Quote from: The Thing on May 26, 2021, 10:03:21 PM
Also, a major factor in TTRPGs going downhill is the way the COG (Corporate Overlord Government) is dumbing down the population by basically making everything dumber and attacking intelligent people.

That's a very comforting and self-serving worldview matt. If I didn't know you better, I would assume you are trolling.

Hmm, 'cute' little snarky ad hominen on me, not one thing about the post itself.

Also anyone who hasn't be lobotomized by corporate media spew can plainly see that most forms of media are being dumbed down and this has to affect the people watching it, i mean the only way you couldn't see it if if you watch so much it's lowered your I.Q...

Oh, never mind then.

What is ruining D&D and pretty much everything else?

The current iteration of Moral Guardians and fake Feminists. That is it. That is all.

If they were not infesting everything and spreading their cult far and wide the businesses would not be doing half the stupid things they are now. Though with WOTC that would still be pretty bad most likely because with WOTC failure is the only option. Publishers dumbing down games has been a thing since well before D&D. Its just become another marketing mantra now that "players are too stupid to understand complex concepts."

This is just more of the same problems we faced vs the 70s and 90s iterations of this. Just magnified to monsterous proportions this time with the help, again, of marketing who are pushing woke agenda relentlessly along with the other neo-religious mantras marketing worship.

Quote from: The Thing on May 27, 2021, 12:08:19 AM
Hmm, 'cute' little snarky ad hominen on me, not one thing about the post itself.

Yes.  Because it would be like me trying to argue with a wino-bum about him not being the emperor of the invisible mole amazons.
Arguing against worldviews that exist largely to validate yourself (me ahm so smar cuz I liek dem star traks and gOOrps) is largely a waste of time.

It's generally more entertaining to watch you embarrass yourself.

You simply cannot talk about corporatisation of D&D or pop-culture media more generally, withou acknowledging the huge amount of complicity that fandom has in this process.

It may have been corporates who decided that media properties should be called "franchises", but it was fans who embraced it, and now use it to talk about pop-culture as if they're Harvard Business School students.

There's a deeply intertwined relationship with corporate capitalism what's convenient for it, and fandom.

This is why I have to agree that embracing the OSR is probably the best answer.  Loyalty to corporate properties (D&D, Star Wars, Marvel whatever) needs to stop if you want things to improve.  If you want people to stop serving you shit you need to stop eating it first.

Deleted double post.

Quote from: TJS on May 27, 2021, 01:01:36 AMIt may have been corporates who decided that media properties should be called "franchises", but it was fans who embraced it, and now use it to talk about pop-culture as if they're Harvard Business School students.

Yes, this sickens me more than the rebooting itself.
When something reaches mass appeal, it will always be dumbed down, because mass appeal sells.

Don't ask for mass appeal, and stop being loyal to a soulless IP.

As much as it is important to try to wean people off of being passive consumers who buy product and get excited for next product, it's also relevant to acknowledge that this type of behavior is embedded in human nature. Rather than blaming people for being people, it's worth considering that maybe some of the social agreements we have re: copyright, trademark, corporations, and other involved issues should be updated.

Whether we like it or not, things like comic books, D&D, even certain shows and cartoons are cultural fixtures that we use to relate to other people, form bonds and explore moral & philosophical ideas.
Characters like Superman and Batman are almost a century old. That's 5 generations of people who have grown up with these characters but have no meaningful ability to actually engage with the mythos. At a certain point it's no longer morally justifiable to allow fictitious legal entities to control public myth & legend.

Imagine a world where D&D is actually in the public domain where it belongs. We wouldn't have to have conversations about how a fictitious legal entity (WotC) is terrorizing its own playerbase. Things would be wild, crazy, and in that place we'd see a ton of new ideas growing up and forming their own unique identity.

Quote from: Zelen on May 27, 2021, 02:23:52 AM
As much as it is important to try to wean people off of being passive consumers who buy product and get excited for next product, it's also relevant to acknowledge that this type of behavior is embedded in human nature.

Literally, all human behaviour is human nature. That can be used to excuse any and all behaviour. That's a non-argument even.
The stuff you mention as 'Deep cultural fixes' are that way largely due to marketing. Have it fall into the public domain and it will be forgotten overnight and remembered only as a niche thing. This isn't greek tragedy or shapespearean comedy. These are mass consumer products that people have attached their identity in consuming in lieu of producing on their own.

Related to D&D: People have their own new ideas with it all the time as well. Public domain would have these characters just be utterly forgotten. Not 'inspire people to new ideas'.

Edit: Just to be clear I would PREFER they fall into public domain. So they would all die. But thats a bitterness angle from me.

D&D basically is in the public domain.

While there is some really cool stuff that isn't (such as illithid which is a bit of a loss), by and large I think the OSR has shown that being able to reinvent and not beholden to cannon is a net win.

If the OSR had been able to use Grumsh and Corellon Larethion and Greyhawk and the Forgotten Realms I think it would be less than it is.

I would agree with putting Star Wars in the public domain - at the very least it would allow a generation to get it out of their system by ruining their own childhoods rather than relying on Disney to do it for them.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 27, 2021, 02:50:10 AM

Literally, all human behaviour is human nature. That can be used to excuse any and all behaviour. That's a non-argument even.

Sure, but the point is human nature is shaped by our social agreements. Social agreements about how big & powerful fictitious legal entities are allowed to get, what type of rights that fictitious legal entities hold (or don't), ownership of "ideas", and so on. These are highly arbitrary agreements that we can easily change when they are causing harm to society as a whole.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 27, 2021, 02:50:10 AM
Have it fall into the public domain and it will be forgotten overnight and remembered only as a niche thing. This isn't greek tragedy or shapespearean comedy. These are mass consumer products that people have attached their identity in consuming in lieu of producing on their own.

I think you're mischaracterizing Greek plays and Shakespeare by pretending like they're innately higher art forms. Sure, most of our pop culture is crass tripe, but the art that endures has to be both popular and speak to something higher. There's absolutely gems buried in mass consumer art.

Anyway it seems we mostly agree. Obviously letting things pass more easily into public domain doesn't fix every problem, but it does fix the problem of corporations owning the better part of the creative output of the last century. That needs to be fixed undoubtedly, and if that helps wean people off of endless regurgitations of the same IP then all the better.

Quote from: Zelen on May 27, 2021, 03:58:59 AMSure, but the point is human nature is shaped by our social agreements. Social agreements about how big & powerful fictitious legal entities are allowed to get, what type of rights that fictitious legal entities hold (or don't), ownership of "ideas", and so on. These are highly arbitrary agreements that we can easily change when they are causing harm to society as a whole.

I don't believe it's the government's role to protect people from their own stupid decisions. In this case, I don't think copyright law is at fault for a dependant consumer mentality.
I see it as pathetic, that 'Toy Commercial CGI explosion' is seen as some kind of valuable social element on the level of historic myths.
I believe that THIS is the problem. It's not just some pulp trash - it's worthy of sacred elevation!
And yes, I will say historical writings with themes, morality elements, and relations to religious and historical elements are a higher form of art then 'The adventures of captain wonderbread'.

Quote from: TJS on May 27, 2021, 01:01:36 AM
You simply cannot talk about corporatisation of D&D or pop-culture media more generally, withou acknowledging the huge amount of complicity that fandom has in this process.

It may have been corporates who decided that media properties should be called "franchises", but it was fans who embraced it, and now use it to talk about pop-culture as if they're Harvard Business School students.

There's a deeply intertwined relationship with corporate capitalism what's convenient for it, and fandom.

This is why I have to agree that embracing the OSR is probably the best answer.  Loyalty to corporate properties (D&D, Star Wars, Marvel whatever) needs to stop if you want things to improve.  If you want people to stop serving you shit you need to stop eating it first.

Yes, which is why pirating books is almost as bad as purchasing them. The few dollars lost on grognard pirates isn't going to negatively affect Hasbro: the corporate suits are gleeful that you too are encouraging the popularity of their product.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 27, 2021, 10:00:41 AM

Quote from: Zelen on May 27, 2021, 03:58:59 AMSure, but the point is human nature is shaped by our social agreements. Social agreements about how big & powerful fictitious legal entities are allowed to get, what type of rights that fictitious legal entities hold (or don't), ownership of "ideas", and so on. These are highly arbitrary agreements that we can easily change when they are causing harm to society as a whole.

I don't believe it's the government's role to protect people from their own stupid decisions. In this case, I don't think copyright law is at fault for a dependant consumer mentality.
I see it as pathetic, that 'Toy Commercial CGI explosion' is seen as some kind of valuable social element on the level of historic myths.
I believe that THIS is the problem. It's not just some pulp trash - it's worthy of sacred elevation!
And yes, I will say historical writings with themes, morality elements, and relations to religious and historical elements are a higher form of art then 'The adventures of captain wonderbread'.

Huzzah. I yearn for a world where instead of The Avengers we have The Iliad. Not because I want to get excited for the product so I can consume it, but so that the Western canon reaches as mass an audience as possible. How many young people can identify Captain America and not Hector? The Hulk but not Ajax? Instead we have crass garbage, made for a global audience, devoid of meaning beyond "don't be mean" or "it's good when friends work together to solve a problem." Children movies used to be a means to transmit culture; those days are over.

Quote from: horsesoldier on May 27, 2021, 10:45:19 AM

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 27, 2021, 10:00:41 AM

Quote from: Zelen on May 27, 2021, 03:58:59 AMSure, but the point is human nature is shaped by our social agreements. Social agreements about how big & powerful fictitious legal entities are allowed to get, what type of rights that fictitious legal entities hold (or don't), ownership of "ideas", and so on. These are highly arbitrary agreements that we can easily change when they are causing harm to society as a whole.

I don't believe it's the government's role to protect people from their own stupid decisions. In this case, I don't think copyright law is at fault for a dependant consumer mentality.
I see it as pathetic, that 'Toy Commercial CGI explosion' is seen as some kind of valuable social element on the level of historic myths.
I believe that THIS is the problem. It's not just some pulp trash - it's worthy of sacred elevation!
And yes, I will say historical writings with themes, morality elements, and relations to religious and historical elements are a higher form of art then 'The adventures of captain wonderbread'.

Huzzah. I yearn for a world where instead of The Avengers we have The Iliad. Not because I want to get excited for the product so I can consume it, but so that the Western canon reaches as mass an audience as possible. How many young people can identify Captain America and not Hector? The Hulk but not Ajax? Instead we have crass garbage, made for a global audience, devoid of meaning beyond "don't be mean" or "it's good when friends work together to solve a problem." Children movies used to be a means to transmit culture; those days are over.

I mean, I still teach those stories to kids in high school. Most schools do. The problem I think isn't the canon isn't a part of the pop culture, you can see elements of it in most stories. The problem to me is that there are a lot of people that thinking they are doing good by destroying the canon we impart mostly in school. You're right that some previous media did impart that culture, however.

Quote from: Torque2100 on May 26, 2021, 08:53:37 AM
Nail, Head, ETC.

I'm really starting to think that the "Culture War" doesn't actually exist.  It's shadow puppets to keep the masses entertained while the Corpos just carry on doing whatever they were already going to do anyway.  "Consoom Product to Defeat our Cultural Enemies" is just a marketing gimmick like everything else.

Relating these two thoughts together, I think the culture war does exist, but I think things are exacerbated by a few things. Namely, marketing. I do think Torque is partially right, but I think that the culture war is actually amplified through marketing, the suits thinking they bake this concept in it gives the masses the sense that they are on their side, giving them what they way, etc. One key thing however is Algorithms. Targeted advertising has changed the internet even in the past ten years in ways that are hard to come to grips with. Quite frankly, most marketers have profiles on just about everyone. I think that this has created an environment where you are constantly bombarded by things that the system thinks you already like.

Much has already been said that this creates echo chambers, and obviously leads people to extreme positions. But I think something can be said for this affecting how we relate to one another culturally, including passing culture on. We make jokes about consume product and what not, it is true, but even just passing on cultural myths, I think this system has affected it in more ways than one. Culture has felt paralyzed to me for a long time for a variety of factors, but I think this is a big part of the reason why. I think D&D has been affected by it as well, making and marketing in a style where there is no hard, set morals, everyone can be good, etc. Tearing concepts down and trying to appeal to the most people, including a very loud contingent of wokesters for lack of a better word, to maximize profit.