Yeah yeah you all mostly blame "SJWs" and "Feminazis" for ruining D&D now, but there might be more than that to it.
Long ago gaming like RPGs was a tiny business, the fucking souless suits and corporate bloodsuckers never cared about it.
But it hung in there, growing slowly, but surely, becoming more and more noticed over the decades, and eventually got to where 'businessmen" (SPIT!) became interested.
The same souless, heartless, cold, calculating grey men in their dark suits and tied slowly got into gaming, and of course D&D was the big boy then. The came i with offers of money and marketing, and slowly took over, because they weren't gamers, tyhey were capitalists, and as Bill Maher said, capitalism eats everything.
The camel got its nose under the edge of the tent, and pretty soon the whole ugly, stinking, mean, stubborn beast was in control.
Games weren't by gamers for gamers anymore, they were by businessmen for profit. Game writers were kept around, with a corporate shoe on their necks kept their by businessmen who regarded gamers as stupid geeky losers to bilk money from.
Games became a small bit of big business, with market research and marketing making the big decisions, the game writers were forced to follow the orders of people who weren't gamers but had worked for television, movies, etc. People who didn't understand a game audience is a whole different animal than tv audiences.
And of course, games had to not offend anyone, yes, the marketing departments recognized the so called SJW crowd and pandered to them. Gotta appeal to the zeitsmode, which is exactly what the pioneers of gaming in the late 70's-80's didn't do.
Hell, once upon a time even games workshop was about gamers having fun, not strip mining gamer's wallets. But after a while capitalism's insatiable tentacles wormed their way in and out were the fun, in came the professionals, and the fun was just squeezed out of it for maximum profit. People in suits and ties replaced gamers in tshirts and jeans. And now they're running big gaming. Soulless suits who have zero idea what they're doing but hold up puppets who claim to be gamers and relate to the game public.
Yeah, the outrage brigade and the butthurt battalion did some harm to TTRPGs, (and as a leftist i'm sick of those types too) but In think that 'businessmen" with their "market analysis" and mindless need to make more profit every year helped ruin big gaming companies. A lot of old school gamers were happy if their work paid the bills, they didn;t need to make more and more profit for it's onw sake like the modern 'murcan business model demands.
There are a lot of fingers to point at a lot of things, but let's not just blame it all on the fringe left, hell if you righties had had you way D&D would have been banned for being satanic a long time ago.
Fuck, one thing i love in Ep is the fact it sure ain't being made by (UGH!) fucking businessmen. (SPIT!)
Nail, Head, ETC.
I'm really starting to think that the "Culture War" doesn't actually exist. It's shadow puppets to keep the masses entertained while the Corpos just carry on doing whatever they were already going to do anyway. "Consoom Product to Defeat our Cultural Enemies" is just a marketing gimmick like everything else.
RetroBlasting has an excellent video about this (https://youtu.be/FqhC5fMyU_I)
The best advice I can give is: stop being a fan. Of anything. Stop buying everything just because of the name. Become loyal to Creators, not Brands. Follow Creators and buy their stuff if you like their work. Then when the creators leave, follow them. Learn to recognize when Brand and Franchises are locked in the Corporate IP Death Cycle, mourn and move on.
In a gaming context, I would highly recommend embracing the OSR. Check out games like Swords and Wizardry, Castles and Crusades, Dragon Warriors and others.
And if a creator is an asshole on Twitter, stop buying his shit.
Quote from: The Thing on May 26, 2021, 07:20:01 AM
*snip*
What you're saying is true, but far from specific to 5E. The idea of "let's make the game bland and inoffensive to please Corporate" was already a thing in
1982, when TSR's Code of Ethics was drafted. So if you think that 5E is "ruined", and that it's ruined in a way previous editions weren't, then you'll have to search for the cause elsewhere.
Quote from: Premier on May 26, 2021, 09:15:13 AM
Quote from: The Thing on May 26, 2021, 07:20:01 AM
*snip*
What you're saying is true, but far from specific to 5E. The idea of "let's make the game bland and inoffensive to please Corporate" was already a thing in 1982, when TSR's Code of Ethics was drafted. So if you think that 5E is "ruined", and that it's ruined in a way previous editions weren't, then you'll have to search for the cause elsewhere.
DnD has always had an identity crisis. Corporate wants DnD to be as bland and inoffensive as possible but the source material DnD Draws from is very much
not bland, inoffensive or PC.
I think the same can be argued for most entertainment media. That art by committee is a serious hit on the quality of the art IMO.
I think folks are seeing a contradiction that isn't relevant any more. In the past few years, corporate America has gone from 'trying to appeal to everyone' to 'openly siding with one half of the culture wars' in many cases. The changes are being driven by both corporate and creative sides.
Official D&D belongs to the Woke. You're not going to change that unless you get an upheaval like that of 25 years ago.
Quote from: The Thing on May 26, 2021, 07:20:01 AM
Yeah yeah you all mostly blame "SJWs" and "Feminazis" for ruining D&D now, but there might be more than that to it.
Long ago gaming like RPGs was a tiny business, the fucking souless suits and corporate bloodsuckers never cared about it.
I think everyone already recognizes that the business interests in the hobby have a damaging effect on the
soul of the games we play. This isn't unique to RPGs, it also reflects in TV, movies, music, books, etc.
However that doesn't explain why so many businesses
as a whole have charted a course that is deeply offensive to the vast majority of people. With D&D in particular -- Constantly spotlighting issues of "racism" in fictional worlds based on fictional races does nothing to actually make the product more appealing, if anything this just creates a negative association on the product overall.
As easy as it is to blame corporate suits for this, businessmen don't materialize from the ether as psychic vampires intent on sucking out profits. TTRPGs are a niche hobby with a well-understood core demographic, and the people who organically want to enter the industry and make a "business" out of it almost all arise from that core demographic. What we see has to be understood in terms of ideologically motivated individuals deliberately entering into a hobby in order to colonize it and make it less inclusive for everyone and more useful as a propaganda organ for their nontheistic religion.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on May 26, 2021, 10:41:57 AM
I think folks are seeing a contradiction that isn't relevant any more. In the past few years, corporate America has gone from 'trying to appeal to everyone' to 'openly siding with one half of the culture wars' in many cases. The changes are being driven by both corporate and creative sides.
Official D&D belongs to the Woke. You're not going to change that unless you get an upheaval like that of 25 years ago.
It's not going to change until the other half actually start speaking with their wallets. How many people on this site bemoan D&D for whatever reason and then not a few pages later admit they bought the New Shiny anyway? Of course RPGs are a bit different to a lot of products in that you can just outright ignore the parts you don't like, but even so, all it's really doing is reaffirming to Wizards and everybody else that what they're doing is working.
Plus most of the 'normies' buying into 5E don't really care. Sure, they don't like being called Privileged Racist W*ite Scum, but they're so Grillpilled and apathetic they just roll with the punches because everyone else is playing D&D so whatever.
Quote from: Snark Knight on May 26, 2021, 10:59:33 AM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on May 26, 2021, 10:41:57 AM
I think folks are seeing a contradiction that isn't relevant any more. In the past few years, corporate America has gone from 'trying to appeal to everyone' to 'openly siding with one half of the culture wars' in many cases. The changes are being driven by both corporate and creative sides.
Official D&D belongs to the Woke. You're not going to change that unless you get an upheaval like that of 25 years ago.
It's not going to change until the other half actually start speaking with their wallets. How many people on this site bemoan D&D for whatever reason and then not a few pages later admit they bought the New Shiny anyway? Of course RPGs are a bit different to a lot of products in that you can just outright ignore the parts you don't like, but even so, all it's really doing is reaffirming to Wizards and everybody else that what they're doing is working.
Plus most of the 'normies' buying into 5E don't really care. Sure, they don't like being called Privileged Racist W*ite Scum, but they're so Grillpilled and apathetic they just roll with the punches because everyone else is playing D&D so whatever.
What're you talking about?
I pirate all my 5E stuff. :)
Quote from: Torque2100 on May 26, 2021, 08:53:37 AM
Nail, Head, ETC.
I'm really starting to think that the "Culture War" doesn't actually exist. It's shadow puppets to keep the masses entertained while the Corpos just carry on doing whatever they were already going to do anyway. "Consoom Product to Defeat our Cultural Enemies" is just a marketing gimmick like everything else.
RetroBlasting has an excellent video about this (https://youtu.be/FqhC5fMyU_I)
The best advice I can give is: stop being a fan. Of anything. Stop buying everything just because of the name. Become loyal to Creators, not Brands. Follow Creators and buy their stuff if you like their work. Then when the creators leave, follow them. Learn to recognize when Brand and Franchises are locked in the Corporate IP Death Cycle, mourn and move on.
In a gaming context, I would highly recommend embracing the OSR. Check out games like Swords and Wizardry, Castles and Crusades, Dragon Warriors and others.
And if a creator is an asshole on Twitter, stop buying his shit.
Like FoxBoy from Zweihander, which reminds me: I hope no one was dumb enough to take him up on his offer to mail their books to him for a refund. That's grounds for an 'accidental' doxxing right there.
Quote from: Snark Knight on May 26, 2021, 10:59:33 AM
It's not going to change until the other half actually start speaking with their wallets. How many people on this site bemoan D&D for whatever reason and then not a few pages later admit they bought the New Shiny anyway? Of course RPGs are a bit different to a lot of products in that you can just outright ignore the parts you don't like, but even so, all it's really doing is reaffirming to Wizards and everybody else that what they're doing is working.
Plus most of the 'normies' buying into 5E don't really care. Sure, they don't like being called Privileged Racist W*ite Scum, but they're so Grillpilled and apathetic they just roll with the punches because everyone else is playing D&D so whatever.
Yep, and that reinforces the mindset that WOTC operates under. Even if the masses don't notice it or ignore it, they're still shelling out cash for the books and keep getting insulted by the creative staff.
DnD has been controlled by steely eyed businessmen from nearly the beginning. If it hadn't been, TSR would have went out of business and DnD might be some footnote. We'd be on here arguing about Runequest or something else. So you can't just blame the guys in suits. Hell TSR was so ahead of its time they had a gal in a suit ruin the company!
What we're seeing now is our cultural revolution make its way into DnD. This cultural revolution is indeed eating everything. Those horrid men in suits are there to help it along. In the cultural revolution, some professional Asian complaining about Oriental Adventures actually helps the brand of DnD, as it demonizes the bad old white men who wrote it and gives the company an opportunity to genuflect.
It isn't a mistake that Mike Mearls is MIA and we have Perkins/Crawford running the show. It also isn't a mistake that we have record numbers of non-gamers buying books and record numbers of books being sold. When appealing to gamers, you get books like the DMG II. When appealing to non-gamers, you get Tasha and multiple Ravenloft products.
I haven't bought a WOTC book in years and don't foresee ever doing so again unless they're somehow able to purge the hatemongers from their ranks.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 26, 2021, 11:30:22 AM
Quote from: Snark Knight on May 26, 2021, 10:59:33 AM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on May 26, 2021, 10:41:57 AM
I think folks are seeing a contradiction that isn't relevant any more. In the past few years, corporate America has gone from 'trying to appeal to everyone' to 'openly siding with one half of the culture wars' in many cases. The changes are being driven by both corporate and creative sides.
Official D&D belongs to the Woke. You're not going to change that unless you get an upheaval like that of 25 years ago.
It's not going to change until the other half actually start speaking with their wallets. How many people on this site bemoan D&D for whatever reason and then not a few pages later admit they bought the New Shiny anyway? Of course RPGs are a bit different to a lot of products in that you can just outright ignore the parts you don't like, but even so, all it's really doing is reaffirming to Wizards and everybody else that what they're doing is working.
Plus most of the 'normies' buying into 5E don't really care. Sure, they don't like being called Privileged Racist W*ite Scum, but they're so Grillpilled and apathetic they just roll with the punches because everyone else is playing D&D so whatever.
What're you talking about?
I pirate all my 5E stuff. :)
same but that's not a moral stance for me, I just pirate everything
Quote from: horsesoldier on May 26, 2021, 12:04:49 PM
DnD has been controlled by steely eyed businessmen from nearly the beginning. If it hadn't been, TSR would have went out of business and DnD might be some footnote. We'd be on here arguing about Runequest or something else. So you can't just blame the guys in suits. Hell TSR was so ahead of its time they had a gal in a suit ruin the company!
What we're seeing now is our cultural revolution make its way into DnD. This cultural revolution is indeed eating everything. Those horrid men in suits are there to help it along. In the cultural revolution, some professional Asian complaining about Oriental Adventures actually helps the brand of DnD, as it demonizes the bad old white men who wrote it and gives the company an opportunity to genuflect.
It isn't a mistake that Mike Mearls is MIA and we have Perkins/Crawford running the show. It also isn't a mistake that we have record numbers of non-gamers buying books and record numbers of books being sold. When appealing to gamers, you get books like the DMG II. When appealing to non-gamers, you get Tasha and multiple Ravenloft products.
It is a cultural revolution; which seeks to destroy all societal norms, redefine every word in our language, and piss all over anything good about the past.
Quote from: The Thing on May 26, 2021, 07:20:01 AM
Yeah yeah you all mostly blame "SJWs" and "Feminazis" for ruining D&D now, but there might be more than that to it.
Long ago gaming like RPGs was a tiny business, the fucking souless suits and corporate bloodsuckers never cared about it.
But it hung in there, growing slowly, but surely, becoming more and more noticed over the decades, and eventually got to where 'businessmen" (SPIT!) became interested.
The same souless, heartless, cold, calculating grey men in their dark suits and tied slowly got into gaming, and of course D&D was the big boy then. The came i with offers of money and marketing, and slowly took over, because they weren't gamers, tyhey were capitalists, and as Bill Maher said, capitalism eats everything.
The camel got its nose under the edge of the tent, and pretty soon the whole ugly, stinking, mean, stubborn beast was in control.
Games weren't by gamers for gamers anymore, they were by businessmen for profit. Game writers were kept around, with a corporate shoe on their necks kept their by businessmen who regarded gamers as stupid geeky losers to bilk money from.
Games became a small bit of big business, with market research and marketing making the big decisions, the game writers were forced to follow the orders of people who weren't gamers but had worked for television, movies, etc. People who didn't understand a game audience is a whole different animal than tv audiences.
And of course, games had to not offend anyone, yes, the marketing departments recognized the so called SJW crowd and pandered to them. Gotta appeal to the zeitsmode, which is exactly what the pioneers of gaming in the late 70's-80's didn't do.
Hell, once upon a time even games workshop was about gamers having fun, not strip mining gamer's wallets. But after a while capitalism's insatiable tentacles wormed their way in and out were the fun, in came the professionals, and the fun was just squeezed out of it for maximum profit. People in suits and ties replaced gamers in tshirts and jeans. And now they're running big gaming. Soulless suits who have zero idea what they're doing but hold up puppets who claim to be gamers and relate to the game public.
Yeah, the outrage brigade and the butthurt battalion did some harm to TTRPGs, (and as a leftist i'm sick of those types too) but In think that 'businessmen" with their "market analysis" and mindless need to make more profit every year helped ruin big gaming companies. A lot of old school gamers were happy if their work paid the bills, they didn;t need to make more and more profit for it's onw sake like the modern 'murcan business model demands.
There are a lot of fingers to point at a lot of things, but let's not just blame it all on the fringe left, hell if you righties had had you way D&D would have been banned for being satanic a long time ago.
Fuck, one thing i love in Ep is the fact it sure ain't being made by (UGH!) fucking businessmen. (SPIT!)
What a childish view of the situation.
I hate it when Big Business wrecks something for a profit margin, but hey, remember that Gary willingly corporatized TSR. Without handling the business side of selling RPGs, you'd probably never have seen Dungeons and Dragons in your local store, or the Sears christmas catalog.
And now the New Hotness is being woke, and middle managers love to pad their metrics with nonsense goals like diversity meetings and racial hiring quotas, instead of actually making fun games.
The Religious Right are a shadow of a memory from decades ago. The Wokesters are on the front porch, right now, demanding D&D be changed to fit their fucked up view of the world.
Quote from: horsesoldier on May 26, 2021, 12:04:49 PM
DnD has been controlled by steely eyed businessmen from nearly the beginning. If it hadn't been, TSR would have went out of business and DnD might be some footnote. We'd be on here arguing about Runequest or something else. So you can't just blame the guys in suits. Hell TSR was so ahead of its time they had a gal in a suit ruin the company!
What we're seeing now is our cultural revolution make its way into DnD. This cultural revolution is indeed eating everything. Those horrid men in suits are there to help it along. In the cultural revolution, some professional Asian complaining about Oriental Adventures actually helps the brand of DnD, as it demonizes the bad old white men who wrote it and gives the company an opportunity to genuflect.
It isn't a mistake that Mike Mearls is MIA and we have Perkins/Crawford running the show. It also isn't a mistake that we have record numbers of non-gamers buying books and record numbers of books being sold. When appealing to gamers, you get books like the DMG II. When appealing to non-gamers, you get Tasha and multiple Ravenloft products.
I agree with horsesoldier that D&D has been a big business for a while - certainly by 1980 when they had things like licensing deals for the television cartoon, and a marketing department and lawyers and so forth. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. As a corporation, TSR and WotC have been money-grubbing, but that motivates them to make products that the maximum number of people will pay money to buy. That doesn't mean the products are worthwhile, but they could be.
While I haven't liked a number of the 5e books, I think overall 5e is my favorite edition. It's been easy to set up, quick to pick up by players, with plenty of variety and flavorful without having too involved a rules. BX was simpler, but had a lot less options and support.
The culture wars are happening all through society, and the fact of life is that there are *both* conservative D&D players and liberal D&D players. WotC wants to sell to both of them, so it's going to have material that is mixed in politics.
There are some liberals gamers who are exclusive - they're the sort who only buy woke indie games. There are also some conservative gamers who are exclusive, and they're the sort who only buy traditionalist OSR games. And that's their choice and perfectly fine. They're voting with their feet. But there are also a bunch of gamers who don't care if there are bits of material that don't match their politics, and will just ignore or change the parts they don't like.
Quote from: horsesoldier on May 26, 2021, 12:04:49 PMWhen appealing to gamers, you get books like the DMG II. When appealing to non-gamers, you get Tasha and multiple Ravenloft products.
Nah. You are seeing a strategy to sell books to more of the players. The DMG and MM sells a copy or two per gaming group. The settings, Volo's, Xanathar's and Tasha's books add "optional" player content as well as DM materials. That sells copies to a lot more of the group members, even though most of the content isn't relevant.
Quote from: Palleon on May 26, 2021, 01:51:39 PM
Quote from: horsesoldier on May 26, 2021, 12:04:49 PMWhen appealing to gamers, you get books like the DMG II. When appealing to non-gamers, you get Tasha and multiple Ravenloft products.
Nah. You are seeing a strategy to sell books to more of the players. The DMG and MM sells a copy or two per gaming group. The settings, Volo's, Xanathar's and Tasha's books add "optional" player content as well as DM materials. That sells copies to a lot more of the group members, even though most of the content isn't relevant.
Is there any tally kept of how many don't buy any hard copy products but instead use the online sources? Are players more likely to buy or pass on such vs. hard copy?
If D&D really is switching to so many younger players, then I have to imagine that the time of hard copy products is running down.
Quote from: Palleon on May 26, 2021, 01:51:39 PM
Quote from: horsesoldier on May 26, 2021, 12:04:49 PMWhen appealing to gamers, you get books like the DMG II. When appealing to non-gamers, you get Tasha and multiple Ravenloft products.
Nah. You are seeing a strategy to sell books to more of the players. The DMG and MM sells a copy or two per gaming group. The settings, Volo's, Xanathar's and Tasha's books add "optional" player content as well as DM materials. That sells copies to a lot more of the group members, even though most of the content isn't relevant.
Non-gamers would open the 3.5 DMG II and have no idea what they're looking at. Non-gamers can look at the Tasha and Volo book and have a product they can understand.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 26, 2021, 01:33:34 PM
Quote from: The Thing on May 26, 2021, 07:20:01 AM
Yeah yeah you all mostly blame "SJWs" and "Feminazis" for ruining D&D now, but there might be more than that to it.
Long ago gaming like RPGs was a tiny business, the fucking souless suits and corporate bloodsuckers never cared about it.
But it hung in there, growing slowly, but surely, becoming more and more noticed over the decades, and eventually got to where 'businessmen" (SPIT!) became interested.
The same souless, heartless, cold, calculating grey men in their dark suits and tied slowly got into gaming, and of course D&D was the big boy then. The came i with offers of money and marketing, and slowly took over, because they weren't gamers, tyhey were capitalists, and as Bill Maher said, capitalism eats everything.
The camel got its nose under the edge of the tent, and pretty soon the whole ugly, stinking, mean, stubborn beast was in control.
Games weren't by gamers for gamers anymore, they were by businessmen for profit. Game writers were kept around, with a corporate shoe on their necks kept their by businessmen who regarded gamers as stupid geeky losers to bilk money from.
Games became a small bit of big business, with market research and marketing making the big decisions, the game writers were forced to follow the orders of people who weren't gamers but had worked for television, movies, etc. People who didn't understand a game audience is a whole different animal than tv audiences.
And of course, games had to not offend anyone, yes, the marketing departments recognized the so called SJW crowd and pandered to them. Gotta appeal to the zeitsmode, which is exactly what the pioneers of gaming in the late 70's-80's didn't do.
Hell, once upon a time even games workshop was about gamers having fun, not strip mining gamer's wallets. But after a while capitalism's insatiable tentacles wormed their way in and out were the fun, in came the professionals, and the fun was just squeezed out of it for maximum profit. People in suits and ties replaced gamers in tshirts and jeans. And now they're running big gaming. Soulless suits who have zero idea what they're doing but hold up puppets who claim to be gamers and relate to the game public.
Yeah, the outrage brigade and the butthurt battalion did some harm to TTRPGs, (and as a leftist i'm sick of those types too) but In think that 'businessmen" with their "market analysis" and mindless need to make more profit every year helped ruin big gaming companies. A lot of old school gamers were happy if their work paid the bills, they didn;t need to make more and more profit for it's onw sake like the modern 'murcan business model demands.
There are a lot of fingers to point at a lot of things, but let's not just blame it all on the fringe left, hell if you righties had had you way D&D would have been banned for being satanic a long time ago.
Fuck, one thing i love in Ep is the fact it sure ain't being made by (UGH!) fucking businessmen. (SPIT!)
What a childish view of the situation.
I hate it when Big Business wrecks something for a profit margin, but hey, remember that Gary willingly corporatized TSR. Without handling the business side of selling RPGs, you'd probably never have seen Dungeons and Dragons in your local store, or the Sears christmas catalog.
And now the New Hotness is being woke, and middle managers love to pad their metrics with nonsense goals like diversity meetings and racial hiring quotas, instead of actually making fun games.
The Religious Right are a shadow of a memory from decades ago. The Wokesters are on the front porch, right now, demanding D&D be changed to fit their fucked up view of the world.
Hear, hear! Or as illiterate morons say, here here!
Big rant coming up....
My take:
5ed came out almost 7 years ago, and is basically just a rules variant of a game system that's already ~40 years old. At this point there's not really much left to say about it mechanically, but if you want to say something... there's probably either a house rule or full blown edition or "fantasy heartbreaker" already saying it.
Love 5ed, hate 5ed, it's been well enough finished since the three core books came out.
But WotC (and all those indy 3rd Party Publishers) need to push product to pay their bills. And while these games are marketed to people who pride themselves on "imagination" and "creativity", fact is they're just as likely to buy "The Complete Book of Flumphs* vol 4, Revised 8th edition" as anyone else. So they repackage and resell Ravenloft for the third time ("now with 95% new art and 3% new setting info! Using a ruleset that's 50% new!"), and listen to the loudest voices regarding how to better sell- I mean "improve"- the game. Yesterday we had to protect kids from demons and devils in D&D, today we protect adults (who used to be those protected kids) from the horrors of not having adventurers in wheelchairs ("can't you just get some healing magic?" "Stop deprotagonizing me! Now carry me and my chair up those stairs!").
Plus, orcs & drow = black people for "reasons" (I guess gnolls equal Afghanis, and kobolds equal Peruvians? Or does everything equal black people? I'm honestly not sure how this works). I mean, could D&D use more representation? Absolutely! But it should be plausible, and not reactionary. And it shouldn't be based on attitudes that are themselves ignorant and borderline racist ("drows are representative of black people!" "Because they both have people who live for centuries in matriarchal societies based around evil miracles granted by a spider demon-goddess?" "What? No. They both have black skin." "Not all drow have black skin though. Some are blue, or purple. And their features aren't African, and they have long white hair." "... Why do you have to be so racist?").
But that's the big picture. Let's zoom back to the small picture.
5ed has been out for about seven years now. And by this time, most players will have had a chance to play it out. You've probably tried multiple builds, read up the min-max builds, and largely felt like you 10th level Human Champion Fighter isn't all that different from any other 10th level Human Champion Fighter. "But -I- roleplay!" Good for you, but you could probably roleplay that same character in damn near any fantasy system out there. And there's a bunch. Roleplaying isn't unique to D&D anymore (and really, it never was). Meanwhile, as a player, the differences between fighting orcs across hasn't really changed either. Combat in 5ed is simplified, yes, but -everything- is simplified to the point that the game itself starts to feel stale in short order. And the more D&D variants you've played, the faster the newness wears off. If 3ed was too complex and offered too many options, 5ed is too simple and light on options.
And then there's the setting. I'm sorry, but the Sword Coast is boring. Or at least it's presented as such. I know in the hands of good writers it can be more engaging, but the current crop of writers seem to think players will be excited to face Elminster or wander Icewind Dale based on brand name alone. I'm not. And their adventure writing abilities? I remember playing the end of Storm King's Thunder and my DM complaining how overwhelmed he was with a big battle, because it was presented as this huge, multi-character fight sequence between factions, that would've looked great as a cinematic battle you watched rather than something to be played through. But if the battle was presented merely as a block of text to read, people would've complained about railroading (and perhaps rightly so). Or how about Descent into Avernus? Which devotes a ton of pages and text to Baldur's Gate and background art sketches, but comparatively little to Avernus. "It has vehicular combat though!" Oh it has some neat pieces, for sure, but it's missing a good chunk and is largely unplayable as is. But hey, WotC will sell you minis for it!
tl;dr - I -like- 5ed. I've been playing it pretty much exclusively for a few years now. But I also feel like I've seen everything -it- has to offer, and anything good I'd get out of a game would come from the GM/Players and not the books being sold. At this point I don't see anyone ruining it, as they have to make unnecessary pap in order to have something to ruin.
Quote from: Snark Knight on May 26, 2021, 10:59:33 AM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on May 26, 2021, 10:41:57 AM
I think folks are seeing a contradiction that isn't relevant any more. In the past few years, corporate America has gone from 'trying to appeal to everyone' to 'openly siding with one half of the culture wars' in many cases. The changes are being driven by both corporate and creative sides.
Official D&D belongs to the Woke. You're not going to change that unless you get an upheaval like that of 25 years ago.
It's not going to change until the other half actually start speaking with their wallets. How many people on this site bemoan D&D for whatever reason and then not a few pages later admit they bought the New Shiny anyway? Of course RPGs are a bit different to a lot of products in that you can just outright ignore the parts you don't like, but even so, all it's really doing is reaffirming to Wizards and everybody else that what they're doing is working.
Plus most of the 'normies' buying into 5E don't really care. Sure, they don't like being called Privileged Racist W*ite Scum, but they're so Grillpilled and apathetic they just roll with the punches because everyone else is playing D&D so whatever.
I bum off my brother, who is on the woke side. I haven't bought any 5th ed product for myself.
Quote from: Torque2100 on May 26, 2021, 08:53:37 AMThe best advice I can give is: stop being a fan. Of anything. Stop buying everything just because of the name. Become loyal to Creators, not Brands. Follow Creators and buy their stuff if you like their work. Then when the creators leave, follow them. Learn to recognize when Brand and Franchises are locked in the Corporate IP Death Cycle, mourn and move on.
Fucking YES. While I do believe a culture war exists, its unrelated to my belief that stop being a consumerist whore.
I hate how people are fans of 'franchises' not creativity.
People BEG for revivals like addicts instead of identifying that a brand is a disloyal nothing, and by always depending on existing IPs, they make it harder for new fresh stuff to develop.
I bought all the core books, and a few of the supplements. I bought all the core books to 3e too, and never once played it. So I am not the best judge of a purchase meaning something is good. I will say there is zero chance I buy anymore products from them though. Some of the twitter stuff, combined with having to hear a bit too much about things NOT D&D from J.Crawford trying to watch him in a video on youtube and I am out. I think I gave them an honest chance, before I was not a customer, so they can do as they like. Heck, they can still do as they like, I just will not be buying anything from them, and chaining off of my decision (more like these people agreeing with my point of view) they likely lose another 4-6 customers. I am sure for everyone like me, there are 5 watching videos, loving the twitter stances, and can not WAIT to hear about what Jeremy Crawford and his husband did on vacation. So I wish them success, and God Bless them.
I know Paizo also isn't a fan fav around here but they at least put out good rule books with meat inside (unlike WOTC). Pathfinder 2e came out in 2019 since then its had a total of 3 rule books and 3 Bestiary's as well as 6 Campaign books and countless adventures released. They are releasing 3 or 4 more books this year. 2 are rulebooks, one is an equipment book and the last is going to be some named monsters in their setting.
I did buy a set of 5e books for my son about 3 years ago who still plays D&D with his friends online. While he has fun with his friends he does enjoy PF2e more because it has more crunch than 5e.
Quote from: Krugus on May 26, 2021, 06:42:17 PM
I know Paizo also isn't a fan fav around here but they at least put out good rule books with meat inside (unlike WOTC). Pathfinder 2e came out in 2019 since then its had a total of 3 rule books and 3 Bestiary's as well as 6 Campaign books and countless adventures released. They are releasing 3 or 4 more books this year. 2 are rulebooks, one is an equipment book and the last is going to be some named monsters in their setting.
I did buy a set of 5e books for my son about 3 years ago who still plays D&D with his friends online. While he has fun with his friends he does enjoy PF2e more because it has more crunch than 5e.
Please show this to your son.
(https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/653/546/4b2.jpg)
What's ruining D&D 5e?
WotC + SJWs
Quote from: The Thing on May 26, 2021, 07:20:01 AM
... But after a while capitalism's insatiable tentacles wormed their way in and out were the fun, in came the professionals, and the fun was just squeezed out of it for maximum profit. P...
Exploitive greed, and just about any other immoral financial shenanigan you can name are human moral failures, and are not more inherent in capitalism than any other economic policy.
All the moral failings laid down at the feet of capitalism are just as bad if not worse in every other economic system tried by man.
Quote from: Krugus on May 26, 2021, 06:42:17 PM
I know Paizo also isn't a fan fav around here but they at least put out good rule books with meat inside (unlike WOTC). Pathfinder 2e came out in 2019 since then its had a total of 3 rule books and 3 Bestiary's as well as 6 Campaign books and countless adventures released. They are releasing 3 or 4 more books this year. 2 are rulebooks, one is an equipment book and the last is going to be some named monsters in their setting.
I did buy a set of 5e books for my son about 3 years ago who still plays D&D with his friends online. While he has fun with his friends he does enjoy PF2e more because it has more crunch than 5e.
I admit Paizo's Pathfinder 2 rules system is closer to what I'd like out of D&D as an RPG system than 5e. (Not that 5e is per-se bad, but I do think it lacks a little bit of personalization in the mechanics.)
Unfortunately I think Paizo is even worse than WotC when it comes to deliberately injecting its agenda into the game. In one recent PF2 game using a Paizo AP, even one of the players from California couldn't help but remark how implausibly diverse the organization we were trying to gather info about was.
Also, a major factor in TTRPGs going downhill is the way the COG (Corporate Overlord Government) is dumbing down the population by basically making everything dumber and attacking intelligent people.a
look at some classic TV, star trek and the original outer limits. Both tried to pull the audience up, generally, make people think. Compared to the laughtrack soaked formulaic comedies and paint by numbers police shows on tv at the time both those shows were islands of intelligence in an ocean of idiocy.
Now look at JJAs star drek. Mindless action movies, die hard in space. dumbed down and pulling the audience with it instead of trying to pull people up.
Most tv gets dumber by the season, jersey shore, meet the cartrashians, here comes honey boobooo, etc. Why? Because c COG wants it that way. Why do they want it tyhat way? Stupid people are easier to control. They want entertainment that dumbs down the audience, not stuff that makes people think.
Let the master explain it to you.
https://youtu.be/sNXHSMmaq_s
And, sadly, gaming is following the same trend. Now sure, it's still easier to find an intelligent game system than it is to find an intelligent reality show, and there are crunchy systems out there for people who want toms believable game systems that at least produce results that kinda look believable. GURPS has always done that, and what share of the market does it have?
Eclipse phase in a system for intelligent people, and it's barely alive.
meanwhile the quick and easy systems are doing well in the TTRPG market. FATE, savage worlds, etc, those are going pretty well. And that's fine as they're at least gaming. They're still kinda dumbed down systems, but at least people play them and that's ok with me.
But generally everything in america is being dumbed down on the large scale. Plus stupid selfish people are portrayed as cool while intelligent people are generally portrayed in a negative light. Charlie Sheen's character on 2 1/2 men was a selfish moron and he was like then highest paid actor on tv till his real life stupidity killed his gravy train.
Sure we get some intelligent shows like Cosmos and Through the wormhole. Few and far between.
COG wants people to be stupid, selfish, materialistic and proud of it. People like that are very easy to control and unlikely to get smart and decide to take down the system.
And yes, to a degree, that's affecting RPGs as well.
Quote from: The Thing on May 26, 2021, 10:03:21 PM
Also, a major factor in TTRPGs going downhill is the way the COG (Corporate Overlord Government) is dumbing down the population by basically making everything dumber and attacking intelligent people.
That's a very comforting and self-serving worldview matt. If I didn't know you better, I would assume you are trolling.
Hmm, 'cute' little snarky ad hominen on me, not one thing about the post itself.
Also anyone who hasn't be lobotomized by corporate media spew can plainly see that most forms of media are being dumbed down and this has to affect the people watching it, i mean the only way you couldn't see it if if you watch so much it's lowered your I.Q...
Oh, never mind then.
What is ruining D&D and pretty much everything else?
The current iteration of Moral Guardians and fake Feminists. That is it. That is all.
If they were not infesting everything and spreading their cult far and wide the businesses would not be doing half the stupid things they are now. Though with WOTC that would still be pretty bad most likely because with WOTC failure is the only option. Publishers dumbing down games has been a thing since well before D&D. Its just become another marketing mantra now that "players are too stupid to understand complex concepts."
This is just more of the same problems we faced vs the 70s and 90s iterations of this. Just magnified to monsterous proportions this time with the help, again, of marketing who are pushing woke agenda relentlessly along with the other neo-religious mantras marketing worship.
Quote from: The Thing on May 27, 2021, 12:08:19 AM
Hmm, 'cute' little snarky ad hominen on me, not one thing about the post itself.
Yes. Because it would be like me trying to argue with a wino-bum about him not being the emperor of the invisible mole amazons.
Arguing against worldviews that exist largely to validate yourself (me ahm so smar cuz I liek dem star traks and gOOrps) is largely a waste of time.
It's generally more entertaining to watch you embarrass yourself.
You simply cannot talk about corporatisation of D&D or pop-culture media more generally, withou acknowledging the huge amount of complicity that fandom has in this process.
It may have been corporates who decided that media properties should be called "franchises", but it was fans who embraced it, and now use it to talk about pop-culture as if they're Harvard Business School students.
There's a deeply intertwined relationship with corporate capitalism what's convenient for it, and fandom.
This is why I have to agree that embracing the OSR is probably the best answer. Loyalty to corporate properties (D&D, Star Wars, Marvel whatever) needs to stop if you want things to improve. If you want people to stop serving you shit you need to stop eating it first.
Deleted double post.
Quote from: TJS on May 27, 2021, 01:01:36 AMIt may have been corporates who decided that media properties should be called "franchises", but it was fans who embraced it, and now use it to talk about pop-culture as if they're Harvard Business School students.
Yes, this sickens me more than the rebooting itself.
When something reaches mass appeal, it will always be dumbed down, because mass appeal sells.
Don't ask for mass appeal, and stop being loyal to a soulless IP.
As much as it is important to try to wean people off of being passive consumers who buy product and get excited for next product, it's also relevant to acknowledge that this type of behavior is embedded in human nature. Rather than blaming people for being people, it's worth considering that maybe some of the social agreements we have re: copyright, trademark, corporations, and other involved issues should be updated.
Whether we like it or not, things like comic books, D&D, even certain shows and cartoons are cultural fixtures that we use to relate to other people, form bonds and explore moral & philosophical ideas.
Characters like Superman and Batman are almost a century old. That's 5 generations of people who have grown up with these characters but have no meaningful ability to actually engage with the mythos. At a certain point it's no longer morally justifiable to allow fictitious legal entities to control public myth & legend.
Imagine a world where D&D is actually in the public domain where it belongs. We wouldn't have to have conversations about how a fictitious legal entity (WotC) is terrorizing its own playerbase. Things would be wild, crazy, and in that place we'd see a ton of new ideas growing up and forming their own unique identity.
Quote from: Zelen on May 27, 2021, 02:23:52 AM
As much as it is important to try to wean people off of being passive consumers who buy product and get excited for next product, it's also relevant to acknowledge that this type of behavior is embedded in human nature.
Literally, all human behaviour is human nature. That can be used to excuse any and all behaviour. That's a non-argument even.
The stuff you mention as 'Deep cultural fixes' are that way largely due to marketing. Have it fall into the public domain and it will be forgotten overnight and remembered only as a niche thing. This isn't greek tragedy or shapespearean comedy. These are mass consumer products that people have attached their identity in consuming in lieu of producing on their own.
Related to D&D: People have their own new ideas with it all the time as well. Public domain would have these characters just be utterly forgotten. Not 'inspire people to new ideas'.
Edit: Just to be clear I would PREFER they fall into public domain. So they would all die. But thats a bitterness angle from me.
D&D basically is in the public domain.
While there is some really cool stuff that isn't (such as illithid which is a bit of a loss), by and large I think the OSR has shown that being able to reinvent and not beholden to cannon is a net win.
If the OSR had been able to use Grumsh and Corellon Larethion and Greyhawk and the Forgotten Realms I think it would be less than it is.
I would agree with putting Star Wars in the public domain - at the very least it would allow a generation to get it out of their system by ruining their own childhoods rather than relying on Disney to do it for them.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 27, 2021, 02:50:10 AM
Literally, all human behaviour is human nature. That can be used to excuse any and all behaviour. That's a non-argument even.
Sure, but the point is human nature is shaped by our social agreements. Social agreements about how big & powerful fictitious legal entities are allowed to get, what type of rights that fictitious legal entities hold (or don't), ownership of "ideas", and so on. These are highly arbitrary agreements that we can easily change when they are causing harm to society as a whole.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 27, 2021, 02:50:10 AM
Have it fall into the public domain and it will be forgotten overnight and remembered only as a niche thing. This isn't greek tragedy or shapespearean comedy. These are mass consumer products that people have attached their identity in consuming in lieu of producing on their own.
I think you're mischaracterizing Greek plays and Shakespeare by pretending like they're innately higher art forms. Sure, most of our pop culture is crass tripe, but the art that endures has to be both popular and speak to something higher. There's absolutely gems buried in mass consumer art.
Anyway it seems we mostly agree. Obviously letting things pass more easily into public domain doesn't fix every problem, but it does fix the problem of corporations owning the better part of the creative output of the last century. That needs to be fixed undoubtedly, and if that helps wean people off of endless regurgitations of the same IP then all the better.
Quote from: Zelen on May 27, 2021, 03:58:59 AMSure, but the point is human nature is shaped by our social agreements. Social agreements about how big & powerful fictitious legal entities are allowed to get, what type of rights that fictitious legal entities hold (or don't), ownership of "ideas", and so on. These are highly arbitrary agreements that we can easily change when they are causing harm to society as a whole.
I don't believe it's the government's role to protect people from their own stupid decisions. In this case, I don't think copyright law is at fault for a dependant consumer mentality.
I see it as pathetic, that 'Toy Commercial CGI explosion' is seen as some kind of valuable social element on the level of historic myths.
I believe that THIS is the problem. It's not just some pulp trash - it's worthy of sacred elevation!
And yes, I will say historical writings with themes, morality elements, and relations to religious and historical elements are a higher form of art then 'The adventures of captain wonderbread'.
Quote from: TJS on May 27, 2021, 01:01:36 AM
You simply cannot talk about corporatisation of D&D or pop-culture media more generally, withou acknowledging the huge amount of complicity that fandom has in this process.
It may have been corporates who decided that media properties should be called "franchises", but it was fans who embraced it, and now use it to talk about pop-culture as if they're Harvard Business School students.
There's a deeply intertwined relationship with corporate capitalism what's convenient for it, and fandom.
This is why I have to agree that embracing the OSR is probably the best answer. Loyalty to corporate properties (D&D, Star Wars, Marvel whatever) needs to stop if you want things to improve. If you want people to stop serving you shit you need to stop eating it first.
Yes, which is why pirating books is almost as bad as purchasing them. The few dollars lost on grognard pirates isn't going to negatively affect Hasbro: the corporate suits are gleeful that you too are encouraging the popularity of their product.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 27, 2021, 10:00:41 AM
Quote from: Zelen on May 27, 2021, 03:58:59 AMSure, but the point is human nature is shaped by our social agreements. Social agreements about how big & powerful fictitious legal entities are allowed to get, what type of rights that fictitious legal entities hold (or don't), ownership of "ideas", and so on. These are highly arbitrary agreements that we can easily change when they are causing harm to society as a whole.
I don't believe it's the government's role to protect people from their own stupid decisions. In this case, I don't think copyright law is at fault for a dependant consumer mentality.
I see it as pathetic, that 'Toy Commercial CGI explosion' is seen as some kind of valuable social element on the level of historic myths.
I believe that THIS is the problem. It's not just some pulp trash - it's worthy of sacred elevation!
And yes, I will say historical writings with themes, morality elements, and relations to religious and historical elements are a higher form of art then 'The adventures of captain wonderbread'.
Huzzah. I yearn for a world where instead of The Avengers we have The Iliad. Not because I want to get excited for the product so I can consume it, but so that the Western canon reaches as mass an audience as possible. How many young people can identify Captain America and not Hector? The Hulk but not Ajax? Instead we have crass garbage, made for a global audience, devoid of meaning beyond "don't be mean" or "it's good when friends work together to solve a problem." Children movies used to be a means to transmit culture; those days are over.
Quote from: horsesoldier on May 27, 2021, 10:45:19 AM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 27, 2021, 10:00:41 AM
Quote from: Zelen on May 27, 2021, 03:58:59 AMSure, but the point is human nature is shaped by our social agreements. Social agreements about how big & powerful fictitious legal entities are allowed to get, what type of rights that fictitious legal entities hold (or don't), ownership of "ideas", and so on. These are highly arbitrary agreements that we can easily change when they are causing harm to society as a whole.
I don't believe it's the government's role to protect people from their own stupid decisions. In this case, I don't think copyright law is at fault for a dependant consumer mentality.
I see it as pathetic, that 'Toy Commercial CGI explosion' is seen as some kind of valuable social element on the level of historic myths.
I believe that THIS is the problem. It's not just some pulp trash - it's worthy of sacred elevation!
And yes, I will say historical writings with themes, morality elements, and relations to religious and historical elements are a higher form of art then 'The adventures of captain wonderbread'.
Huzzah. I yearn for a world where instead of The Avengers we have The Iliad. Not because I want to get excited for the product so I can consume it, but so that the Western canon reaches as mass an audience as possible. How many young people can identify Captain America and not Hector? The Hulk but not Ajax? Instead we have crass garbage, made for a global audience, devoid of meaning beyond "don't be mean" or "it's good when friends work together to solve a problem." Children movies used to be a means to transmit culture; those days are over.
I mean, I still teach those stories to kids in high school. Most schools do. The problem I think isn't the canon isn't a part of the pop culture, you can see elements of it in most stories. The problem to me is that there are a lot of people that thinking they are doing good by destroying the canon we impart mostly in school. You're right that some previous media did impart that culture, however.
Quote from: Torque2100 on May 26, 2021, 08:53:37 AM
Nail, Head, ETC.
I'm really starting to think that the "Culture War" doesn't actually exist. It's shadow puppets to keep the masses entertained while the Corpos just carry on doing whatever they were already going to do anyway. "Consoom Product to Defeat our Cultural Enemies" is just a marketing gimmick like everything else.
Relating these two thoughts together, I think the culture war does exist, but I think things are exacerbated by a few things. Namely, marketing. I do think Torque is partially right, but I think that the culture war is actually amplified through marketing, the suits thinking they bake this concept in it gives the masses the sense that they are on their side, giving them what they way, etc. One key thing however is Algorithms. Targeted advertising has changed the internet even in the past ten years in ways that are hard to come to grips with. Quite frankly, most marketers have profiles on just about everyone. I think that this has created an environment where you are constantly bombarded by things that the system thinks you already like.
Much has already been said that this creates echo chambers, and obviously leads people to extreme positions. But I think something can be said for this affecting how we relate to one another culturally, including passing culture on. We make jokes about consume product and what not, it is true, but even just passing on cultural myths, I think this system has affected it in more ways than one. Culture has felt paralyzed to me for a long time for a variety of factors, but I think this is a big part of the reason why. I think D&D has been affected by it as well, making and marketing in a style where there is no hard, set morals, everyone can be good, etc. Tearing concepts down and trying to appeal to the most people, including a very loud contingent of wokesters for lack of a better word, to maximize profit.
Quote from: horsesoldier on May 27, 2021, 10:45:19 AMHuzzah. I yearn for a world where instead of The Avengers we have The Iliad.
Now to be clear from my end: The world has always been stupid, and 'intellectual' things will never have mass appeal.
Before movies, people went to see slapstick. Which is theatre about people getting hit with sticks.
But people were not watching slapstick and saying it was high theatre or literature. There is a place (and I would say a necessity) for both.
And in general, kids would not identify as hector because imagining yourself as a magical police officer is more relatable in the current world than being a military leader of a city-state.
Quote from: Krugus on May 26, 2021, 06:42:17 PM
I know Paizo also isn't a fan fav around here but they at least put out good rule books with meat inside (unlike WOTC). Pathfinder 2e came out in 2019 since then its had a total of 3 rule books and 3 Bestiary's as well as 6 Campaign books and countless adventures released. They are releasing 3 or 4 more books this year. 2 are rulebooks, one is an equipment book and the last is going to be some named monsters in their setting.
I did buy a set of 5e books for my son about 3 years ago who still plays D&D with his friends online. While he has fun with his friends he does enjoy PF2e more because it has more crunch than 5e.
The crunch I liked in 1st Edition, but as soon as it became obvious what kind of company Paizo was, dropped them into the trash like moldy pizza.
Makes you wonder what would've happened if instead of the Satanic Panic, Christians of the '80s and '90s worked their way into the industry and helped shape it.
Quote from: Omega on May 27, 2021, 12:33:11 AM
What is ruining D&D and pretty much everything else?
The current iteration of Moral Guardians and fake Feminists. That is it. That is all.
If they were not infesting everything and spreading their cult far and wide the businesses would not be doing half the stupid things they are now. Though with WOTC that would still be pretty bad most likely because with WOTC failure is the only option. Publishers dumbing down games has been a thing since well before D&D. Its just become another marketing mantra now that "players are too stupid to understand complex concepts."
This is just more of the same problems we faced vs the 70s and 90s iterations of this. Just magnified to monsterous proportions this time with the help, again, of marketing who are pushing woke agenda relentlessly along with the other neo-religious mantras marketing worship.
You contards will fucking blame anyone but the people with the real wealth and power. Absolutely anyone.
Reagan (May he rot in hell) blamed all america's ecopnomic woes on the most powerless people in america and made them sound powerful and dangerous by calling them "welfare queens". While the bastard gutted regulations and let corporations run wild, beginning the end of the middle class, he blamed people with no power at all. In reagan's already alzheimers addled brain "With great power comes no responsibility." was the rule. The poor and powerless were to blame fior all societies ills.
If 'fake feminists" are so fucking powerful why can't they fill congress with pro feminist members?
Blame welfare queens, blame illegal aliens, blame feminists, blame SJWs, anyone but the rich and powerful.
You contards are incredibly stupid.
It's not SJWs per se that are ruining 5e. But they are in the same way that they are ruining DC and Marvel. And that is the fact that SJWs have no skill or professionalism and as a result what they produce is lack luster at best and outright garbage at worst. There's no shining bright spot in recent products that give me renewed faith in their ability to create adequate products.
I don't quite understand, I banned The Thing, didn't I? How the hell is he posting? Or is this a different one?
In any case, banned again.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 27, 2021, 11:38:14 AM
Quote from: horsesoldier on May 27, 2021, 10:45:19 AMHuzzah. I yearn for a world where instead of The Avengers we have The Iliad.
Now to be clear from my end: The world has always been stupid, and 'intellectual' things will never have mass appeal.
Before movies, people went to see slapstick. Which is theatre about people getting hit with sticks.
But people were not watching slapstick and saying it was high theatre or literature. There is a place (and I would say a necessity) for both.
And in general, kids would not identify as hector because imagining yourself as a magical police officer is more relatable in the current world than being a military leader of a city-state.
Yep. I can't stand the attitude that everything has to be ancient and "highbrow" or whatever. I liked the MCU movies until they ran them into the ground. I like lots of different stuff. Can't say I've reat The Iliad though.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 27, 2021, 05:38:04 PM
Can't say I've reat The Iliad though.
It's definitely worth reading. Great inspiration for fantasy. You'll probably be familiar with some of the material just by osmosis, but the details and how it plays out will probably be different from what you'd expect.
Quote from: RPGPundit on May 27, 2021, 05:06:23 PM
I don't quite understand, I banned The Thing, didn't I? How the hell is he posting? Or is this a different one?
In any case, banned again.
No, You banned "This Guy" (or That Guy maybe) for being the sock of Matt whatsisface, but "The Thing" was the recognized sock puppet (same posting style as Matt, appeared right after ban). "This/That Guy" was equally Leftist, but I don't think he was a sock of Matt, just a fellow traveler... though one who was marginally more on topic.
Whether that deserves a second look or not is above my pay grade.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 27, 2021, 05:38:04 PM
Yep. I can't stand the attitude that everything has to be ancient and "highbrow" or whatever. I liked the MCU movies until they ran them into the ground. I like lots of different stuff. Can't say I've reat The Iliad though.
The old stuff wasn't deliberately highbrow anyway. The Iliad is more than WWE wrestling, but you can see that they both speak to the same core masculinity.
Quote from: Chris24601 on May 27, 2021, 06:13:15 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on May 27, 2021, 05:06:23 PM
I don't quite understand, I banned The Thing, didn't I? How the hell is he posting? Or is this a different one?
In any case, banned again.
No, You banned "This Guy" (or That Guy maybe) for being the sock of Matt whatsisface, but "The Thing" was the recognized sock puppet (same posting style as Matt, appeared right after ban). "This/That Guy" was equally Leftist, but I don't think he was a sock of Matt, just a fellow traveler... though one who was marginally more on topic.
Whether that deserves a second look or not is above my pay grade.
Something's weird about This Guy. He used to make intelligent posts with capitalization and punctuation, but the last couple of days were one-liners in all lowercase without punctuation in which he was just insulting the people he was replying to, basically exactly like Matt. I dunno if he was just drunk, if his account got compromised and someone else was writing that, or if he was actually Matt all along playing some weird long con with an account that he could refrain from ranting at people like a crazy person, but something isn't adding up.
Quote from: Valatar on May 27, 2021, 06:45:21 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on May 27, 2021, 06:13:15 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on May 27, 2021, 05:06:23 PM
I don't quite understand, I banned The Thing, didn't I? How the hell is he posting? Or is this a different one?
In any case, banned again.
No, You banned "This Guy" (or That Guy maybe) for being the sock of Matt whatsisface, but "The Thing" was the recognized sock puppet (same posting style as Matt, appeared right after ban). "This/That Guy" was equally Leftist, but I don't think he was a sock of Matt, just a fellow traveler... though one who was marginally more on topic.
Whether that deserves a second look or not is above my pay grade.
Something's weird about This Guy. He used to make intelligent posts with capitalization and punctuation, but the last couple of days were one-liners in all lowercase without punctuation in which he was just insulting the people he was replying to, basically exactly like Matt. I dunno if he was just drunk, if his account got compromised and someone else was writing that, or if he was actually Matt all along playing some weird long con with an account that he could refrain from ranting at people like a crazy person, but something isn't adding up.
My suspicion is that we've got a few members who got pissy over whatever and started up a few sockpuppet accounts to get around ignore lists and bannings.
Can't be sure, of course, but I've viewed all the latest new members as likely sockpuppets. Especially if they come pre-loaded with opinions about topics in progress or bannings and ignore lists.
Quote from: horsesoldier on May 27, 2021, 10:45:19 AM
I yearn for a world where instead of The Avengers we have The Iliad. Not because I want to get excited for the product so I can consume it, but so that the Western canon reaches as mass an audience as possible. How many young people can identify Captain America and not Hector? The Hulk but not Ajax? Instead we have crass garbage, made for a global audience, devoid of meaning beyond "don't be mean" or "it's good when friends work together to solve a problem." Children movies used to be a means to transmit culture; those days are over.
(emphasis mine)
Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 27, 2021, 05:38:04 PM
Yep. I can't stand the attitude that everything has to be ancient and "highbrow" or whatever. I liked the MCU movies until they ran them into the ground. I like lots of different stuff. Can't say I've reat The Iliad though.
I've read the Iliad, but I'm more with Ratman_tf than with horsesoldier here. I'm curious what he thinks were good children's movies that transmitted culture. I raised my son to enjoy watching both old media and new media - so he grew up watching a lot of older children's movies. His favorite for a long time was That Darn Cat (1965).
I don't think older movies transmitted culture any more or less than current movies. They were produced to crassly make money, just like the current movies, and they're also works of art. It's not Homer or Shakespeare - but it's as good as the average historical works, like medieval morality plays or slapstick and such.
I'm like at least some private and public arts funding, but there's nothing wrong with commercial art either. Shakespeare was commercial art, made to make money from a broad audience.
As I said, D&D has always been commercial - and been corporate since 1980 at least - and there's nothing wrong with that IMO.
Quote from: Chris24601 on May 27, 2021, 06:13:15 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on May 27, 2021, 05:06:23 PM
I don't quite understand, I banned The Thing, didn't I? How the hell is he posting? Or is this a different one?
In any case, banned again.
No, You banned "This Guy" (or That Guy maybe) for being the sock of Matt whatsisface, but "The Thing" was the recognized sock puppet (same posting style as Matt, appeared right after ban). "This/That Guy" was equally Leftist, but I don't think he was a sock of Matt, just a fellow traveler... though one who was marginally more on topic.
Whether that deserves a second look or not is above my pay grade.
Oh right.
This guy was Matt too. He actually sent me an email from the address he had for This Guy, saying "You win this round, pundit".
Quote from: RPGPundit on May 27, 2021, 07:22:13 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on May 27, 2021, 06:13:15 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on May 27, 2021, 05:06:23 PM
I don't quite understand, I banned The Thing, didn't I? How the hell is he posting? Or is this a different one?
In any case, banned again.
No, You banned "This Guy" (or That Guy maybe) for being the sock of Matt whatsisface, but "The Thing" was the recognized sock puppet (same posting style as Matt, appeared right after ban). "This/That Guy" was equally Leftist, but I don't think he was a sock of Matt, just a fellow traveler... though one who was marginally more on topic.
Whether that deserves a second look or not is above my pay grade.
Oh right.
This guy was Matt too. He actually sent me an email from the address he had for This Guy, saying "You win this round, pundit".
Greetings!
Pundit, excellent. This Guy was a total jackass, continuously violated the rules, and added nothing positive at all to the board here, or virtually any discussion he dropped into. He was corrosive poison, non-stop. This Guy, The Thing, and UndyingDM are all fruit from the same tree.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: jhkim on May 27, 2021, 07:19:25 PM
Quote from: horsesoldier on May 27, 2021, 10:45:19 AM
I yearn for a world where instead of The Avengers we have The Iliad. Not because I want to get excited for the product so I can consume it, but so that the Western canon reaches as mass an audience as possible. How many young people can identify Captain America and not Hector? The Hulk but not Ajax? Instead we have crass garbage, made for a global audience, devoid of meaning beyond "don't be mean" or "it's good when friends work together to solve a problem." Children movies used to be a means to transmit culture; those days are over.
(emphasis mine)
Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 27, 2021, 05:38:04 PM
Yep. I can't stand the attitude that everything has to be ancient and "highbrow" or whatever. I liked the MCU movies until they ran them into the ground. I like lots of different stuff. Can't say I've reat The Iliad though.
I've read the Iliad, but I'm more with Ratman_tf than with horsesoldier here. I'm curious what he thinks were good children's movies that transmitted culture. I raised my son to enjoy watching both old media and new media - so he grew up watching a lot of older children's movies. His favorite for a long time was That Darn Cat (1965).
I don't think older movies transmitted culture any more or less than current movies.
I agree. Movies were never very good at transmitting either deep or high culture. But what they did used to do was to transmit the common culture. They were good at teaching people everyday people the basic values of the common society. You learned the basics of how to be a good citizen, and also what society considered a good hero.
Both of those things were eroded from the early 70s onward. To the point that now all Hollywood films are essentially Anti-Western Propaganda meant to teach people to despise their own culture and nation.
Quote from: SHARK on May 27, 2021, 07:26:44 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on May 27, 2021, 07:22:13 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on May 27, 2021, 06:13:15 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on May 27, 2021, 05:06:23 PM
I don't quite understand, I banned The Thing, didn't I? How the hell is he posting? Or is this a different one?
In any case, banned again.
No, You banned "This Guy" (or That Guy maybe) for being the sock of Matt whatsisface, but "The Thing" was the recognized sock puppet (same posting style as Matt, appeared right after ban). "This/That Guy" was equally Leftist, but I don't think he was a sock of Matt, just a fellow traveler... though one who was marginally more on topic.
Whether that deserves a second look or not is above my pay grade.
Oh right.
This guy was Matt too. He actually sent me an email from the address he had for This Guy, saying "You win this round, pundit".
Greetings!
Pundit, excellent. This Guy was a total jackass, continuously violated the rules, and added nothing positive at all to the board here, or virtually any discussion he dropped into. He was corrosive poison, non-stop. This Guy, The Thing, and UndyingDM are all fruit from the same tree.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
They were all literally the same dude.
Quote from: RPGPundit on May 27, 2021, 07:22:13 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on May 27, 2021, 06:13:15 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on May 27, 2021, 05:06:23 PM
I don't quite understand, I banned The Thing, didn't I? How the hell is he posting? Or is this a different one?
In any case, banned again.
No, You banned "This Guy" (or That Guy maybe) for being the sock of Matt whatsisface, but "The Thing" was the recognized sock puppet (same posting style as Matt, appeared right after ban). "This/That Guy" was equally Leftist, but I don't think he was a sock of Matt, just a fellow traveler... though one who was marginally more on topic.
Whether that deserves a second look or not is above my pay grade.
Oh right.
This guy was Matt too. He actually sent me an email from the address he had for This Guy, saying "You win this round, pundit".
Maybe the guy should take up a hobby for all that free time he has. I hear RPGs are pretty fun.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 27, 2021, 07:33:09 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on May 27, 2021, 07:22:13 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on May 27, 2021, 06:13:15 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on May 27, 2021, 05:06:23 PM
I don't quite understand, I banned The Thing, didn't I? How the hell is he posting? Or is this a different one?
In any case, banned again.
No, You banned "This Guy" (or That Guy maybe) for being the sock of Matt whatsisface, but "The Thing" was the recognized sock puppet (same posting style as Matt, appeared right after ban). "This/That Guy" was equally Leftist, but I don't think he was a sock of Matt, just a fellow traveler... though one who was marginally more on topic.
Whether that deserves a second look or not is above my pay grade.
Oh right.
This guy was Matt too. He actually sent me an email from the address he had for This Guy, saying "You win this round, pundit".
Maybe the guy should take up a hobby for all that free time he has. I hear RPGs are pretty fun.
Back to spreading your alternative facts, eh? :P
Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 27, 2021, 07:33:09 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on May 27, 2021, 07:22:13 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on May 27, 2021, 06:13:15 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on May 27, 2021, 05:06:23 PM
I don't quite understand, I banned The Thing, didn't I? How the hell is he posting? Or is this a different one?
In any case, banned again.
No, You banned "This Guy" (or That Guy maybe) for being the sock of Matt whatsisface, but "The Thing" was the recognized sock puppet (same posting style as Matt, appeared right after ban). "This/That Guy" was equally Leftist, but I don't think he was a sock of Matt, just a fellow traveler... though one who was marginally more on topic.
Whether that deserves a second look or not is above my pay grade.
Oh right.
This guy was Matt too. He actually sent me an email from the address he had for This Guy, saying "You win this round, pundit".
Maybe the guy should take up a hobby for all that free time he has. I hear RPGs are pretty fun.
You win the thread. I laughed. :D
Quote from: RPGPundit on May 27, 2021, 07:22:13 PM
Oh right.
This guy was Matt too. He actually sent me an email from the address he had for This Guy, saying "You win this round, pundit".
Pfft, ha. What does he think is he? A Bond villain?
Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 27, 2021, 07:33:09 PM
Maybe the guy should take up a hobby for all that free time he has. I hear RPGs are pretty fun.
Those take effort, though. Not that guy's style I don't think.
Quote from: RPGPundit on May 27, 2021, 07:22:13 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on May 27, 2021, 06:13:15 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on May 27, 2021, 05:06:23 PM
I don't quite understand, I banned The Thing, didn't I? How the hell is he posting? Or is this a different one?
In any case, banned again.
No, You banned "This Guy" (or That Guy maybe) for being the sock of Matt whatsisface, but "The Thing" was the recognized sock puppet (same posting style as Matt, appeared right after ban). "This/That Guy" was equally Leftist, but I don't think he was a sock of Matt, just a fellow traveler... though one who was marginally more on topic.
Whether that deserves a second look or not is above my pay grade.
Oh right.
This guy was Matt too. He actually sent me an email from the address he had for This Guy, saying "You win this round, pundit".
Makes sense in retrospect; who wears just one sock?
Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 27, 2021, 07:33:09 PM
Maybe the guy should take up a hobby for all that free time he has. I hear RPGs are pretty fun.
And THAT should pretty much be the thread.
Because what's ruining 5e D&D is nothing more or less than the people in charge and the loud minority egging them on not caring that D&D is a game meant for entertainment and instead just treating it as a vehicle for their virtue signaling and hammer against those who question their "virtues."
Quote from: RPGPundit on May 27, 2021, 07:29:03 PM
Quote from: SHARK on May 27, 2021, 07:26:44 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on May 27, 2021, 07:22:13 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on May 27, 2021, 06:13:15 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on May 27, 2021, 05:06:23 PM
I don't quite understand, I banned The Thing, didn't I? How the hell is he posting? Or is this a different one?
In any case, banned again.
No, You banned "This Guy" (or That Guy maybe) for being the sock of Matt whatsisface, but "The Thing" was the recognized sock puppet (same posting style as Matt, appeared right after ban). "This/That Guy" was equally Leftist, but I don't think he was a sock of Matt, just a fellow traveler... though one who was marginally more on topic.
Whether that deserves a second look or not is above my pay grade.
Oh right.
This guy was Matt too. He actually sent me an email from the address he had for This Guy, saying "You win this round, pundit".
Greetings!
Pundit, excellent. This Guy was a total jackass, continuously violated the rules, and added nothing positive at all to the board here, or virtually any discussion he dropped into. He was corrosive poison, non-stop. This Guy, The Thing, and UndyingDM are all fruit from the same tree.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
They were all literally the same dude.
Greetings!
Ahh, yes. Of course. I think many of us suspected that to be the case.
By the way, Pundit, as last I saw, UNDYINGDM does not have *BANNED* on his tag. Perhaps you overlooked that.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 27, 2021, 11:38:14 AM
Quote from: horsesoldier on May 27, 2021, 10:45:19 AMHuzzah. I yearn for a world where instead of The Avengers we have The Iliad.
Now to be clear from my end: The world has always been stupid, and 'intellectual' things will never have mass appeal.
Before movies, people went to see slapstick. Which is theatre about people getting hit with sticks.
But people were not watching slapstick and saying it was high theatre or literature. There is a place (and I would say a necessity) for both.
And in general, kids would not identify as hector because imagining yourself as a magical police officer is more relatable in the current world than being a military leader of a city-state.
Well, kids at one time did identify with Hector, but as you said we have the fast food equivalent of mass media now. Doesn't have to be the Iliad, it could be El Cid or Hercules or King Arthur. We're replacing our legends and cultural heritage with capeshit.
Quote from: horsesoldier on May 28, 2021, 09:05:11 AMWell, kids at one time did identify with Hector, but as you said we have the fast food equivalent of mass media now.
I would argue that the ones that did were always a minority of the population. I dislike the mass capeshit we have now, but I don't like pretending the past was something else.
Quote from: jhkim on May 27, 2021, 07:19:25 PM
Quote from: horsesoldier on May 27, 2021, 10:45:19 AM
I yearn for a world where instead of The Avengers we have The Iliad. Not because I want to get excited for the product so I can consume it, but so that the Western canon reaches as mass an audience as possible. How many young people can identify Captain America and not Hector? The Hulk but not Ajax? Instead we have crass garbage, made for a global audience, devoid of meaning beyond "don't be mean" or "it's good when friends work together to solve a problem." Children movies used to be a means to transmit culture; those days are over.
(emphasis mine)
Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 27, 2021, 05:38:04 PM
Yep. I can't stand the attitude that everything has to be ancient and "highbrow" or whatever. I liked the MCU movies until they ran them into the ground. I like lots of different stuff. Can't say I've reat The Iliad though.
I've read the Iliad, but I'm more with Ratman_tf than with horsesoldier here. I'm curious what he thinks were good children's movies that transmitted culture. I raised my son to enjoy watching both old media and new media - so he grew up watching a lot of older children's movies. His favorite for a long time was That Darn Cat (1965).
I don't think older movies transmitted culture any more or less than current movies. They were produced to crassly make money, just like the current movies, and they're also works of art. It's not Homer or Shakespeare - but it's as good as the average historical works, like medieval morality plays or slapstick and such.
I'm like at least some private and public arts funding, but there's nothing wrong with commercial art either. Shakespeare was commercial art, made to make money from a broad audience.
As I said, D&D has always been commercial - and been corporate since 1980 at least - and there's nothing wrong with that IMO.
Pinocchio, Sleeping Beauty, Snow White and the Seven Dwarves. Various iterations of Hansel and Gretel (these I recall in shorter form, cartoon productions). Same with the Three Little Pigs and Little Red Riding Hood. These stories would have been familiar to various common folk across Europe for centuries. As pundit pointed out and I neglected to make clear, I wasn't referring to culture as in what fork to use when I'm eating crab or the order in which a Wagner opera is played, but common culture.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 27, 2021, 05:38:04 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 27, 2021, 11:38:14 AM
Quote from: horsesoldier on May 27, 2021, 10:45:19 AMHuzzah. I yearn for a world where instead of The Avengers we have The Iliad.
Now to be clear from my end: The world has always been stupid, and 'intellectual' things will never have mass appeal.
Before movies, people went to see slapstick. Which is theatre about people getting hit with sticks.
But people were not watching slapstick and saying it was high theatre or literature. There is a place (and I would say a necessity) for both.
And in general, kids would not identify as hector because imagining yourself as a magical police officer is more relatable in the current world than being a military leader of a city-state.
Yep. I can't stand the attitude that everything has to be ancient and "highbrow" or whatever. I liked the MCU movies until they ran them into the ground. I like lots of different stuff. Can't say I've reat The Iliad though.
Just because it's old doesn't make it better, but I will take ancient stories that are part of our culture over crap made for a global audience. Even the early Marvel movies are markedly different than the more recent ones; Disney discovered that China money, just like WWE and the NBA has. As a parent should I rely on Disney to transmit culture? No. But parents used to be able to use mass media as a way to help supplement. Showtime used to have Faerie Tale Theatre, and it showed European folk tales (amongst others). You'd never see that now.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 28, 2021, 09:16:01 AM
Quote from: horsesoldier on May 28, 2021, 09:05:11 AMWell, kids at one time did identify with Hector, but as you said we have the fast food equivalent of mass media now.
I would argue that the ones that did were always a minority of the population. I dislike the mass capeshit we have now, but I don't like pretending the past was something else.
Sure, they identified with local legends or fables that have been lost to the mists of time. Perhaps I should have said Hercules, Hercules was indeed the equivalent of a caped hero in the Greek world.
Little boys are going to pretend to be someone when they're stick fighting and they've been doing that since the opposable thumb.
Quote from: horsesoldier on May 28, 2021, 09:26:11 AMSure, they identified with local legends or fables that have been lost to the mists of time. Perhaps I should have said Hercules, Hercules was indeed the equivalent of a caped hero in the Greek world.
Id argue that's not really the case or (in my opinion) the problem.
80 years ago they might have been interested in Flash Gordon, or The Shadow, The Lone Ranger, or Conan the Barbarian.
In my opinion, the problem is that George Lucas adapted the action serials he liked as a kid into Star Wars. Taking inspiration, but not just a direct rip on the stories of his youth.
Nowadays, people have a DEPENDENCE on Star Wars. They talk about it as if it's a holy scripture being profaned. Instead of taking inspiration for their own stories, their imagination ENDS at these stories.
That is my problem.
Quote from: horsesoldier on May 28, 2021, 09:22:09 AM
Quote from: jhkim on May 27, 2021, 07:19:25 PM
I've read the Iliad, but I'm more with Ratman_tf than with horsesoldier here. I'm curious what he thinks were good children's movies that transmitted culture. I raised my son to enjoy watching both old media and new media - so he grew up watching a lot of older children's movies. His favorite for a long time was That Darn Cat (1965).
Pinocchio, Sleeping Beauty, Snow White and the Seven Dwarves. Various iterations of Hansel and Gretel (these I recall in shorter form, cartoon productions). Same with the Three Little Pigs and Little Red Riding Hood. These stories would have been familiar to various common folk across Europe for centuries. As pundit pointed out and I neglected to make clear, I wasn't referring to culture as in what fork to use when I'm eating crab or the order in which a Wagner opera is played, but common culture.
OK, I think I see what you are intending here. But it seems to me that children's movies from centuries-old stories were *always* the rare exception, never the norm. Incidentally, Pinocchio is from an 1883 novel, not a centuries-old folk tale. It's like Alice in Wonderland or Winnie the Pooh. Looking at Disney's movies based on centuries-old European stories, I see:
1937: Snow White
1950: Cinderella
1959: Sleeping Beauty
1963: The Sword in the Stone
1973: Robin Hood
1989: The Little Mermaid
1991: Beauty and the Beast
1997: Hercules
2010: Tangled
2013: Frozen
That's barely more than one a decade. I'll buy that the first three are slightly more direct adaptations of the fairy tales than the later ones, but all of them are very loose and in any case, the vast majority of old children's movies were *not* centuries-old stories, but more often things like Bambi, Dumbo, or That Darn Cat. And that's fine. Most entertainment in any age wasn't centuries-old stories, but new stories informed by the older ones as well as the current times. It seems to me that new stories like Pinnochio, Alice in Wonderland, Peter Pan, Winnie the Pooh, The Jungle Book, and so forth are just as much common culture as Grimm's fairy tales.
Quote from: horsesoldier on May 28, 2021, 09:22:09 AM
Just because it's old doesn't make it better, but I will take ancient stories that are part of our culture over crap made for a global audience. Even the early Marvel movies are markedly different than the more recent ones; Disney discovered that China money, just like WWE and the NBA has. As a parent should I rely on Disney to transmit culture? No. But parents used to be able to use mass media as a way to help supplement. Showtime used to have Faerie Tale Theatre, and it showed European folk tales (amongst others). You'd never see that now.
I think that technology and globalization makes it a lot easier for parents now compared to parents a half century ago. There's much easier access to both old and new American movies, but also from other countries. If you're European-American and want to connect to old European culture, you can access movies and shows from Europe more easily than ever.
Speaking as a Korean-American, even in the early 2000s, I had to struggle to find this sort of material for my son to help connect him to Korean roots - whereas it was much easier for his European side. He never watched old Disney movies, but he was a voracious reader and the Green Fairy Tale book was one of his favorites.
Quote from: horsesoldier on May 28, 2021, 09:22:09 AM
Pinocchio, Sleeping Beauty, Snow White and the Seven Dwarves. Various iterations of Hansel and Gretel (these I recall in shorter form, cartoon productions). Same with the Three Little Pigs and Little Red Riding Hood. These stories would have been familiar to various common folk across Europe for centuries. As pundit pointed out and I neglected to make clear, I wasn't referring to culture as in what fork to use when I'm eating crab or the order in which a Wagner opera is played, but common culture.
A slight correction on a common misconception: Pinocchio was an 1883 children's novel, not directly based on any folk story. The writer, Collodi, was somewhat an expert on myth and symbolism, however.
Quote from: jhkim on May 28, 2021, 12:28:10 PM
OK, I think I see what you are intending here. But it seems to me that children's movies from centuries-old stories were *always* the rare exception, never the norm. Incidentally, Pinocchio is from an 1883 novel, not a centuries-old folk tale. It's like Alice in Wonderland or Winnie the Pooh. Looking at Disney's movies based on centuries-old European stories, I see:
1937: Snow White
1950: Cinderella
1959: Sleeping Beauty
1963: The Sword in the Stone
1973: Robin Hood
1989: The Little Mermaid
1991: Beauty and the Beast
1997: Hercules
2010: Tangled
2013: Frozen
That's barely more than one a decade. I'll buy that the first three are slightly more direct adaptations of the fairy tales than the later ones, but all of them are very loose and in any case, the vast majority of old children's movies were *not* centuries-old stories, but more often things like Bambi, Dumbo, or That Darn Cat. And that's fine. Most entertainment in any age wasn't centuries-old stories, but new stories informed by the older ones as well as the current times. It seems to me that new stories like Pinnochio, Alice in Wonderland, Peter Pan, Winnie the Pooh, The Jungle Book, and so forth are just as much common culture as Grimm's fairy tales.
Theres more than that if you include live action and any shorts.
Scarecrow of Romny Marsh, Paul Bunyan, Pecos Bill, and a few others have likely forgotten.
More apt is Disney himself loved to adapt stuff to screen. BUT. He also loved to change things small or very large. His range of interests in legends and literature was broad indeed. If you glance at his film history you see quite a few are adaptions of some book or legend. Mostly books current or not so current at the time.
After frozen I don't want modern Disney touching any myths or legends.
Im pretty sure Frozen isnt based on any myths or legends. Ive heard some claim its a retelling of the Snow Queen. But Frozen resembles that none at all other than person with ice powers. They could have called it Jane Frost and been good to go.
Quote from: Omega on May 29, 2021, 12:30:00 PM
Im pretty sure Frozen isnt based on any myths or legends. Ive heard some claim its a retelling of the Snow Queen. But Frozen resembles that none at all other than person with ice powers. They could have called it Jane Frost and been good to go.
Frozen is Disney rewriting the classic myths of Kislev and its Ice Queen.
Quote from: Omega on May 29, 2021, 12:30:00 PM
Ive heard some claim its a retelling of the Snow Queen. But Frozen resembles that none at all other than person with ice powers.
Exactly. Disney threw out an already fantastic (girl power) story and just used it to tell trite jokes.
Quote from: HappyDaze on May 29, 2021, 12:36:06 PM
Quote from: Omega on May 29, 2021, 12:30:00 PM
Im pretty sure Frozen isnt based on any myths or legends. Ive heard some claim its a retelling of the Snow Queen. But Frozen resembles that none at all other than person with ice powers. They could have called it Jane Frost and been good to go.
Frozen is Disney rewriting the classic myths of Kislev and its Ice Queen.
Put the character names in a good order and say them real fast all at once, and you'll hear something like "hanschristenandersson"
Quote from: HappyDaze on May 29, 2021, 12:36:06 PM
Frozen is Disney rewriting the classic myths of Kislev and its Ice Queen.
And as others noted, it bears little resemblance to the original. But likewise, while The Sword in the Stone has some resemblance to the E.B. White novel, it has extremely little in common with the original King Arthur legends. The Robin Hood feature with Sir Hiss and Lady Cluck has little to do with the original stories. The Little Mermaid has pretty massive differences from the original story as well, etc.
Basically, if as a parent one wants one's child to learn about centuries-old European myth, Disney films are only a minor source at best. There's only a handful of films that do so, and vary from major to unrecognizable in their differences. In some sense, _Into the Woods_ and _Shrek_ are as good an introduction to the stories.
Quote from: Omega on May 29, 2021, 11:57:30 AM
Theres more than that if you include live action and any shorts.
Scarecrow of Romny Marsh, Paul Bunyan, Pecos Bill, and a few others have likely forgotten.
More apt is Disney himself loved to adapt stuff to screen. BUT. He also loved to change things small or very large. His range of interests in legends and literature was broad indeed. If you glance at his film history you see quite a few are adaptions of some book or legend. Mostly books current or not so current at the time.
Right. But that's what I'm saying. Only a small fraction of material was adapted from centuries-old stories. It was never a central point for Disney - just one small slice.
Quote from: jhkim on May 29, 2021, 09:04:30 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on May 29, 2021, 12:36:06 PM
Frozen is Disney rewriting the classic myths of Kislev and its Ice Queen.
And as others noted, it bears little resemblance to the original. But likewise, while The Sword in the Stone has some resemblance to the E.B. White novel, it has extremely little in common with the original King Arthur legends. The Robin Hood feature with Sir Hiss and Lady Cluck has little to do with the original stories. The Little Mermaid has pretty massive differences from the original story as well, etc.
Basically, if as a parent one wants one's child to learn about centuries-old European myth, Disney films are only a minor source at best. There's only a handful of films that do so, and vary from major to unrecognizable in their differences. In some sense, _Into the Woods_ and _Shrek_ are as good an introduction to the stories.
Quote from: Omega on May 29, 2021, 11:57:30 AM
Theres more than that if you include live action and any shorts.
Scarecrow of Romny Marsh, Paul Bunyan, Pecos Bill, and a few others have likely forgotten.
More apt is Disney himself loved to adapt stuff to screen. BUT. He also loved to change things small or very large. His range of interests in legends and literature was broad indeed. If you glance at his film history you see quite a few are adaptions of some book or legend. Mostly books current or not so current at the time.
Right. But that's what I'm saying. Only a small fraction of material was adapted from centuries-old stories. It was never a central point for Disney - just one small slice.
I would explain the difference between "plot" and "theme" to you, but why bother?
Quote from: jhkim on May 29, 2021, 09:04:30 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on May 29, 2021, 12:36:06 PM
Frozen is Disney rewriting the classic myths of Kislev and its Ice Queen.
And as others noted, it bears little resemblance to the original.
Sorry, I was using Shasarak's sarcastic black font. Kislev and its Ice Queen is from WFRP.