Quote from: Drohem;548820It must spark my imagination in some way.

If the serial quoting is anything to go by, Drohem won this thread.

But yeah, seriously, nowadays I'm inclined to enjoy (or discard) games for what they are, as opposed to any sort of theoretical concern.

This is not to say theory doesn't have its place, just that life's too short to skip fun stuff over abstractconcerns. "OMG D&D totally fails at genre emulation!" Maybe, maybe not, but it's fun as hell and I'm good with that.

Quote from: talysman;548890Also a high priority for a system: can I play D&D with it? Somebody -- I forget who -- once defined an RPG as "something you could play D&D with". It's not as high a priority as "High variety, low effort" because it's not as narrow. There are lots of game systems I could play D&D with, but not all of them have high variety, and some that do require too much effort.

Quote from: gleichman;548912It's a pity you've fogotten who, because I think it's a very common mindset- especially on this board which is very tunneled-vision along the lines that only D&D is a RPG.

I think you're misreading the intent of the quote. It's not that only D&D is an RPG, but that any RPG, with only a minimal amount of house ruling, should be usable to play a D&D-style fantasy dungeon crawl. You can easily use GURPS or HERO to play D&D, for example (they even have supplements for that.) You could play D&D using the octaNe or InSpectres rules as-written. People have used all sorts of games that supposedly aren't RPGs, like Universalis, to play D&D.

"Something you could play D&D with" is probably the broadest definition of "RPG" ever made.

Anyways, I think I remember who said it, but can't find confirmation.

Quote from: talysman;548921I think you're misreading the intent of the quote. It's not that only D&D is an RPG, but that any RPG, with only a minimal amount of house ruling, should be usable to play a D&D-style fantasy dungeon crawl.

Nope, that's how I read it and what you said, if a game can't do "D&D-style fantasy dungeon crawl" it's not a RPG.

Very tunnel-visioned.

Quote from: gleichman;548924Nope, that's how I read it and what you said, if a game can't do "D&D-style fantasy dungeon crawl" it's not a RPG.

Are there an games that can't do a dungeon crawl in one form or another?

Quote from: gleichman;548924Nope, that's how I read it and what you said, if a game can't do "D&D-style fantasy dungeon crawl" it's not a RPG.

Very tunnel-visioned.

Really?

Name an RPG that can't do D&D.

People may be less narrow-minded than you think.

Quote from: The Traveller;548925Are there an games that can't do a dungeon crawl in one form or another?

One form or another isn't a "D&D-style fantasy dungeon crawl". Opening things up that much makes the statement true for any possible value of Game including I imagine Monopoly.

I'd have to say that the test would be taking a D&D dungeon crawl module,  just to pick one at random this one and running it without changes besides creature conversion.

Quote from: talysman;548932Name an RPG that can't do D&D.

Age of Heroes

Using the RAW, it doesn't have the instant healing required for a "D&D-style fantasy dungeon crawl", although it can do a "dungeon crawl in one form or another", i.e. say recreate the Fellowship's trip through Moria.

Quote from: talysman;548932Really?

Name an RPG that can't do D&D.

People may be less narrow-minded than you think.

Any game without a magic system will be hard pressed to do D&D. Or lethal games where a shot or two can kill you.

Quote from: talysman;548932Name an RPG that can't do D&D.

Quote from: gleichman;548940Age of Heroes

Using the RAW, it doesn't have the instant healing required for a "D&D-style fantasy dungeon crawl", although it can do a "dungeon crawl in one form or another", i.e. say recreate the Fellowship's trip through Moria.

Instant healing is in no sense a requirement for a "D&D style fantasy dungeon crawl". In the original rules, you couldn't even start out with instant healing. Is OD&D with 1st level characters an RPG?

Apparently not, by your definition.

Quote from: gleichman;548937One form or another isn't a "D&D-style fantasy dungeon crawl". Opening things up that much makes the statement true for any possible value of Game including I imagine Monopoly.

I'd have to say that the test would be taking a D&D dungeon crawl module,  just to pick one at random this one and running it without changes besides creature conversion.

That's a BS test. The problem is that the quote you objected to *is* very broad, which you can't accept, so you narrow it so much that hardly any RPGs could fit the definition. AND THEN you complain that whoever said the quote has "tunnel vision".

It's your criteria that has "tunnel vision".

You can't have it both ways. You can't change definitions and then criticize those definitions. If that definition is too narrow, there's only one person to blame.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;548943Any game without a magic system will be hard pressed to do D&D. Or lethal games where a shot or two can kill you.

No one said anything about duplicating D&D in all its particulars with another system. All that was said was: if you can take a system, adapt its existing mechanics to anything not listed, and play a game where adventurers go into a dungeon filled with fantasy creatures, fight them when necessary, and return with treasure, then it's an RPG.

Quote from: talysman;548959No one said anything about duplicating D&D in all its particulars with another system. All that was said was: if you can take a system, adapt its existing mechanics to anything not listed, and play a game where adventurers go into a dungeon filled with fantasy creatures, fight them when necessary, and return with treasure, then it's an RPG.

I may have missed earlier parts of the discussion then. That sounds like a pretty subjective thing to measure.

Quote from: talysman;548957Is OD&D with 1st level characters an RPG?

Not to my mind, and that applies to all D&D. But then again I hate the game, so I'm biased a bit.

I'm not interested in a open-ended definition that one can fit *anything* into, and since that's all everyone here but BedrockBrendan is interested in, I'll pass on further comment.

I think the problem is the words "can" and "can't".  Those are bright-line binary distinctions, but any game anywhere can be used for any game concept, if you house rule it enough (and "enough" may be synonymous with "still uses dice, but that's about it").

I've opined that (for example) "you can make any superpower with this system!" is true for all RPGs, superhero or otherwise; the only distinction is how much making-up-new-shit you're willing to tolerate, and everyone's going to have that line in a slightly different place.

Similarly, you can "do D&D" with any system, depending on how much you're willing to make up as you go. For this to be a useful discussion, it would help if people were to clearly say "this is where my line is, and this is where Game X crosses to the wrong side".

Here's an example: Many RPG systems lack mechanics for handling combat with any opponent that can't be modeled on the same scale as a human being (MRQ2/Legend and FATE are examples that spring to mind).  Does the fact that your PCs can't fight a large dragon or giant or purple worm without needing original mechanics count as not being able to do D&D?

As far as the mechanics go: they have to be fast, which probably means some sort of unified core mechanic. Looking something up in a book absolutely kills immersion for me, because it's so disruptive to the flow of play. More than about thirty seconds is enough to remind me that I'm not an adventurer, I'm a man sat at a table in a pub - and, truth be told, I've never found a rules decision that takes that long to arbitrate to be worth the time compared to winging it (Which a strong core mechanic, even just "pull a percentage off the top of your head", lets you do).

Quote from: daniel_ream;548971Here's an example: Many RPG systems lack mechanics for handling combat with any opponent that can't be modeled on the same scale as a human being (MRQ2/Legend and FATE are examples that spring to mind).  Does the fact that your PCs can't fight a large dragon or giant or purple worm without needing original mechanics count as not being able to do D&D?

This would be a key point for me in terms of realism too. Its a lot harder to set up a system that handles that sort of thing gracefully than most might imagine.