Yeah yeah you all mostly blame "SJWs" and "Feminazis" for ruining D&D now, but there might be more than that to it.

Long ago gaming like RPGs was a tiny business,  the fucking souless suits and corporate bloodsuckers never cared about it.

But it hung in there, growing slowly, but surely, becoming more and more noticed over the decades, and eventually got to where 'businessmen" (SPIT!) became interested.

The same souless, heartless, cold, calculating grey men in their dark suits and tied slowly got into gaming, and of course D&D was the big boy then. The came i with offers of money and marketing, and slowly took over, because they weren't gamers, tyhey were capitalists, and as Bill Maher said, capitalism eats everything.

The camel got its nose under the edge of the tent, and pretty soon the whole ugly, stinking, mean, stubborn beast was in control.

Games weren't by gamers for gamers anymore, they were by businessmen for profit. Game writers were kept around, with a corporate shoe on their necks kept their by businessmen who regarded gamers as stupid geeky losers to bilk money from.

Games became a small bit of big business, with market research and marketing making the big decisions, the game writers were forced to follow the orders of people who weren't gamers but had worked for television, movies, etc. People who didn't understand a game audience is a whole different animal than tv audiences.

And of course, games had to not offend anyone, yes, the marketing departments recognized the so called SJW crowd and pandered to them. Gotta appeal to the zeitsmode, which is exactly what the pioneers of gaming in the late 70's-80's didn't do.

Hell, once upon a time even games workshop was about gamers having fun, not strip mining gamer's wallets. But after a while capitalism's insatiable tentacles wormed their way in and out were the fun, in came the professionals, and the fun was just squeezed out of it for maximum profit. People in suits and ties replaced gamers in tshirts and jeans. And now they're running big gaming. Soulless suits who have zero idea what they're doing but hold up puppets who claim to be gamers and relate to the game public.

Yeah, the outrage brigade and the butthurt battalion did some harm to TTRPGs, (and as a leftist i'm sick of those types too)  but In think that 'businessmen" with their "market analysis" and mindless need to make more profit every year helped ruin big gaming companies. A lot of old school gamers were happy if their work paid the bills, they didn;t need to make more and more profit for it's onw sake like the modern 'murcan business model demands.

There are a lot of  fingers to point at a lot of things, but let's not just blame it all on the fringe left, hell if you righties had had you way D&D would have been banned for being satanic a long time ago.

Fuck, one thing i love in Ep is the fact it sure ain't being made by (UGH!) fucking businessmen. (SPIT!)

Nail, Head, ETC.

I'm really starting to think that the "Culture War" doesn't actually exist.  It's shadow puppets to keep the masses entertained while the Corpos just carry on doing whatever they were already going to do anyway.  "Consoom Product to Defeat our Cultural Enemies" is just a marketing gimmick like everything else.

RetroBlasting has an excellent video about this

The best advice I can give is: stop being a fan. Of anything. Stop buying everything just because of the name.  Become loyal to Creators, not Brands.  Follow Creators and buy their stuff if you like their work.  Then when the creators leave, follow them.  Learn to recognize when Brand and Franchises are locked in the Corporate IP Death Cycle, mourn and move on.

In a gaming context, I would highly recommend embracing the OSR.  Check out games like Swords and Wizardry, Castles and Crusades, Dragon Warriors and others.

And if a creator is an asshole on Twitter, stop buying his shit.

Quote from: The Thing on May 26, 2021, 07:20:01 AM
*snip*

What you're saying is true, but far from specific to 5E. The idea of "let's make the game bland and inoffensive to please Corporate" was already a thing in 1982, when TSR's Code of Ethics was drafted. So if you think that 5E is "ruined", and that it's ruined in a way previous editions weren't, then you'll have to search for the cause elsewhere.

Quote from: Premier on May 26, 2021, 09:15:13 AM

Quote from: The Thing on May 26, 2021, 07:20:01 AM
*snip*

What you're saying is true, but far from specific to 5E. The idea of "let's make the game bland and inoffensive to please Corporate" was already a thing in 1982, when TSR's Code of Ethics was drafted. So if you think that 5E is "ruined", and that it's ruined in a way previous editions weren't, then you'll have to search for the cause elsewhere.

DnD has always had an identity crisis.  Corporate wants DnD to be as bland and inoffensive as possible but the source material DnD Draws from is very much not bland, inoffensive or PC.

 I think the same can be argued for most entertainment media.  That art by committee is a serious hit on the quality of the art IMO.

I think folks are seeing a contradiction that isn't relevant any more. In the past few years, corporate America has gone from 'trying to appeal to everyone' to 'openly siding with one half of the culture wars' in many cases. The changes are being driven by both corporate and creative sides.

Official D&D belongs to the Woke. You're not going to change that unless you get an upheaval like that of 25 years ago.

Quote from: The Thing on May 26, 2021, 07:20:01 AM
Yeah yeah you all mostly blame "SJWs" and "Feminazis" for ruining D&D now, but there might be more than that to it.

Long ago gaming like RPGs was a tiny business,  the fucking souless suits and corporate bloodsuckers never cared about it.

I think everyone already recognizes that the business interests in the hobby have a damaging effect on the soul of the games we play. This isn't unique to RPGs, it also reflects in TV, movies, music, books, etc.

However that doesn't explain why so many businesses as a whole have charted a course that is deeply offensive to the vast majority of people. With D&D in particular -- Constantly spotlighting issues of "racism" in fictional worlds based on fictional races does nothing to actually make the product more appealing, if anything this just creates a negative association on the product overall.

As easy as it is to blame corporate suits for this, businessmen don't materialize from the ether as psychic vampires intent on sucking out profits. TTRPGs are a niche hobby with a well-understood core demographic, and the people who organically want to enter the industry and make a "business" out of it almost all arise from that core demographic. What we see has to be understood in terms of ideologically motivated individuals deliberately entering into a hobby in order to colonize it and make it less inclusive for everyone and more useful as a propaganda organ for their nontheistic religion.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on May 26, 2021, 10:41:57 AM
I think folks are seeing a contradiction that isn't relevant any more. In the past few years, corporate America has gone from 'trying to appeal to everyone' to 'openly siding with one half of the culture wars' in many cases. The changes are being driven by both corporate and creative sides.

Official D&D belongs to the Woke. You're not going to change that unless you get an upheaval like that of 25 years ago.

It's not going to change until the other half actually start speaking with their wallets. How many people on this site bemoan D&D for whatever reason and then not a few pages later admit they bought the New Shiny anyway? Of course RPGs are a bit different to a lot of products in that you can just outright ignore the parts you don't like, but even so, all it's really doing is reaffirming to Wizards and everybody else that what they're doing is working.

Plus most of the 'normies' buying into 5E don't really care. Sure, they don't like being called Privileged Racist W*ite Scum, but they're so Grillpilled and apathetic they just roll with the punches because everyone else is playing D&D so whatever.

Quote from: Snark Knight on May 26, 2021, 10:59:33 AM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on May 26, 2021, 10:41:57 AM
I think folks are seeing a contradiction that isn't relevant any more. In the past few years, corporate America has gone from 'trying to appeal to everyone' to 'openly siding with one half of the culture wars' in many cases. The changes are being driven by both corporate and creative sides.

Official D&D belongs to the Woke. You're not going to change that unless you get an upheaval like that of 25 years ago.

It's not going to change until the other half actually start speaking with their wallets. How many people on this site bemoan D&D for whatever reason and then not a few pages later admit they bought the New Shiny anyway? Of course RPGs are a bit different to a lot of products in that you can just outright ignore the parts you don't like, but even so, all it's really doing is reaffirming to Wizards and everybody else that what they're doing is working.

Plus most of the 'normies' buying into 5E don't really care. Sure, they don't like being called Privileged Racist W*ite Scum, but they're so Grillpilled and apathetic they just roll with the punches because everyone else is playing D&D so whatever.

What're you talking about?

I pirate all my 5E stuff.

Quote from: Torque2100 on May 26, 2021, 08:53:37 AM
Nail, Head, ETC.

I'm really starting to think that the "Culture War" doesn't actually exist.  It's shadow puppets to keep the masses entertained while the Corpos just carry on doing whatever they were already going to do anyway.  "Consoom Product to Defeat our Cultural Enemies" is just a marketing gimmick like everything else.

RetroBlasting has an excellent video about this

The best advice I can give is: stop being a fan. Of anything. Stop buying everything just because of the name.  Become loyal to Creators, not Brands.  Follow Creators and buy their stuff if you like their work.  Then when the creators leave, follow them.  Learn to recognize when Brand and Franchises are locked in the Corporate IP Death Cycle, mourn and move on.

In a gaming context, I would highly recommend embracing the OSR.  Check out games like Swords and Wizardry, Castles and Crusades, Dragon Warriors and others.

And if a creator is an asshole on Twitter, stop buying his shit.

Like FoxBoy from Zweihander, which reminds me: I hope no one was dumb enough to take him up on his offer to mail their books to him for a refund. That's grounds for an 'accidental' doxxing right there.

Quote from: Snark Knight on May 26, 2021, 10:59:33 AM
It's not going to change until the other half actually start speaking with their wallets. How many people on this site bemoan D&D for whatever reason and then not a few pages later admit they bought the New Shiny anyway? Of course RPGs are a bit different to a lot of products in that you can just outright ignore the parts you don't like, but even so, all it's really doing is reaffirming to Wizards and everybody else that what they're doing is working.

Plus most of the 'normies' buying into 5E don't really care. Sure, they don't like being called Privileged Racist W*ite Scum, but they're so Grillpilled and apathetic they just roll with the punches because everyone else is playing D&D so whatever.

Yep, and that reinforces the mindset that WOTC operates under. Even if the masses don't notice it or ignore it, they're still shelling out cash for the books and keep getting insulted by the creative staff.

DnD has been controlled by steely eyed businessmen from nearly the beginning. If it hadn't been, TSR would have went out of business and DnD might be some footnote. We'd be on here arguing about Runequest or something else. So you can't just blame the guys in suits. Hell TSR was so ahead of its time they had a gal in a suit ruin the company!

What we're seeing now is our cultural revolution make its way into DnD. This cultural revolution is indeed eating everything. Those horrid men in suits are there to help it along. In the cultural revolution, some professional Asian complaining about Oriental Adventures actually helps the brand of DnD, as it demonizes the bad old white men who wrote it and gives the company an opportunity to genuflect.

It isn't a mistake that Mike Mearls is MIA and we have Perkins/Crawford running the show. It also isn't a mistake that we have record numbers of non-gamers buying books and record numbers of books being sold. When appealing to gamers, you get books like the DMG II. When appealing to non-gamers, you get Tasha and multiple Ravenloft products.

I haven't bought a WOTC book in years and don't foresee ever doing so again unless they're somehow able to purge the hatemongers from their ranks.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 26, 2021, 11:30:22 AM

Quote from: Snark Knight on May 26, 2021, 10:59:33 AM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on May 26, 2021, 10:41:57 AM
I think folks are seeing a contradiction that isn't relevant any more. In the past few years, corporate America has gone from 'trying to appeal to everyone' to 'openly siding with one half of the culture wars' in many cases. The changes are being driven by both corporate and creative sides.

Official D&D belongs to the Woke. You're not going to change that unless you get an upheaval like that of 25 years ago.

It's not going to change until the other half actually start speaking with their wallets. How many people on this site bemoan D&D for whatever reason and then not a few pages later admit they bought the New Shiny anyway? Of course RPGs are a bit different to a lot of products in that you can just outright ignore the parts you don't like, but even so, all it's really doing is reaffirming to Wizards and everybody else that what they're doing is working.

Plus most of the 'normies' buying into 5E don't really care. Sure, they don't like being called Privileged Racist W*ite Scum, but they're so Grillpilled and apathetic they just roll with the punches because everyone else is playing D&D so whatever.

What're you talking about?

I pirate all my 5E stuff.

same but that's not a moral stance for me, I just pirate everything

Quote from: horsesoldier on May 26, 2021, 12:04:49 PM
DnD has been controlled by steely eyed businessmen from nearly the beginning. If it hadn't been, TSR would have went out of business and DnD might be some footnote. We'd be on here arguing about Runequest or something else. So you can't just blame the guys in suits. Hell TSR was so ahead of its time they had a gal in a suit ruin the company!

What we're seeing now is our cultural revolution make its way into DnD. This cultural revolution is indeed eating everything. Those horrid men in suits are there to help it along. In the cultural revolution, some professional Asian complaining about Oriental Adventures actually helps the brand of DnD, as it demonizes the bad old white men who wrote it and gives the company an opportunity to genuflect.

It isn't a mistake that Mike Mearls is MIA and we have Perkins/Crawford running the show. It also isn't a mistake that we have record numbers of non-gamers buying books and record numbers of books being sold. When appealing to gamers, you get books like the DMG II. When appealing to non-gamers, you get Tasha and multiple Ravenloft products.

It is a cultural revolution; which seeks to destroy all societal norms, redefine every word in our language, and piss all over anything good about the past.

Quote from: The Thing on May 26, 2021, 07:20:01 AM
Yeah yeah you all mostly blame "SJWs" and "Feminazis" for ruining D&D now, but there might be more than that to it.

Long ago gaming like RPGs was a tiny business,  the fucking souless suits and corporate bloodsuckers never cared about it.

But it hung in there, growing slowly, but surely, becoming more and more noticed over the decades, and eventually got to where 'businessmen" (SPIT!) became interested.

The same souless, heartless, cold, calculating grey men in their dark suits and tied slowly got into gaming, and of course D&D was the big boy then. The came i with offers of money and marketing, and slowly took over, because they weren't gamers, tyhey were capitalists, and as Bill Maher said, capitalism eats everything.

The camel got its nose under the edge of the tent, and pretty soon the whole ugly, stinking, mean, stubborn beast was in control.

Games weren't by gamers for gamers anymore, they were by businessmen for profit. Game writers were kept around, with a corporate shoe on their necks kept their by businessmen who regarded gamers as stupid geeky losers to bilk money from.

Games became a small bit of big business, with market research and marketing making the big decisions, the game writers were forced to follow the orders of people who weren't gamers but had worked for television, movies, etc. People who didn't understand a game audience is a whole different animal than tv audiences.

And of course, games had to not offend anyone, yes, the marketing departments recognized the so called SJW crowd and pandered to them. Gotta appeal to the zeitsmode, which is exactly what the pioneers of gaming in the late 70's-80's didn't do.

Hell, once upon a time even games workshop was about gamers having fun, not strip mining gamer's wallets. But after a while capitalism's insatiable tentacles wormed their way in and out were the fun, in came the professionals, and the fun was just squeezed out of it for maximum profit. People in suits and ties replaced gamers in tshirts and jeans. And now they're running big gaming. Soulless suits who have zero idea what they're doing but hold up puppets who claim to be gamers and relate to the game public.

Yeah, the outrage brigade and the butthurt battalion did some harm to TTRPGs, (and as a leftist i'm sick of those types too)  but In think that 'businessmen" with their "market analysis" and mindless need to make more profit every year helped ruin big gaming companies. A lot of old school gamers were happy if their work paid the bills, they didn;t need to make more and more profit for it's onw sake like the modern 'murcan business model demands.

There are a lot of  fingers to point at a lot of things, but let's not just blame it all on the fringe left, hell if you righties had had you way D&D would have been banned for being satanic a long time ago.

Fuck, one thing i love in Ep is the fact it sure ain't being made by (UGH!) fucking businessmen. (SPIT!)

What a childish view of the situation.

I hate it when Big Business wrecks something for a profit margin, but hey, remember that Gary willingly corporatized TSR. Without handling the business side of selling RPGs, you'd probably never have seen Dungeons and Dragons in your local store, or the Sears christmas catalog.
And now the New Hotness is being woke, and middle managers love to pad their metrics with nonsense goals like diversity meetings and racial hiring quotas, instead of actually making fun games.
The Religious Right are a shadow of a memory from decades ago. The Wokesters are on the front porch, right now, demanding D&D be changed to fit their fucked up view of the world.