Quote from: Eric Diaz on October 28, 2023, 12:29:09 PM
The first, quintessential DMG has rules on all kinds of things, including:

- GM advice.
- Random tables for adventure/setting creation.
- Character rules (keen hearing, attack matrices, etc.)
- Interpretations, additions and explanations of existing rules (spells, weapons versus armor, etc.)

But nowadays we have books dedicated to GM advice, random tables, etc. Also, these things are not the same - GM advice is for learning random tables are for reference (usually).

And most player-facing rules (attack matrices etc.) are in the PHB.

5e has three sections: creating worlds, creating aventures, and messing with the rules. About 25% deals with magical items.

I'm wondering if PHB, DMG and MM are the best format for organization. I've been thinking of the BECMI model as an alternative, i.e., having books dedicated to the various "tiers" of adventuring. You don't even have to worry about domain management until level 9, you get more spells and options as you go, etc.

Then here is the original D&D:

- PCs.
- Monsters and treasure.
- Rules.

I have been guilty of mixing random table with essays and GM advice - organizing my little books by theme: monsters (including monster creation), magic, characters (including NPCs), settings, etc.

And single-book RPGs such as the RC, SotDL (including Pcs, rules, setting and monsters - leaving alt-rules and setting details for modules), etc.

What is your favorite format?

If you're buying a new RPG, how much GM advice do you need?

If this is compatible with most OSR stuff, do you need monsters and advice at all, or system rules would be enough?

In a game with a lot of content:
1 Player Facing Volume
1 DM / GM Facing Volume

In a game with less content:
1 Complete Volume

I have the 1E, 3.0E, and 5E D&D DMGs; as well as the PF1E stuff.  I like bits and pieces from all of them.  The 3.0E Manual of the Planes, addresses the extra planar stuff well; although it doesn't cover the Feywild, or Shadowfell.  They were both outlined, in the 4E Manual of the Planes; which I also have.  The question is; do you want an exhaustive volume, or do you want something more portable?

I don't know what should be in a DMG, but I've been coming around to the idea that "monster manual" type books shouldn't exist, by themselves.   Just a book full of monsters with no context for the setting feels wrong.   I would rather have that each setting/campaign book that describes the area of the world where people will be playing in, would also describe the monsters that you find.

Some basic rules for random encounters, guidance about how to run dungeons, advice about world building, advice about how handing out many or a few magic items changes things, suggestions for things that can plug into it. 

Oh, and tables.  Tables to simulate things, and explanations of what they are simulating and tips on how to change them to simulate something slightly different. 

The AD&D 1e DMG had a bunch of secret interactions where spells would, say, age you upon casting.  This type of discovery is absolute shit and should not be there.  By contrast, the AD&D 1e DMG mostly outperforms modern versions by a great deal.  The 2ed DMG and 3.0 DMG were both absolutely excellent.  The 5e DMG is quite good and I wouldn't be surprised if the 2024 update to it makes it absolutely shit.  Hell, they've actually errataed out useful sections already for political reasons, so I can't imagine things will improve.

Quote from: Banjo Destructo on October 31, 2023, 10:43:36 AM
I don't know what should be in a DMG, but I've been coming around to the idea that "monster manual" type books shouldn't exist, by themselves.   Just a book full of monsters with no context for the setting feels wrong.   I would rather have that each setting/campaign book that describes the area of the world where people will be playing in, would also describe the monsters that you find.

How would that work for a game without a defined setting such as D&D? If the game encourages DMs to create their own setting then publishing a selection of monsters with notes on best climate & terrain to use them makes sense. If the game is specific to a particular setting such as MERP then integrating the monsters into the setting makes perfect sense.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on October 31, 2023, 11:02:13 AM

Quote from: Banjo Destructo on October 31, 2023, 10:43:36 AM
I don't know what should be in a DMG, but I've been coming around to the idea that "monster manual" type books shouldn't exist, by themselves.   Just a book full of monsters with no context for the setting feels wrong.   I would rather have that each setting/campaign book that describes the area of the world where people will be playing in, would also describe the monsters that you find.

How would that work for a game without a defined setting such as D&D? If the game encourages DMs to create their own setting then publishing a selection of monsters with notes on best climate & terrain to use them makes sense. If the game is specific to a particular setting such as MERP then integrating the monsters into the setting makes perfect sense.

I know technically D&D "doesn't" have a defined setting, but ever since 3rd edition the default setting for D&D has been the Forgotten Realms.   And then there are other settings for D&D, so I guess you'd just have like... the "Forgotten Realms Setting Guide" which has the areas, information, monsters, player races, etc.    Then the "Ebberon Setting Guide" , etc.     

People who are going to make their own setting will always be able to take whatever is available and throw stuff together for what they want, whether there's a generic monster manual available or only setting guides that they use to modify and make their own.

Quote from: Banjo Destructo on October 31, 2023, 10:43:36 AM
I don't know what should be in a DMG, but I've been coming around to the idea that "monster manual" type books shouldn't exist, by themselves.   Just a book full of monsters with no context for the setting feels wrong.   I would rather have that each setting/campaign book that describes the area of the world where people will be playing in, would also describe the monsters that you find.

I've been thinking a lot about this lately.

I love the 2e MM but it is not useful for me, except for reference.

FEWER monsters would be more flavorful (as Ravenloft, Dark Sun, Carcosa and Ravnica have learned - no orcs, for example), and you can go a long way by giving a skeleton a bow and some armor.

I don't think having 300 monster entries is useful to choose your own monsters or create your own settings.

This is why I go with "monster type" in my monster book. I think if you treat every monster type like 2e did with dragons - or something even simpler - we could have endless monster variety in, say, 50 pages.

But, of course, an MM looks cool and could be nice to read or reference.

I wrote a lot about this recently. Maybe it is the season...

https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2023/10/castlevania-symphony-of-night.html
https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2023/10/quick-horror-tip-make-it-light-and.html
https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2023/10/skeleton-with-bow.html

1st) A walk through of combat having a player fighting a goblin and then a spell caster.  Show how the DM adjudicates rules when a player wants to try something not in the book.  Largest section, make sure its easy to understand and cover a number of scenarios so that a new DM feels completely comfortable doing comb at.

2nd) Discuss the dice and how stats work

3rd) Discuss combat mechanics (basic fights, grid, theater of mind, cr)

4th) Discuss how players run through a dungeon (light, traps, doors, rooms, party organization)

5th) Discuss magic items

6th) Discuss how to create magic items

7th) Discuss dungeon building

8th) Discus world building to support the dungeons (rumors, shops, town, city, country, ruler)

9th) Domain level play and politics for higher level play and handling player retirement in a world to give the world a sense of persistency

10th) Sources for inspiration (Appendix N), various VTT resources (Fantasy Grounds, Foundry, Owlbear Rodeo etc), various mapmaker software (dungeonfog, dungeondraft etc) and official video links supporting the DM.  You know chapter 1, show them a video of a DM running it with a player so they can see how combat is run.

All of these sections should have a decent amount of random tables to help the DM create the dungeon, world, planned encounter, random encounter, town or country.

Quote from: Banjo Destructo on October 31, 2023, 01:06:57 PM
I know technically D&D "doesn't" have a defined setting, but ever since 3rd edition the default setting for D&D has been the Forgotten Realms.

I don't know what 4e did, but 5e has a weird Forgotten Realms version that they consider their default.  The 3.X default was definitely Greyhawk though.

Quote from: Venka on October 31, 2023, 03:18:16 PM

Quote from: Banjo Destructo on October 31, 2023, 01:06:57 PM
I know technically D&D "doesn't" have a defined setting, but ever since 3rd edition the default setting for D&D has been the Forgotten Realms.

I don't know what 4e did, but 5e has a weird Forgotten Realms version that they consider their default.  The 3.X default was definitely Greyhawk though.

De Jure 3.x was Greyhawk. De Facto it ended up being FR.