This is a split from the thread "There is no reason to play a nonhuman except to use stereotypes."

The title is intentionally ironic. I don't think there's any one thing that dvergar/dwarves should be like. I love Tolkien, and I recently ran a one-shot game in Middle Earth where all the characters are dwarves. However, I get annoyed at a tendency to insist that all fantasy needs to conform to Tolkien.

The current campaign that I'm playing in is a weird cyberpunk campaign loosely based on Norse myth. In it, the dvergar are a race native to Muspelheim and Svartalfheim that look like this:


http://clanless.wikidot.com/dvergar

In the campaign, dvergar are distinguished most by their need to eat flame, being largely immune to fire, their asymmetric mottled grey looks, and (for Muspelheim-native dvergar) their ability to conjure temporary material out of nothing. Dvergar are described as being so an inch or two shorter than human average, so their height isn't remarkable. Within variation, it is easy for a dvergar to be taller than a human.

I'm not saying that this is the one true version of dvergar. But I do think that people are often tied to Tolkien in largely unrelated fantasy. In early Norse myth, dvergar are highly magical creatures - sometimes considered the same as creatures called svartalfar (dark elves). They live underground and their home is Svartalfheim, and they may turn to stone in the light of the sun. They were associated with magical afflictions or madness, as well as crafted and possibly magic gold and jewelry.

Thus, Gygax's drow are one reinvention of dvergar -- and Tolkien's dwarves are another reinvention of dvergar. I think their association with the underground and riches of the earth is core to them, but there are a lot of possible variations.

Are there versions of dvergar, dwarves, and/or dark elves that stand out to others?

From Wikipedia:

QuoteDiversity and vagueness

Rather than existing a "true" single nature of a dwarf, they vary in their characteristics, not only across regions and time but also between one another in the same cultural context. Some are capable of changing their form entirely. The scholar Ármann Jakobsson notes that accounts of dwarfs in the Eddas and the section of Ynglinga saga regarding Sveigðir lack prominence in their narratives and cohesive identity. Based on this, he puts forward the idea that dwarfs in these sources are set apart from other beings by their difficulty to be defined and generalised, ultimately stemming from their intrinsic nature to be hidden and as the "Other" that stands in contrast with humans.

So, the choice is between mystical/magical/fairy-tale type of dwarf, and a sociological/mundane/Tolkien type of dwarf. Almost every game I've ever heard of or read tilts towards the latter, which inevitably, in this political climate, leads to leftist political ontologies being dragged in, which is about the least magical thing to happen to dwarves/dwarfs I can imagine.

That's all I have off the top of my head. Full disclosure: I don't run or play in games with dwarfs/dwarves. Not my thing.

Quote from: jhkim on February 06, 2025, 01:46:34 PMAre there versions of dvergar, dwarves, and/or dark elves that stand out to others?

The dwarrows of Tad Williams' Memory, Sorrow and Thorn series are quite evocative of this, being creatures who are established to be as fluid in crafting their own forms for the needs of their surroundings as they are in crafting items of magic.

It's insane how people think Tolkien invented something that existed thousands of years before (dwarves in ancient folklore).

There's dwarves and their many 'cousins' in my settings:

Duergar (evil dwarves)


Azers (fire dwarves)


Derro (half-dwarves)


Mythologically, dwarves have had numerous descriptions as the "race" draws its origins from numerous cultures (i.e., bearded dwarves are a manifestation of Germanic mythos, primarily). Many ancient cultures even depict dwarves as spirits lacking physical forms, although shape-shifting was a usual dwarven ability as well.

But we're in the Disney Age: people copy what's popular. So, regarding D&D dwarves, it's a Gimli kinda world. Gimli is what most people in the hobby imagine, whether it's consistent with the mythos or not.

I say, as usual, at our tables we make the rules, characters, settings and monsters whatever we want.

In The Hobbit there is a mention of evil dwarves that worked with goblins. I always saw them as akin to Chaos Dwarves from Warhammer Fantasy Battle with a wicked sense of humor that enjoy blowing things up.

Quote from: bat on February 06, 2025, 03:21:47 PMIn The Hobbit there is a mention of evil dwarves that worked with goblins. I always saw them as akin to Chaos Dwarves from Warhammer Fantasy Battle with a wicked sense of humor that enjoy blowing things up.

Chaos Dwarves sound cool from reputation, though I think Tolkien had something very different in mind.

As I recall, a significant fraction of the dwarves allied with Sauron, just like many humans did (Easterlings, Haradrim, Dunlendings). I've been running Middle Earth games that run closer to Tolkien canon. I think for my evil dwarves, I might play up their anti-elf feelings. They're militaristic and cynical, and ready to ally with anyone who will support them in throwing down the scheming and untrustworthy elves.

Quote from: Theory of Games on February 06, 2025, 03:18:27 PMIt's insane how people think Tolkien invented something that existed thousands of years before (dwarves in ancient folklore).

There's dwarves and their many 'cousins' in my settings:

Duergar (evil dwarves)


Azers (fire dwarves)


Derro (half-dwarves)


Mythologically, dwarves have had numerous descriptions as the "race" draws its origins from numerous cultures (i.e., bearded dwarves are a manifestation of Germanic mythos, primarily). Many ancient cultures even depict dwarves as spirits lacking physical forms, although shape-shifting was a usual dwarven ability as well.

But we're in the Disney Age: people copy what's popular. So, regarding D&D dwarves, it's a Gimli kinda world. Gimli is what most people in the hobby imagine, whether it's consistent with the mythos or not.

I say, as usual, at our tables we make the rules, characters, settings and monsters whatever we want.

He largely created the modern image of fantasy dwarves. I just looked it up and the Disney Snow White (which Tolkien hated) came out the same year as The Hobbit, in 1937. That's the other pop culture image out there. I think people are generally aware that they're involved with Norse mythology and have been around a long time.

Quote from: jhkim on February 06, 2025, 09:19:52 PM

Quote from: bat on February 06, 2025, 03:21:47 PMIn The Hobbit there is a mention of evil dwarves that worked with goblins. I always saw them as akin to Chaos Dwarves from Warhammer Fantasy Battle with a wicked sense of humor that enjoy blowing things up.

Chaos Dwarves sound cool from reputation, though I think Tolkien had something very different in mind.

As I recall, a significant fraction of the dwarves allied with Sauron, just like many humans did (Easterlings, Haradrim, Dunlendings). I've been running Middle Earth games that run closer to Tolkien canon. I think for my evil dwarves, I might play up their anti-elf feelings. They're militaristic and cynical, and ready to ally with anyone who will support them in throwing down the scheming and untrustworthy elves.

   I do agree and I am sure Tolkien had something else in mind, in that description in The Hobbit, where goblins are introduced, the goblins like engines of war and destruction and Chaos Dwarves, with their little rocket launchers and love of fire seemed a reasonable model in my noggin.

I hate to say it, but I think warhammer fantasy get closest to my ideal of dwarves (in as much as I know about the setting, which is very little). Long lived bearded underground-dwelers with a penchant for mining and weaponcrafting, ill tempered, clannish, grudge holding.

Why is the iconic weapon of dwarves, master miners and earthworkers, an ax? Why not something more suited to their usual environment like a pick? Easy. Elves live in trees.

OD&D Dwarves were mostly just... there. Make of them what you will. Same for the BX ones.

Even the AD&D Dwarves are mostly a blank other than mentioning they dwell in mountains and hills and mining.

QuoteRocky hills are the favorite abode of these sturdy creatures. Dwarves
typically bond together in clans which are not mutually exclusive or hostile
but are competitive.

Although only 4 or so feet tall, they weigh no less than 150
pounds due to their stocky muscular build. They live for no less than 350
years on average.

Individual settings and campaigns were whatever someone wanted them to be.

Greetings!

Dwarves. When considering Dwarves, for my world of Thandor, I have been very much traditionalist in outlook and interpretation. I have Celtic-Influenced Dwarves, and Norse-Influenced Dwarves. Then, there are Gray Dwarves, that live exclusively in subterranean realms. The Gray Dwarves are bearded, tattooed, and love jewelry. Like other dwarves, they are skilled in mining, engineering, blacksmithing, and jewel crafting. The Gray Dwarves are also more influenced by Magic, and embrace a religion focused on worshipping the God of the Underworld. The Gray Dwarves also eagerly practice institutionalized slavery, torture, and the ritual sacrifice of humanoids on basalt altars, lit by flickering braziers of torchlight. The Gray Dwarves practice a dark and savage religion, which embraces dark mysticism and ancient, Pagan rituals.

Dwarves are DWARVES, firmly rooted withing European History and Mythology. I have no use for modernistic "Deconstruction" of Dwarves, or any BS nonsense interpretation that depicts Dwarves as rainbow fucking bakers and masseuses.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

The mention of deconstruction and European roots made me think of different versions of dwarves in some D&D settings.

In Christopher Dolunt's Nyambe, there are versions of the original core races - with dwarves adapted as Utuchekulu. They are also bearded and squat, with wild black hair and blood-red teeth. They gain a bite attack in addition to standard D&D dwarf traits (stonecraft, axe use, ...), and are known for their ritual cannibalism.



In Gygax's Oriental Adventures, the Korobokuru (based on Ainu folklore) are a barbaric race who live in the wilds, with no connection to underground. They still have infravision but have wilderness skills instead of stonework detection. They are described as having arms and legs slightly longer in proportion to their bodies than humans. Most are bow-legged. Their arms and legs are hairy, and the men have sparse beards.



In my Lands of New Horizons setting, dwarves are one of the four core races of the Solar Empire - along with elves, humans, and orcs. Dwarves were the first race of the world, with a deep and magical connection to the earth, and are responsible for the amazing stonework of the Solar Empire (like Machu Picchu etc.). They were created before the Sun and Moon and stars were put in the sky. They are stat-wise the same as D&D dwarves, but there are some important distinctions in color:

• They don't have big beards and aren't particularly hairy. Incans have very little facial hair, and also the Incan underworld is associated with snakes, which doesn't make dwarves reptilian, but they are reptile-friendly.
• They don't use metal tools because there is no iron. So no picks or axes. They use maces and clubs like everyone else, but it isn't iconically theirs.
• They are grounded but also very magical - at least in connection with the earth. This is consistent with the mythic dvergar but not Tolkien dwarves.

I've also wondered about a version of dwarves that is more explicitly identified with the dokkalfar or svartalfar of Norse myth. The dokkalfar inspired Gygax's drow. Tolkien made dwarves and elves into polar opposites, but in Norse myth, dark elves typically are considered the same creature as dvergar. The dvergar are quite magical.




I don't think the choice is just Tolkien dwarves or deconstruction. There are a lot of varied options.

Quote from: Zenoguy3 on February 07, 2025, 01:19:46 PMI hate to say it, but I think warhammer fantasy get closest to my ideal of dwarves (in as much as I know about the setting, which is very little). Long lived bearded underground-dwelers with a penchant for mining and weaponcrafting, ill tempered, clannish, grudge holding.

Why is the iconic weapon of dwarves, master miners and earthworkers, an ax? Why not something more suited to their usual environment like a pick? Easy. Elves live in trees.

It bugs me that the axe is seen as the iconic weapon of dwarves, because it stems from imitation of a single character, Gimli. It's not even true in Tolkien that axes are the iconic weapon of dwarves. Thorin and company mostly used swords, while Dain's army used mattocks and broadswords.

Quote from: SHARK on February 08, 2025, 12:40:03 AMDwarves are DWARVES, firmly rooted withing European History and Mythology. I have no use for modernistic "Deconstruction" of Dwarves, or any BS nonsense interpretation that depicts Dwarves as rainbow fucking bakers and masseuses.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Why not stat out rainbow dwarves so you have new enemies to throw at your player's characters?  There's probably an entire stat book to be made out of these fucking woke critters. Most fantasy games could use another 0-1 HD critter.

Personally, in my aspiring game designer n00b but veteran player view, I view it as the job of the game system to set the stereotypes in whatever flavor you want and for individual players/GMs to break the mould as they see fit.  A relatively simple declaration at the beginning of the rules stating that those are just the typical examples of the type for the setting (dictating to what the "world" will respond typically) and that variations can and do exist is enough for me personally.