Quote from: Larsdangly;793018I don't know anything about these games or their authors; do they actually have these sorts of pretensions?

I know at least a couple of very decent people who think that what they do when they roleplay is art (and probably many more who haven't specifically articulated that to me). Maybe not high art the equal of Shakespeare or a Rembrandt, but artistic nonetheless.

I seem to recall a post in the particular thread where *that* Poison'd game was discussed where the person used words along the lines of cathartic or moving or deep or somesuch. That's obviously a very different thing, more a case of emotional release than self-validation. Of course searching for poignancy could straddle both camps.

Quote from: Larsdangly;793018I don't know anything about these games or their authors; do they actually have these sorts of pretensions?

Sadly, yes. I didn't have anything against the Forge or the theory-wanks on RPGnet (besides thinking they were wrong) until I read a session report of Poison'd posted by designer Vincent Baker. It was deeply disturbing. Not simply because of the content of the session, which frankly wasn't all that different from what especially foul-minded 13-year-olds have been known to indulge in. No, the really creepy part was how Baker described the intense emotional catharsis of playing the game, and how he and the other participants (30-something adults, all) put their arms around one another and looked into each other's eyes and shared something nobody else will ever know. That freaked me out. And the fact the Forgists and theorywanks rallied around him and supported his pretensions of the therapeutic value of  role-playing depravity in loving detail is what showed me what utter douchebags they were. So desperate to set themselves above normal RPGers that they'll sanction behaviour most 15-year-olds would cringe at in embarrassment as long as its presented as 'art'. I can't imagined how damaged a person must be to seek out that sort of catharsis, and not have the judgement or frame or reference to recognize how debased it is. Surely some of the Forgists could see how unhealthy it was, but they closed ranks because belonging to the cool club is more important than being a healthy, decent adult.

Quote from: RPGPundit;793017Yup, but remember kiddies, Zak S. and James Desborough are toxic perverts who are responsible for rape culture in RPGs.

The guys who like Poison'd and Maid? Oh no, you see, they're socially-conscious ARTISTS, so they're allowed to play out scenes of throatfucking a cabin boy or molesting a prepubescent maid with a broom handle.  Because they're the educated elite, they don't need to follow the very rules they seek to forcibly imposed on those they consider their inferiors.

Indeed.

Seriously, how can anyone look at a game with qualities like "lolita" "likes them young" and 'magic items' such as "murder condoms" and give it a free pass?

Not to mention a ridiculous focus on what type of outfit you're wearing. Puke.

My real problem with Forge and its theories is that they had absolutely no wish to do any real theory work. Such work indicates willingness to look at gaming related literature and studies about them.

The real consequence is that they gave theory a bad name and thus there is very little interest to actually look at the theory and build up games using solid foundation of game design. This is in stark contrast to computer gaming where real theory work is being done and it is reaping results in training programs.

Quote from: RPGPundit;792124No, but any game done by Ben Lehman is bad by itself regardless.

I really want to support Ben Lehman doing new and interesting things with the medium of Roleplaying Games.

However, trying to buy Polaris was the single worst RPG purchasing experience I've ever had. I paid him through his website, then he ignored my emails for four months until I tracked him down on facebook and called him a hypocrite, because he was in the middle of a big internet brew-ha-ha over accusing some publisher of not paying their artists or something. (Margaret Weiss, maybe?) Even then he excused himself about being busy and then just gave me my money back.

Still don't have the damn game.

So, I find it just a little harder to support new and interesting things in the medium of Roleplaying Games because of Ben Lehman.

//Panjumanju

Wow; I had no idea that stuff was out there. I can't think of a more repulsive combination of depravity and pretension. It sounds like these guys are one photograph away from a felony.

Quote from: Larsdangly;793055Wow; I had no idea that stuff was out there. I can't think of a more repulsive combination of depravity and pretension. It sounds like these guys are one photograph away from a felony.

And Maid is an RPGnet darling. The 4chan dweebs seem to be quite big into the paedophilia.

Quote from: S'mon;793059And Maid is an RPGnet darling. The 4chan dweebs seem to be quite big into the paedophilia.

and yet F.A.T.A.L. gets such a bad rap...

Quote from: One Horse Town;793030Indeed.

Seriously, how can anyone look at a game with qualities like "lolita" "likes them young" and 'magic items' such as "murder condoms" and give it a free pass?

Not to mention a ridiculous focus on what type of outfit you're wearing. Puke.

Indeed ! What is also very off-putting is their liking/promoting of the most egregious aspects of the patriarchal culture of Japan. I can't understand how they could call themselves feminists and things like that and give Maid a free pass.

And the whole 9 years old sexual conquest game goal is such a disgrace !

The diceless stuff?  Amber?  Or Rolemaster, if we want to head in the direction of parody?

I'll second, or third, Amber. It's not just the lack of dice either. The major game play aspects of osr, dungeoncrawling/killing things and taking their stuff, just don't work in Amber.

Quote from: RPGPundit;793017Yup, but remember kiddies, Zak S. and James Desborough are toxic perverts who are responsible for rape culture in RPGs.

The guys who like Poison'd and Maid? Oh no, you see, they're socially-conscious ARTISTS, so they're allowed to play out scenes of throatfucking a cabin boy or molesting a prepubescent maid with a broom handle.  Because they're the educated elite, they don't need to follow the very rules they seek to forcibly imposed on those they consider their inferiors.

One difference that may be worth pointing out between Poison'd and Maid is that one punishes you mechanically for every horrible act you commit and has triggers to adjust the overall narrative for being a bastard, the other implies it's perfectly alright to do these things, worse, it puts the GM in a position of disturbing power to play out their fantasies while the players endure them.

Quote from: RPGPundit;793017Yup, but remember kiddies, Zak S. and James Desborough are toxic perverts who are responsible for rape culture in RPGs.

The guys who like Poison'd and Maid? Oh no, you see, they're socially-conscious ARTISTS, so they're allowed to play out scenes of throatfucking a cabin boy or molesting a prepubescent maid with a broom handle.  Because they're the educated elite, they don't need to follow the very rules they seek to forcibly imposed on those they consider their inferiors.

  *Shrug* From my point of view, it's very much Savage Pagan Barbarians against Decadent Pagan Romans, and there aren't that many differences between, say, Carcosa and Exalted based on what I've heard about both.

Hmm, I'd have to go with Chess.

Quote from: TristramEvans;791361Its one of the few games that I would agree with Pundit in saying it's not actually an RPG. Not saying its a bad game, but it definitely makes no attempt to facillitate (and mostly gets in the way of) "roleplaying".

On the contrary, you have to consider how your character's traits relate to the current situation before you can roll the dice. In OSR games I can just keep rolling to attack without any of that, which might not be the best tactic, but it's an option. And since Marvel Heroic Roleplaying can be reduced to a game of Martian Yahtzee in the same way Dungeons & Dragons can be reduced to a Tactical Miniatures game, it's hard to argue one is any more of an RPG than the other.

Quote from: Larsdangly;793018I don't know anything about these games or their authors; do they actually have these sorts of pretensions?

Yes.