Quote from: Baulderstone;963374Tolkien only got about one chapter into the sequel before realizing it was a bad idea. That says a lot.

T.H. White managed to write one of the greatest fantasy novels ever about the passing of an era of magic and heroism into history. If I recall right that is what Tolkein suggests happens to Middle Earth.

The worse RPG ever in my opinion Dungeons and Dragons*.

People try to use it for everything including shoehorning campaigns that have no business being level based or mini combat centric (for some editions). Not every game needs the same rules and a 1-20 class based system has limits.

The fact that it's so prevalent everywhere in gaming has kept some great games from getting the much deserved attention that could have springboarded some great innovations.

*not that it's badwrongfun, I've played it for decades. Just to dominant.

Quote from: HorusArisen;963447has kept some great games from getting the much deserved attention that could have springboarded some great innovations.

Like...?

Just curious.

Quote from: CRKrueger;963457Like...?

Just curious.

Do you know what my minds gone blank.

Mythras is obviously my sweetheart of choice at the moment. I'll post back on some others when I wake up properly.

I think what I'm really bemoaning is D&Ds market dominance keeping games like Runequest, Dragon Warriors etc being more visible and competitive prior to the interweb evening the playing field. The vast majority of games being played are D20 derived.

Nope I'm too fuzzy headed hopefully my point is coming across.

Setting-wise, Forgotten Realms.

System-wise, Shadowrun.

Quote from: HorusArisen;963461I think what I'm really bemoaning is D&Ds market dominance keeping games like Runequest, Dragon Warriors etc being more visible and competitive prior to the interweb evening the playing field. The vast majority of games being played are D20 derived.

Nope I'm too fuzzy headed hopefully my point is coming across.

I don't know if you can blame D&D for RuneQuest's problems. During the 2nd Edition era, it was doing just fine in the US, and was arguably doing better than D&D in the UK. It was the disastrous publishing deal with Avalon Hill that wounded RuneQuest. They printed it with the flimsy quality of a board game instruction booklet and charged insane prices for it. They also had their regular and deluxe version, which meant every supplement needed a section explaining the deluxe version in case a person with the regular version bought it.

In the UK, the Avalon Hill deal revoked Games Workshop's license to print the game. Fans there now needed to pay four times the price for the game and its supplements. Games Workshop was given the license again a few years later, but most fans had already moved on. Games Workshop had already developed Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay to fill the void left by RuneQuest, so while it no longer got the push from the company it once did.

Given all of this, it seems a little unfair to lay RuneQuest's decline on D&D.

Generic fantasy. Not going to mention a setting, but if it's stock, vanilla Tolkienesque fantasy consider my enthusiasm lukewarm. At least give it a little spin, please.

Quote from: Baulderstone;963471I don't know if you can blame D&D for RuneQuest's problems. During the 2nd Edition era, it was doing just fine in the US, and was arguably doing better than D&D in the UK. It was the disastrous publishing deal with Avalon Hill that wounded RuneQuest. They printed it with the flimsy quality of a board game instruction booklet and charged insane prices for it. They also had their regular and deluxe version, which meant every supplement needed a section explaining the deluxe version in case a person with the regular version bought it.

In the UK, the Avalon Hill deal revoked Games Workshop's license to print the game. Fans there now needed to pay four times the price for the game and its supplements. Games Workshop was given the license again a few years later, but most fans had already moved on. Games Workshop had already developed Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay to fill the void left by RuneQuest, so while it no longer got the push from the company it once did.

Given all of this, it seems a little unfair to lay RuneQuest's decline on D&D.

Nor was I. My point, I think is that better marketing and promotion hasn't necessarily led to the better product dominating the market. Either originally or now.

The only difference now is that you can rely on word of mouth to carry your product forward so finally we live in an age where other games can exist even if it's in the giants shadow.

Quote from: HorusArisen;963477Nor was I. My point, I think is that better marketing and promotion hasn't necessarily led to the better product dominating the market. Either originally or now.

The only difference now is that you can rely on word of mouth to carry your product forward so finally we live in an age where other games can exist even if it's in the giants shadow.

I stopped playing D&D in 1985, and I didn't play again until 2001. I played an enormous range of games in that time. The idea that other games couldn't exist is news to me.

Quote from: Voros;963443T.H. White managed to write one of the greatest fantasy novels ever about the passing of an era of magic and heroism into history. If I recall right that is what Tolkein suggests happens to Middle Earth.

My goodness, I have to disagree if you are referring to The Once and Future King; that was one of the most annoying books I've ever tried to slog through.

Quote from: Baulderstone;963479I stopped playing D&D in 1985, and I didn't play again until 2001. I played an enormous range of games in that time. The idea that other games couldn't exist is news to me.

Which still isn't my point. They may still exist but I can't help but wonder if we would have had greater variety and quality if a better game(s) had been the market leader. Like yourself I played many games but not many gamers did. I do think that has changed mind you.

Quote from: HorusArisen;963484Which still isn't my point. They may still exist but I can't help but wonder if we would have had greater variety and quality if a better game(s) had been the market leader. Like yourself I played many games but not many gamers did. I do think that has changed mind you.

That's like speculating about what it would have been like if a better show than Star Trek dominated sci-fi TV. Star Trek created the genre as we know it. Star Trek didn't overshadow Farscape and Babylon 5; it created an environment where the latter shows came to exist in the first place. When Star Trek is hot, everyone does well. When Star Trek is cold, everyone hurts. It's not that Roddenberry created the best show in its genre, it's that he created the genre, his show is its icon, and everyone and everything else lives downstream of it.

D&D is like that.

The internet allowed us to see what was cool about other old games besides D&D and build on it. So while Horus point is valid, it's not that relevant anymore.

Quote from: Baulderstone;963479I stopped playing D&D in 1985, and I didn't play again until 2001. I played an enormous range of games in that time. The idea that other games couldn't exist is news to me.

It's hyperbole, man. Arguing with hyperbole because it exaggerates is like arguing that the sun is wrong to be radiant:).

Quote from: Itachi;963497The internet allowed us to see what was cool about other old games besides D&D and build on it. So while Horus point is valid, it's not that relevant anymore.

True, that;).