Quote from: Silverlion;790781Hearts & Souls! High Valor!

Well, I love OSR, but I haven't written one..yet anyway.

Hearts & Souls and High Valor are nowhere near as non-OSR as Tools of Ignorance or High Strung, Tim! You can't even fight anything in either of these games. No weapons, no spells, no fisticuffs, no monsters, no XP, no HP. And they are both actual RPGs as defined here.

-clash

Quote from: Nerzenjäger;795610Play D&D, RuneQuest, CoC. Then play Fiasco. The differences should be obvious.

Yeah, but most cases are nowhere near that cut and dry. Fiasco is an extreme case.

Honestly, there are a lot of games that have more in common with D&D than Fiasco that are considered storygames on this site.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;795784Yeah, but most cases are nowhere near that cut and dry. Fiasco is an extreme case.

Honestly, there are a lot of games that have more in common with D&D than Fiasco that are considered storygames on this site.

It's because it's not an exclusive-or situation. Games can be RPGs, storygames, or a mixture of both.


But then, I disagree with sentiment up-thread that an emphasis on collaboratively telling a story is the defining feature of a storygame. You can do that with D&D as written, if you have a mind to. To me, it's mechanics that directly affect the story level or that regulate player interactions that make a game a storygame. For example, InSpectres has players roll for narrative control, and earning a set number of "dice" determines when the "story" ends, so it's a storygame... but players still primarily affect the game world through the actions of their individual characters, and the GM decides which actions require a roll and which situations can trigger stress, so it's still a roleplaying game.

(EDIT TO ADD:My point being that people are calling some games "storygames", even if they are closer to D&D than to Fiasco, because they recognize storygame elements, even if some of those people might not recognize that those games are also roleplaying games.)

Quote from: talysman;795795But then, I disagree with sentiment up-thread that an emphasis on collaboratively telling a story is the defining feature of a storygame. You can do that with D&D as written, if you have a mind to. To me, it's mechanics that directly affect the story level or that regulate player interactions that make a game a storygame.

I think if you reread the sentiment upthread you'll find thats exactly what was said

Quote from: talysman;795795(EDIT TO ADD:My point being that people are calling some games "storygames", even if they are closer to D&D than to Fiasco, because they recognize storygame elements, even if some of those people might not recognize that those games are also roleplaying games.)

Does not matter. The moment the game is about collaborative storytelling, it's a Storygame. It may have +1 swords, but a RPG it is not.

In D&D you don't tell stories, you play a game out of which a story might emerge afterwards ("Hey Sal, remember that one time my barbarian had a menage-a-trois with a succubus and a type vi demon?"). It's not that hard to understand.

Quote from: talysman;795795It's because it's not an exclusive-or situation. Games can be RPGs, storygames, or a mixture of both.

I agree. I was mostly pointing out that the simplicity of "Fiasco is a Storygame, D&D is a Roleplaying game" was such an oversimplification of the situation as to be completely useless in determining what that means.

No one is confused by the extremes.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;795804I agree. I was mostly pointing out that the simplicity of "Fiasco is a Storygame, D&D is a Roleplaying game" was such an oversimplification of the situation as to be completely useless in determining what that means.

No one is confused by the extremes.

Useless only if misrepresented like you did. I didn't only say D&D -- and this for a reason.

Quote from: Nerzenjäger;795808Useless only if misrepresented like you did. I didn't only say D&D -- and this for a reason.

You selected several games that were 100% traditional rpgs, and one game that was 100% storygame.

Your statement was pointless because it only deals in the far extremes. The murkiness is always in the middle, not on the far end points. And I can play a bunch of games that I'm sure you consider Storygames that are way way way more like the traditional RPGs you mentioned than they are like Fiasco. So it in no way helps categorize anything, or explain your position.

Hence: your statement means pretty much nothing.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;795812You selected several games that were 100% traditional rpgs, and one game that was 100% storygame.

Your statement was pointless because it only deals in the far extremes. The murkiness is always in the middle, not on the far end points. And I can play a bunch of games that I'm sure you consider Storygames that are way way way more like the traditional RPGs you mentioned than they are like Fiasco. So it in no way helps categorize anything, or explain your position.

Hence: your statement means pretty much nothing.

Would you care to name them (or any one) and offer an explanation? For sake of discourse I am willing to concede, that my views on what a Storygame is are rather strict. The way you are talking about these 'murky' games I find it hard to understand; are they only like RPGs or are they RPGs?

WARGAME with RPG ELEMENTS
Warhammer Fantasy Battles 3rd Edition, OD&D + Chainmail

*
1ST GENERATION RPG (Wargames Elements)

Dungeons & Dragons, Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 1E

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2ND GENERATION RPG (Heightened Focus on Role-Playing)
Marvel Superheroes (FASERIP), D6, Amber Diceless

*
3RD GENERATION RPG (1 or 2 Storygame Elements, Narrative focus)
White Wolf WoD, Ars Magica, FATE 2nd Ed

*
PROTO-STORYGAME (RPG with heavy amounts of Storygame mechanics)
FATE 3rd Ed, Hero Quest, Story Bones

*
1ST GENERATION STORYGAME (Heavy RPG Elements)
Apocalypse World, Marvel Heroic Roleplaying

*
2ND GENERATION STORYGAME (Few RPG Elements)
Fiasco, Smallville, Bliss Stage

*
PURE STORYGAME
Adventures of Baron Munchausen, Once Upon A Time


(note that "generations" here does not imply time or heredity, merely distance in concept)

Quote from: Nerzenjäger;795803Does not matter. The moment the game is about collaborative storytelling, it's a Storygame. It may have +1 swords, but a RPG it is not.

In D&D you don't tell stories, you play a game out of which a story might emerge afterwards ("Hey Sal, remember that one time my barbarian had a menage-a-trois with a succubus and a type vi demon?"). It's not that hard to understand.

You say it's not hard to understand but this statement makes no sense to me. So does that mean all the RPGs powered by the Apocalypse are not RPGs under this definition? I'll point to Dungeon World first in this list of games as it is collaborative storytelling with +1 swords.

Quote from: Certified;795830You say it's not hard to understand but this statement makes no sense to me. So does that mean all the RPGs powered by the Apocalypse are not RPGs under this definition? I'll point to Dungeon World first in this list of games as it is collaborative storytelling with +1 swords.

Dungeoneworld is an RPG, as decided finally here last year or so in a very large debate. This is because, despite its inheretance from AW, it does not in fact remove/redistribute powers of the GM and does not hinder player from immersive roleplay during the game.

Quote from: TristramEvans;795833Dungeoneworld is an RPG, as decided finally here last year or so in a very large debate. This is because, despite its inheretance from AW, it does not in fact remove/redistribute powers of the GM and does not hinder player from immersive roleplay during the game.

For some reason this comment makes me thing of Dog Eat Dog and the unspoken GM/Player contracts.Oh, also another good candidate for least OSR game.

Quote from: TristramEvans;795833Dungeoneworld is an RPG, as decided finally here last year or so in a very large debate. This is because, despite its inheretance from AW, it does not in fact remove/redistribute powers of the GM and does not hinder player from immersive roleplay during the game.

Without having read the thread, I can subscribe to that. There's a bunch of RPGs that rely heavily on metagaming and disassociated mechanisms (I guess this is where the distinction between Trad and Modern RPGs is usually made).
I'm just baffled, that people are quick to accuse someone of demagoguery just for making a clean and honest distinction between types of games.

Quote from: Certified;795830You say it's not hard to understand but this statement makes no sense to me. So does that mean all the RPGs powered by the Apocalypse are not RPGs under this definition? I'll point to Dungeon World first in this list of games as it is collaborative storytelling with +1 swords.

The +1 sword was just a rhetoric figure. DW certainly is a RPG, I have played it, even though I wouldn't run it.