Quote from: joewolz[...] but d20 proved that the model works...as long as the products are quality.
Although I suppose they would be, because unlike d20, which was tied to D&D, there wouldn't be as many people "pissing into the pot" so to speak.
It's a double-edged sword, though. The pot-pissing is part and parcel of participation. Or, in less indulgently alliterative language: it "works"
because of the ties to D&D, and without those ties, there's no real reason to assume any other use of the model would achieve any kind of real sticking power.
Quote from: VellorianI'm not convinced that "the model works." In fact, I think it was a serious downfall to the industry as a whole and wound up socking gobs of money into one particular pot (with a smaller amount into several other pots and the rest sprayed around so that many, many pots got very, very little).
(...)
I'm sorry to disagree, but the OGL and SRD are directly to blame for the "beginning of the end" of the RPG industry and are the biggest culprits for the nose-dive the market has taken in the past 12 - 24 months.
I'm gonna say poppycock.
I think d20 challenged the smaller press games because it competed in their space. I have seen better quality in independant and small press games since the d20 license than before it, because it challenged those writers to do better to compete.
Quote from: VellorianI'm sorry to disagree, but the OGL and SRD are directly to blame for the "beginning of the end" of the RPG industry and are the biggest culprits for the nose-dive the market has taken in the past 12 - 24 months.
The market has taken a nose dive due less to d20 than to a complete breakdown of the three tier system, which is coincidental with d20. The paperback book distribution system melted down at the same time, and they didn't have anything to do with d20.
Don't be sorry to disagree, this board would suck if if all thought the same way!
Quote from: Caesar SlaadI'm gonna say poppycock.
I think d20 challenged the smaller press games because it competed in their space. I have seen better quality in independant and small press games since the d20 license than before it, because it challenged those writers to do better to compete.
The D20 glut created such a morass of crap in the market that the only things that were able to "survive" were those items that had the better marketing plans.
Unfortunately, the glut of D20 soured the bulk of retailers on experimenting beyond their "staples."
D20 is both
directly and
indirectly responsible for the implosion of the RPG market and IMHO precipitated the collapse of the three-tier economic model.
Quote from: Caesar SlaadI'm gonna say poppycock.
I think d20 challenged the smaller press games because it competed in their space. I have seen better quality in independant and small press games since the d20 license than before it, because it challenged those writers to do better to compete.
if you are saying that the d20 open license improved overall quality in the RPGs, I have to say::jaw-dropping:
IMO there hav been many, many more craptacular games pusblished under the d20 license than all of the small press non-d20 games (good and bad) combined and doubled.
Quote from: Mcrowif you are saying that the d20 open license improved overall quality in the RPGs, I have to say::jaw-dropping:
IMO there hav been many, many more craptacular games pusblished under the d20 license than all of the small press non-d20 games (good and bad) combined and doubled.
I'm not goint to make a claim with regard to the overall quality of d20 products... if you still count FFE, it's pretty hard to argue. Shit like FFE and nightshift certainly drug d20's average down. But there's some pretty sweet d20 products.
But I rather think you missed my point. My point is that NON d20 products seem better since the advent of d20, because they had to produce better quality to compete.
Quote from: Caesar SlaadBut I rather think you missed my point. My point is that NON d20 products seem better since the advent of d20, because they had to produce better quality to compete.
Plus, it seems to me that the RPG industry, such as it was, was pretty moribund before the advent of the d20/OGL. The surge and subsequent subsidence of d20/OGL product seems to me to have brought the industry back to just about where it was before 2000, at least as far as the number of new products, and as far as quality is concerned, what is coming out now is even better than ever. Games like Warhammer and Ars Magica released new editions, as did RuneQuest, and any number of new, exciting RPGs have been and are being released.
The collapse of gaming stores in large numbers is undeniable, though. Speaking just as an observer, it seems that too many of them may have bought far too heavily into d20/OGL and neglected to diversify enough to remain in existence when the d20/OGL bubble burst. So in that respect it hurt the industry. Maybe I'm wrong in that perception, so please correct me if I'm wrong, and detail what excatly did happen. But the games I'm seeing now, d20/OGL and non-d20/OGL, are better than I've seen in years and years.
Quote from: Caesar SlaadI'm not goint to make a claim with regard to the overall quality of d20 products... if you still count FFE, it's pretty hard to argue. Shit like FFE and nightshift certainly drug d20's average down. But there's some pretty sweet d20 products.
But I rather think you missed my point. My point is that NON d20 products seem better since the advent of d20, because they had to produce better quality to compete.
Ok, that make more sense. I think the low quality d20 stuff is mostly coming from PDF publishers. Not to say that all d20 are bad but there a number of terrible ones.
As far as the quality of Non-d20 games getting better:
I think that the higher quality is more based on the fact that self-publishing is much easier than it used to be. So, many new publishers are starting up in small press and some of them have really raised the bar for small press publishers. I really don't think competing with d20 open licenses had much to do with it.
Quote from: VellorianD20 is both directly and indirectly responsible for the implosion of the RPG market and IMHO precipitated the collapse of the three-tier economic model.
I disagree strongly with this. My personal take on it:
Magic: The Gathering (and the resulting CCG boom/bust, which altered distributors' priorities and expectations irretreivably) is what broke the three-teir system. Distributors had a choice between structuring themselves around things they could move [to individual retailers] by the half-a-pallet-full and things they could move by the half-of-a-smallish-boxful. They made the reasonable choice, but when the dust settled it left the whole works in a shambles.
Throughout the 90s (from that fateful summer of '93 onward) it was easy to see the damage happening (I was working both RPG-retail and as a designer at the height of those years) ... All the damage happened long before d20 came along.
I'm not a d20 fan; that's a matter of record. But d20 helped prop a crutch under the distribution system. It didn't heal it, by any means (it's broken forever, I suspect), but it has given it artificial life-support for now.
Ironically, of course, since d20 wouldn't exist if not for Magic: The Gathering.
Quote from: S. John RossIronically, of course, since d20 wouldn't exist if not for Magic: The Gathering.
Thus, an
indirect result, as I stated. ;)
I'd like to see the Mayfair Exponential Gaming System as an open license. I also love the system used in Marquee Press' long out-of-print Legendary Lives; I think it'd be perfect for a pulp adventure game.