Quote from: Chris24601 on January 19, 2024, 02:18:14 PM

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on January 18, 2024, 04:52:28 PM

Quote from: Domina on January 16, 2024, 11:19:50 PM
Surely you guys understand that you don't need to own as many dice as you have in your pool right?

Then it becomes a reroll mechanic, not a die pool.

I mean, a fighter's 4 attacks for 1dX+Y damage each is basically a dice pool of how many successes (each dealing damage) you have on a target. It even has the typical dice pool trick of splitting your dice to make attacks on multiple targets in the same turn.

Nope. When you take multiple actions in a turn, your rank is reduced by 2 on all of them for every action beyond the first. No splitting involved.

Quote from: Domina on January 22, 2024, 12:13:40 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 19, 2024, 02:18:14 PM

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on January 18, 2024, 04:52:28 PM

Quote from: Domina on January 16, 2024, 11:19:50 PM
Surely you guys understand that you don't need to own as many dice as you have in your pool right?

Then it becomes a reroll mechanic, not a die pool.

I mean, a fighter's 4 attacks for 1dX+Y damage each is basically a dice pool of how many successes (each dealing damage) you have on a target. It even has the typical dice pool trick of splitting your dice to make attacks on multiple targets in the same turn.

Nope. When you take multiple actions in a turn, your rank is reduced by 2 on all of them for every action beyond the first. No splitting involved.

You do realize that there are more than one set of rules for dice pools (and other games)? 

The thing about dice pools is that it makes you a bit more conscious you're playing a game. You always are, of course - but if it's always percentile or 2d6 or whatever, then the mechanics start to fall into the background a bit and you focus on what's happening in the game. Whereas if you're rolling 3 dice now and 10 dice later, that multiple clatter makes it really obvious it's just a game.

A lot of DMing and rules systems in practice is concealing from ourselves the fact that it's all abstract, and that really the rules are resolution systems are just an elaborate version of, "Why does the horsie move in an L-shape and jump over other pieces? Because that's what the horsie does." Abstraction.

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 22, 2024, 08:20:26 AM

Quote from: yosemitemike on January 22, 2024, 03:19:27 AM

Quote from: Wisithir on January 17, 2024, 07:37:55 PM
Bespoke dice are a dice problem, not a pool problem, but they are magnified by pooling the dice

Are there are games that use bespoke dice that are not dice pool systems?  I can't think of one.

One could make a case for FUDGE/FATE. You roll 4dF (Fudge die is six-sides; with two +, two -, and two blank faces) as a randomizer and add that to your stat value to see if you beat the target number. You get a nice bell curve with a median result of your skill value as a result.

The reason I'd say not a dice pool is that you always roll 4dF for checks.

These do not really sound like dice pools though? Just rolling lots of dice, adding mods and either adding it all up or counting successes?

Quote from: Omega on January 22, 2024, 11:57:16 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 22, 2024, 08:20:26 AM

Quote from: yosemitemike on January 22, 2024, 03:19:27 AM

Quote from: Wisithir on January 17, 2024, 07:37:55 PM
Bespoke dice are a dice problem, not a pool problem, but they are magnified by pooling the dice

Are there are games that use bespoke dice that are not dice pool systems?  I can't think of one.

One could make a case for FUDGE/FATE. You roll 4dF (Fudge die is six-sides; with two +, two -, and two blank faces) as a randomizer and add that to your stat value to see if you beat the target number. You get a nice bell curve with a median result of your skill value as a result.

The reason I'd say not a dice pool is that you always roll 4dF for checks.

These do not really sound like dice pools though? Just rolling lots of dice, adding mods and either adding it all up or counting successes?

I was answering the question; "are there any systems using non-standard dice that aren't dice pool based?"

FATE/FUDGE was an example of a non-dice pool system, because you always use the same number or dice regardless of skill or other factors (the primary dividing point for me between a dice-pool and non-dice-pool system) and is actually just as fast a resolution system as rolling and adding 3d6 together (which is definitely not a dice pool system).

I wasn't trying to claim it as a dice pool game; the opposite was actually my intent.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on January 22, 2024, 08:25:05 PM
The thing about dice pools is that it makes you a bit more conscious you're playing a game. You always are, of course - but if it's always percentile or 2d6 or whatever, then the mechanics start to fall into the background a bit and you focus on what's happening in the game. Whereas if you're rolling 3 dice now and 10 dice later, that multiple clatter makes it really obvious it's just a game.

A lot of DMing and rules systems in practice is concealing from ourselves the fact that it's all abstract, and that really the rules are resolution systems are just an elaborate version of, "Why does the horsie move in an L-shape and jump over other pieces? Because that's what the horsie does." Abstraction.

Rather, constantly remembering modifiers to add to your d20 reminds you you're playing a game. Just rolling a single set of dice and then narrating based on that is far more immersive.

Quote from: Domina on January 23, 2024, 12:13:30 PMRather, constantly remembering modifiers to add to your d20 reminds you you're playing a game.

That can do it, too. GURPS4e was terrible for this. If you have to spend a lot of time looking up charts and calculating modifiers and the like, it all comes to seem abstract. The fewer the steps, the better for the purposes of forgetting it's all just an abstraction.

Good GMing can of course overcome this.

Quote from: Domina on January 23, 2024, 12:13:30 PM
Rather, constantly remembering modifiers to add to your d20 reminds you you're playing a game. Just rolling a single set of dice and then narrating based on that is far more immersive.

Ah yes. "Muh Immershun!"

The question of which system is more or less immersive is basically a variation of personal taste. Most players who find D20 "more immersive" do so because they have habituated themselves to it through extended use and the mechanics feel like they disappear. It's about like when you drive a car and the car starts to feel like an extension of your body.

This is not an inherent trait of either system; it's a product of the human brain and your experience level with one particular system.  Some people do have better natural affinity to certain mechanics than others, and some mechanics are not particularly immersive for anyone (but rolls for anal dimensions are a topic for another day.)

Dice pools do tend to be slower, and that can lead to a loss of immersion, but they can also do things which D20 systems can't--or at least seldom do--to increase immersion, and whether or not you appreciate these features depends a lot on your affinity to those specific vectors of immersion and how much time you spend with the system for your brain to wire into it.

I'm not comfortable with the phrase "immersion." What I mean is that the game mechanics fall into the background, rather than being prominent in your mind as you play.

For example, in a game like chess or poker, the game mechanics are very prominent as you play, because they're the entire point of the game. Whereas in a game like tennis, you're so busy chasing or anticipating the movement of the ball, you don't think about the exact rules. Of course the tennis rules are still there, but if you are skilled enough to have any chance at all of going more than a couple of exchanges then they'll be grooved into your brain so much you don't think of them.

This doesn't mean that tennis is more "immersive" than chess, it's just a different experience, one where the mechanics aren't foremost in the person's mind as they play.

For rpgs, the mechanics falling into the background doesn't mean you're "immersed" in the game. After all, the mechanics could fall into the background and you're just saying, "I hit him with my sword, pass the cheetos, by the way did you see the new MCU movie on the weekend?" 

Quote from: Omega on January 22, 2024, 11:57:16 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 22, 2024, 08:20:26 AM

Quote from: yosemitemike on January 22, 2024, 03:19:27 AM

Quote from: Wisithir on January 17, 2024, 07:37:55 PM
Bespoke dice are a dice problem, not a pool problem, but they are magnified by pooling the dice

Are there are games that use bespoke dice that are not dice pool systems?  I can't think of one.

One could make a case for FUDGE/FATE. You roll 4dF (Fudge die is six-sides; with two +, two -, and two blank faces) as a randomizer and add that to your stat value to see if you beat the target number. You get a nice bell curve with a median result of your skill value as a result.

The reason I'd say not a dice pool is that you always roll 4dF for checks.

These do not really sound like dice pools though? Just rolling lots of dice, adding mods and either adding it all up or counting successes?

Yeah, you have a pool of dice you roll to determine how well you perform. What were you imagining?

Quote from: Omega on January 24, 2024, 04:03:22 PM

Quote from: Domina on January 23, 2024, 12:13:30 PM
Rather, constantly remembering modifiers to add to your d20 reminds you you're playing a game. Just rolling a single set of dice and then narrating based on that is far more immersive.

Ah yes. "Muh Immershun!"

You don't have to post if you have nothing to say.

Two of my favorite games are dice pool. 

Mini-six Bare Bones is a simplified variant of West End Games D6 rules.  Simplified means four stats, not six, and combat defensive rolls are replaced by pre-calculated averages, cutting down the dice rolling in half, speeding up gameplay. 

The other is Dungeons & Delvers Dice Pool edition.  This is not a well known game, but it's based on classic D&D.  Five stats and twenty skills are all 1D4 to start with, but better ones use bigger dice.  Roll a Stat and a Skill dice to beat a target number.  Additional bonuses, like being good with a two handed weapon, or hearing an ally's Bard song allows you to roll extra dice, usually 1D4's to start with.  Roll them all, pick the best two, and that's your dice roll. 

I liked Delvers for more than that, but the dice mechanics are consistent and easy. 

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on January 22, 2024, 08:25:05 PM
The thing about dice pools is that it makes you a bit more conscious you're playing a game. You always are, of course - but if it's always percentile or 2d6 or whatever, then the mechanics start to fall into the background a bit and you focus on what's happening in the game. Whereas if you're rolling 3 dice now and 10 dice later, that multiple clatter makes it really obvious it's just a game.

I find this too. I find Free League 'Year Zero Engine' dice pool system very gamey & non-immersive, wherea their Dragonbane d20-roll-under BRP variant suits me very well. The funny thing is that with Banes or Boons you are often rolling multiple d20s & choosing the best or worst, not really all that different from YZE rolling lots of d6s & looking for 6s. But it feels different to me.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on March 07, 2024, 01:53:25 AM
Two of my favorite games are dice pool. 

Mini-six Bare Bones is a simplified variant of West End Games D6 rules.  Simplified means four stats, not six, and combat defensive rolls are replaced by pre-calculated averages, cutting down the dice rolling in half, speeding up gameplay. 

I love Mini Six but rolling lots of D6s & adding them up isn't a dice pool system per the OP, it has plenty of addition which OP says dice pools avoid.

Quote from: S'mon on March 07, 2024, 03:11:26 AM
I love Mini Six but rolling lots of D6s & adding them up isn't a dice pool system per the OP, it has plenty of addition which OP says dice pools avoid.

Quote from: Socratic-DM on January 08, 2024, 05:04:48 PM
As for Dice pools

My only main experience with dice pools is Westend's Star Wars,

?