Quote from: Caesar SlaadI'm gonna say poppycock.

I think d20 challenged the smaller press games because it competed in their space. I have seen better quality in independant and small press games since the d20 license than before it, because it challenged those writers to do better to compete.

The D20 glut created such a morass of crap in the market that the only things that were able to "survive" were those items that had the better marketing plans.  

Unfortunately, the glut of D20 soured the bulk of retailers on experimenting beyond their "staples."  

D20 is both directly and indirectly responsible for the implosion of the RPG market and IMHO precipitated the collapse of the three-tier economic model.

Quote from: Caesar SlaadI'm gonna say poppycock.

I think d20 challenged the smaller press games because it competed in their space. I have seen better quality in independant and small press games since the d20 license than before it, because it challenged those writers to do better to compete.

if you are saying that the d20 open license improved overall quality in the RPGs, I have to say::jaw-dropping:

IMO there hav been many, many more craptacular games pusblished under the d20 license than all of the small press non-d20 games (good and bad) combined and doubled.

Quote from: Mcrowif you are saying that the d20 open license improved overall quality in the RPGs, I have to say::jaw-dropping:

IMO there hav been many, many more craptacular games pusblished under the d20 license than all of the small press non-d20 games (good and bad) combined and doubled.

I'm not goint to make a claim with regard to the overall quality of d20 products... if you still count FFE, it's pretty hard to argue. Shit like FFE and nightshift certainly drug d20's average down. But there's some pretty sweet d20 products.

But I rather think you missed my point. My point is that NON d20 products seem better since the advent of d20, because they had to produce better quality to compete.

Quote from: Caesar SlaadBut I rather think you missed my point. My point is that NON d20 products seem better since the advent of d20, because they had to produce better quality to compete.

Plus, it seems to me that the RPG industry, such as it was, was pretty moribund before the advent of the d20/OGL. The surge and subsequent subsidence of d20/OGL product seems to me to have brought the industry back to just about where it was before 2000, at least as far as the number of new products, and as far as quality is concerned, what is coming out now is even better than ever. Games like Warhammer and Ars Magica released new editions, as did RuneQuest, and any number of new, exciting RPGs have been and are being released.

The collapse of gaming stores in large numbers is undeniable, though. Speaking just as an observer, it seems that too many of them may have bought far too heavily into d20/OGL and neglected to diversify enough to remain in existence when the d20/OGL bubble burst. So in that respect it hurt the industry. Maybe I'm wrong in that perception, so please correct me if I'm wrong, and detail what excatly did happen. But the games I'm seeing now, d20/OGL and non-d20/OGL, are better than I've seen in years and years.

Quote from: Caesar SlaadI'm not goint to make a claim with regard to the overall quality of d20 products... if you still count FFE, it's pretty hard to argue. Shit like FFE and nightshift certainly drug d20's average down. But there's some pretty sweet d20 products.

But I rather think you missed my point. My point is that NON d20 products seem better since the advent of d20, because they had to produce better quality to compete.

Ok, that make more sense. I think the low quality d20 stuff is mostly coming from PDF publishers. Not to say that all d20 are bad but there a number of terrible ones.

As far as the quality of Non-d20 games getting better:

I think that the higher quality is more based on the fact that self-publishing is much easier than it used to be. So, many new publishers are starting up in small press and some of them have really raised the bar for small press publishers. I really don't think competing with d20 open licenses had much to do with it.

Quote from: VellorianD20 is both directly and indirectly responsible for the implosion of the RPG market and IMHO precipitated the collapse of the three-tier economic model.

I disagree strongly with this. My personal take on it:

Magic: The Gathering (and the resulting CCG boom/bust, which altered distributors' priorities and expectations irretreivably) is what broke the three-teir system. Distributors had a choice between structuring themselves around things they could move [to individual retailers] by the half-a-pallet-full and things they could move by the half-of-a-smallish-boxful. They made the reasonable choice, but when the dust settled it left the whole works in a shambles.

Throughout the 90s (from that fateful summer of '93 onward) it was easy to see the damage happening (I was working both RPG-retail and as a designer at the height of those years) ... All the damage happened long before d20 came along.

I'm not a d20 fan; that's a matter of record. But d20 helped prop a crutch under the distribution system. It didn't heal it, by any means (it's broken forever, I suspect), but it has given it artificial life-support for now.

Ironically, of course, since d20 wouldn't exist if not for Magic: The Gathering.

Quote from: S. John RossIronically, of course, since d20 wouldn't exist if not for Magic: The Gathering.

Thus, an indirect result, as I stated.  

I'd like to see the Mayfair Exponential Gaming System as an open license. I also love the system used in Marquee Press' long out-of-print Legendary Lives; I think it'd be perfect for a pulp adventure game.