Every time I look at a game and I see ancestry instead of race or species, I just go "nope". Luckily I can see this on most PDF previews in the table of contents and avoid the product.
I'm sure it's some rules for some, what makes you just pass on a game? Can be as superficial as you want, like cover art.
Art that obviously goes out of its way to exclude straight white male characters. I don't mind diversity. But diversity does not mean "no white guys", no matter what some leftist loons may think.
A kitchen sink approach to character creation - you have to use polyhedral dice, playing cards, and tarot cards all at the same time and then never use them again makes me pass.
Gimmick dice - if you need to buy a special set of dice just to play the game, I'll pass (looking at you, FFG Star Wars).
Weird dice mechanics - Alternity is the best example of this. That chart where you had to compare two different dice combos always made my eyeballs ache.
Some good examples already posted. I'll add increasingly obscure replacement names for the gamemaster (rabblerouser, referee, MC, etc). I'm ok with some alternate names (like narrator, story teller, or director for those dirty hippies who play story games!) but not the more recent crop that are done for ideological reasons in recent years.
Quote from: RNGm on January 03, 2025, 06:39:49 PMSome good examples already posted. I'll add increasingly obscure replacement names for the gamemaster (rabblerouser, referee, MC, etc). I'm ok with some alternate names (like narrator, story teller, or director for those dirty hippies who play story games!) but not the more recent crop that are done for ideological reasons in recent years.
I can deal with referee and storyteller only because they've been around for a long time but your point is a good one. Gamemaster works well and isn't copyrighted. I'd say referee is a good one. Storyteller should only be in games like Vampire. The rest should just go.
Plus you got people trying to remove the word master, so that's an issue all on it's own.
comics
Worldbuilding which doesn't get the fact this is a roleplaying game and not a novel.
RPGs have this weird paradox that they can be both massively overbuilt and completely bland at the same time. A good RPG setting should naturally leave space for player creativity while producing campaigns which don't make a ton of sense in other RPG settings. A lot of RPGs feel like they're deliberately trying to produce bland campaigns, or perhaps optimistically, to run a campaign in a particular IP which you don't have the license for, so your setting has the serial numbers filed off.
Quote from: brettmb on January 03, 2025, 07:16:41 PMcomics
White Wolf! I think Vampire TM was the only core book I had from them that did not have a comic in there somewhere.
I will though give a pass to the comics that actually explain the rules as it goes. Those were VERY rare with WW books.
WW is I think the only publisher I can recall that had comics in the books.
TMNT gets a pass because it is based on a comic. And think there was only like one in the whole series of books. I'd have to dig out the set. Think was Road Hogs.
Would a super hero game be exempt from this? lol
Quote from: brettmb on January 03, 2025, 07:16:41 PMcomics
AD&D had a few comics, if I'm understanding your meaning of comics correctly.
Quote from: Dark on January 03, 2025, 06:54:52 PMQuote from: RNGm on January 03, 2025, 06:39:49 PMSome good examples already posted. I'll add increasingly obscure replacement names for the gamemaster (rabblerouser, referee, MC, etc). I'm ok with some alternate names (like narrator, story teller, or director for those dirty hippies who play story games!) but not the more recent crop that are done for ideological reasons in recent years.
I can deal with referee and storyteller only because they've been around for a long time but your point is a good one. Gamemaster works well and isn't copyrighted. I'd say referee is a good one. Storyteller should only be in games like Vampire. The rest should just go.
Plus you got people trying to remove the word master, so that's an issue all on it's own.
Yeah, like I said, some other options get grandfathered in but it's more the recent post-2016 crop of games (whether completely new or new editions) that I'm more on the lookout for that immediately. If I see obscure replacements for terms player character race and gamemaster, I'm already primed to look for the final nails in the coffin like trigger warnings for common fantasy/scifi elements, ideological purity tests for customers, etc.
One thing i think is particular to me that ive seen a few times is if goblins are a player race and elves are not i tend to put it down. Im also wary if dwarves are there but not elves, but ill at least read further.
Character sheet with a "Pronouns" field. A litmus test.
Quote from: Slambo on January 03, 2025, 09:13:42 PMOne thing i think is particular to me that ive seen a few times is if goblins are a player race and elves are not i tend to put it down. Im also wary if dwarves are there but not elves, but ill at least read further.
What game would have dwarves without elves or goblins without the other two? That's odd.
Goblins becoming popular races is mostly Pathfinders fault in my opinion. Runelords and arguing over killing baby goblins started it. If you're going to have a slightly less threatening monster race, at least use kobolds.
Quote from: Dark on January 03, 2025, 07:37:36 PMWould a super hero game be exempt from this? lol
I have a few superhero RPGs and nearly none have comics in them.
WW is pretty much the only company to feature them so extensively.
Quote from: Ruprecht on January 03, 2025, 07:38:18 PMQuote from: brettmb on January 03, 2025, 07:16:41 PMcomics
AD&D had a few comics, if I'm understanding your meaning of comics correctly.
It had cartoon art interspersed. AD&D never had actual comic book pages in the books that I can recall.
Quote from: Slambo on January 03, 2025, 09:13:42 PMOne thing i think is particular to me that ive seen a few times is if goblins are a player race and elves are not i tend to put it down. Im also wary if dwarves are there but not elves, but ill at least read further.
Shadow of the Demon Lord initially had both dwarves and goblin PCs but not elf PCs. When they later added elf PC rules, they were fey and really fucking non-human. Trust me, not having elves in the core book did not hurt this game.
One thing that I'll drop a game for in a hot minute is the "rotating GM" trick that Shadowrun Anarchy and Mechwarrior Destiny go with. Sure, they give you an option to not use it (at least in MWD), but the base game is built to support a very weird table dynamic.
Quote from: Dark on January 03, 2025, 09:41:42 PMQuote from: Slambo on January 03, 2025, 09:13:42 PMOne thing i think is particular to me that ive seen a few times is if goblins are a player race and elves are not i tend to put it down. Im also wary if dwarves are there but not elves, but ill at least read further.
What game would have dwarves without elves or goblins without the other two? That's odd.
Goblins becoming popular races is mostly Pathfinders fault in my opinion. Runelords and arguing over killing baby goblins started it. If you're going to have a slightly less threatening monster race, at least use kobolds.
Iirc Synbaroum had dwarves and goblins but no elves and same with shadow of the demon lord. I dont know one with goblins but no Dwarves
Quote from: HappyDaze on January 03, 2025, 11:06:34 PMQuote from: Slambo on January 03, 2025, 09:13:42 PMOne thing i think is particular to me that ive seen a few times is if goblins are a player race and elves are not i tend to put it down. Im also wary if dwarves are there but not elves, but ill at least read further.
Shadow of the Demon Lord initially had both dwarves and goblin PCs but not elf PCs. When they later added elf PC rules, they were fey and really fucking non-human. Trust me, not having elves in the core book did not hurt this game.
I didn't really like what i ready of it, but i didnt finish reading it. Its just a descision i don't like, especially with Goblins. I don't like goblins. I don't like Kobolds either, but that's mostly due to 5e and Pathfinder players specifically.
Proprietary Dice, or other equivalent "if I lose it, only this company can replace it" game resolution tools.
This will probably seem like a weird one, but if defending yourself from an attack uses up your action for that turn, I write off the system. If it just uses a reaction I still don't love it, but it can work in some games. I also strongly dislike any system where to-hit difficulty is independent of what you're actually trying to hit, though that one's not always an automatic disqualifier for me.
Special Dice can be a no-no for me, depending. If I can use a regular die but the special ones that come with it just make it easier to read, I'll take a look.
I haven't run into pronouns, but that would very likely make me pass.
I struggle with I guess Pundit would call them "Story games". They just don't make sense with my head and the rules explanations on games are terrible anymore.
One thing I do like is a solid example of play that shows off the mechanics. The James Bond RPG had a really good one that showed how it worked.
Convoluted dice mechanics.
Why? Novel ways to interpret dice rolls don't make it more fun.
Special dice or any special table top counters (3rd Edition Warhammer being an extreme example)
Complex and crunchy mechanics that require massive time and energy to learn and slow the game down. This is the main reason I left Warhammer 4th Edition and why I would never play a game like Pathfinder or 3.5
Personal taste - but I don't like a Tolkeinesque game (that version of elves, dwarfs, halflings).
A game that appears to take the 20th or 21st century social/ political world and reskin it with a Hollywood version of olde worlde. For me that breaks immersion. Some D&D products do this and the more crude versions of it put me off.
Bad AI art. And artwork that depicts player characters as sparkly students from a US campus in Hollywood costume. I prefer art which is darker, grittier and where the characters look lived in. I love the art of Alien RPG, Baptism of Fire, and some of the art of Warhammer 4th Edition (which varies). It's not a dealbreaker though. I'm not against playing a game with bad art that's really good. I'm just a lot less likely look at it in the first place.
I hate boilerplate apologism. Don't tell me about how your game won't do this or that or how it upholds something. Totally unnecessary. Tell me why your game is. Tell me what your game does. It's rules not values. I'll inject my own goddamn values, thank you very much.
Also a character sheet. Best have one of those in the book. It's one of the basic blueprints of your game and if you don't have one it suggests your game probably isn't fully cooked.
Aside the fact I nearly only like Low/Dark/Rustic Fantasy and Sword and Sorcery settings, excluding most of other games (with exceptions fortunately), I'd say:
- Intrusive lecturing of the consumer or obvious signalings (like pronouns, no human white males in the artworks, etc).
- Childish tendency to depreciate usual figures instead of being creative ("hey you see typical goblins? they are actually smart and friendly" "hey, you see typical hobbits? they are actually drunkards beating their children at night).
- Anti-consumers behaviors from the creators (may be bad Kickstarting practices, disdain for feedbacks, etc)
- Describing and illustrating a medfan world with 19th-21st references (typically a supposedly "medieval-ish" inn illustrated as a cosy 19th-ish/victorian-ish tearoom).
- Typical Northern American artworks (Marvel-ish / overload / ultra-clean / ultra-bright-smiles characters, etc)
- Gears artworks too obviously lacking functional credibility (like, how could this armor credibly protect its wearer or even being practical on the battlefield?!).
- Special / too numerous dice.
- Necessary gadgets aside books and character sheets (like necessary cards, tokens, again special dice, etc)
- Games where characters are basically super-heroes.
- Games with no clear artworks / aesthetic direction and borders, where you can be and see anything and it just ends-up looking like a ridiculous/creepy circus.
Ofc these points are not absolutely prohibitive by themselves, and I can "tolerate" some negative points in a game if they are very moderately intrusive and if I like it as a whole. But yeah, at the bottom line, DD5 is the perfect example of what I don't want to see.
Quote from: Omega on January 03, 2025, 07:30:16 PMTMNT gets a pass because it is based on a comic. And think there was only like one in the whole series of books. I'd have to dig out the set. Think was Road Hogs.
The main book has a Halloween comic, Guide to the Universe has one with the TCRI aliens/Utroms and a triceraton, Transdimensional TMNT has an excerpt from a comic but it's directly related to the Kirby artifact, nothing in Truckin' Turtles, Hollywood, or Road Hogs. So the first two books basically have some padding/filler, but they're actually interesting to read and provide an extremely good example of how you might want to play the game, honestly.
To answer the actual topic of the thread, as soon as I see some fucked up art that has no bearing on how the game presents itself, I instantly lose interest. The worst recent offender I can remember is The Hero's Journey 2nd edition. I was insanely disappointed by so many things with this game (that I kickstarted for the top tier), but some of the art...undermined the entire premise in my view. Just bad.
There are a few things which turn me off to any TTRPG:
1. Entirely self-referential and unique campaign worlds and settings. If I have to read 300 pages on your new made-up world with wizards and aliens, and that world has no real-world, historical analogy, I will get frustrated. The best things TSR ever produced were the Gazetteers, which created settings based on real-world historical example (Thyatis=Byzantium, Emirates of Ylaruam=early Islamic caliphates, etc.).
2. Lengthy and complex character creation. I should be able to roll up a PC within 20-30 minutes tops, and if it goes beyond that, it is evidence that the rest of the game will be a complicated mess.
3. Game designers and authors who are openly hostile and dismissive towards their would-be customers. Not simply making some political or ideological statements here and there, but sanctimonious, condescending behavior, spreading misinformation, and acting like a complete fool (Jeff Dee, Chris Pramas, Cam Banks, etc.) --if you hate me, I'm not going to buy your products. I won't even discuss them.
4. Games that have ideology injected directly into them. Stuff like pronouns on character sheets, chapters on LGBT representation, colonialism, etc. --again, I am playing a game, not attending a lecture on your pet political theories and agendas. And it doesn't have to be left-wing stuff--I wouldn't want to see a bunch of neocon propaganda in a game either.
5. Games that are long on presentation and gingerbread vs. actual good content.
Quote from: jeff37923 on January 03, 2025, 06:14:16 PMA kitchen sink approach to character creation - you have to use polyhedral dice, playing cards, and tarot cards all at the same time and then never use them again makes me pass.
Gimmick dice - if you need to buy a special set of dice just to play the game, I'll pass (looking at you, FFG Star Wars).
Weird dice mechanics - Alternity is the best example of this. That chart where you had to compare two different dice combos always made my eyeballs ache.
I recently visited my local game store and noticed the
Genesys products on the shelf collecting dust. The store manager told me EDGE's prerogative seems to be directing everyone towards their app instead of actually providing the physical resources needed to play their game. Now to be fair, they inherited Fantasy Flight's poor decision, but at this point the studio would be better off starting over.
Oh i forgot something else that makes me bounce off games which is really bad copy editing. I can stomach a few typos or some grammar, but things like refering to rules that don't exist and refering to the wrong page numbers, etc.
What will make me close the damned thing instantly:
- Female superheroes on every page while at the same time all white males are 2 foot gnomes with evil smiles (Sounds like Paizo?)
- Extreme sexualization of every female in the book while all white men are either fat, ugly, evil, etc
- Stupid safety marxist rules and social contracts what? Paizo went dumb with this. TTRPG's have always been safe, these morons are just peddling their marxist crap on us. Throw an X in the air they say, who ya'll talking too? 2 year olds?
- Overly balanced characters, because you know, everyone has to be a winner these days!
- Political agendas
- F your pronouns
- Pink everywhere
- Overly satanic with symbols and rituals and effin gore everywhere
- Cartoony smiley little designs and characters everywhere as if the art was made and approved by 4 year olds or maybe perhaps perverts?
- Virtue calling overabundance of gays, lesbos, trannies, white females, black and arabic characters on every page, not a racist but why can't things be balanced instead of overdone?
- Lesbo, gay and trannie relationships every 10 pages, a lot of emphasis for 1-2% of the population
What will make me buy the damned thing instantly:
- Balanced male/female and racial characters but also depending on which region the story is taking place in. If it's medievil Europe make it more white, if it's Africa more black characters, if it's the Middle East more Arab characters, Asia for Asians etc...If it's North America use the right demographics as well.
- 95% or more of the characters should be straight, I'm not buying into your circus if it's otherwise.
- Races and Ancestry, this I don't mind, I actually prefer Ancestry...
- Worlds that are colorful but at the same time a little grim.
- Storytelling and world building are great
- A lot of character options but not to the point where it's used for stupidities.
- A lot of different monsters and locations
Things that will make me stop looking at a RPG:
1) Only available in .pdf. If there is not a print option I have no interest in the game.
2) Games with built in safety tools or games that suggest using them.
- Art (or layout choices) I find off-putting. (That's not necessarily "bad art," but rather art that signals to me "this game isn't for you.")
- Any suggestion of a sociopolitical agenda/message.
1. Tiny text.
2. Dark text over dark fluff.
3. Seeing fiction before I see character generation.
4. Half the book is the author's novel, whether it's before character generation or after it.
Quote from: capvideo on January 04, 2025, 12:22:16 PM1. Tiny text.
2. Dark text over dark fluff.
3. Seeing fiction before I see character generation.
4. Half the book is the author's novel, whether it's before character generation or after it.
Oh yeah text over art is another one i hate. I also dont like putting the lore in the front of the book. I do make a small exception for liscened games but those have their own problem.
One thing? That's simple. Any game material that indicates that they, the publisher/writer/whatever, are putting conditions on how I use their game or who can play it.
Quote from: capvideo on January 04, 2025, 12:22:16 PM3. Seeing fiction before I see character generation.
I prefer the other way around, though it's not a deal killer. If I'm using the book for the first time I want it to tell me what the game's about first so I know what kind of character to make. Short fiction is a good way to do this. If it gets too long I can always skip ahead.
1) Woke
2) Dungeon crawl focus - been there done that
3) Lack of focus
a) I like mechanics that are designed for and support the theme of the game
b) I don't like kitchen sink games
Quote from: Mishihari on January 04, 2025, 01:44:53 PMIf I'm using the book for the first time I want it to tell me what the game's about first so I know what kind of character to make. Short fiction is a good way to do this.
In theory, this ought to work, but in practice I don't think there's ever been a game that preloads with multipage fiction that turned out to be a game I wanted to play.
I suspect that for a game, seeing the rules first and then seeing how it's supposed to be played (which is not technically fiction—it's people playing the game) is a better way to show what the game's about while also helping the reader grok the rules.
Quote from: Slambo on January 03, 2025, 11:39:45 PMIirc Synbaroum had dwarves and goblins but no elves and same with shadow of the demon lord. I dont know one with goblins but no Dwarves
Symbaroum definitely has elves though in the core book they're antagonists and not techically playable (with the caveat of changelings being a sort of elf which is playable). They're also on the covers of the second and third core books (the advanced players guide and monster codex) where they are fully fleshed out player options if the GM chooses to use them.
Quote from: HappyDaze on January 03, 2025, 11:08:35 PMOne thing that I'll drop a game for in a hot minute is the "rotating GM" trick that Shadowrun Anarchy and Mechwarrior Destiny go with. Sure, they give you an option to not use it (at least in MWD), but the base game is built to support a very weird table dynamic.
Yeah, I ended up skipping that rotating GM thing in my multiple (admittedly short) Shadowrun Anarchy campaigns. I didn't feel that it added anything other than uncomfortable uncertainty and none of us (both me as GM and all the players) had any experience with "narrative" style games so I figured dipping the toes into the story game pool was probably the better first step than jumping in that swamp.
Quote from: RNGm on January 04, 2025, 03:24:44 PMQuote from: HappyDaze on January 03, 2025, 11:08:35 PMOne thing that I'll drop a game for in a hot minute is the "rotating GM" trick that Shadowrun Anarchy and Mechwarrior Destiny go with. Sure, they give you an option to not use it (at least in MWD), but the base game is built to support a very weird table dynamic.
Yeah, I ended up skipping that rotating GM thing in my multiple (admittedly) short Shadowrun Anarchy campaigns. I didn't feel that it added anything other than uncomfortable uncertainty and none of use (both me as GM and all the players) had any experience with "narrative" style games so I figured dipping the toes into the story game pool was probably the better first step.
I was introduced to rotating GM (or "troupe style") games in the 1980s with Ars Magica. I had fun with a handful of troupe-style campaigns, though I haven't done one in over a decade. I found Ars Magica is built around rotating PCs because of the magus/companion/grog balance, but the rotating-GM was easy to remove. Also, it was easy to add rotating-GM to other games.
I'm not familiar with Shadowrun Anarchy or Mechwarrior Destiny. Is there anything mechanically in those games that is tied to rotating GM?
Quote from: jhkim on January 04, 2025, 04:14:15 PMI'm not familiar with Shadowrun Anarchy or Mechwarrior Destiny. Is there anything mechanically in those games that is tied to rotating GM?
Standard story game trope stuff (admittedly from my viewpoint as someone whose only "story game" was the watered down version of SRA I posted above) but the GM handles the NPC metacurrency and enemy actions/rolls from what I remember. I just didn't see the benefit in having someone able to negate or minimize the actions of the other players potentially (both as players and in their roles as GM in that session) just to suit their own views on how the story should progress. I haven't played with a ton of very selfish attention hogs or anything (though there have been a few and arguably I was one potentially in one campaign) but I just don't have that level of trust in the mainly strangers I play with whether in person or online. YMMV.
From the rulebook:
QuoteDuring another player's Narration, the GM's main re-
sponsibilities are as follows:
• Deciding whether an action requires the player
roll a Test
• Declaring what modifiers (if any) apply to a Test
• Determining what Attribute(s) applies to an
Attribute-only Test
• Roleplaying NPCs
• Making defense rolls for NPCs
• Knowing the information in the Contract Brief
• Arbitrating rules discussions
• Declaring that a player's Narration is finished
(such as if a Narration has lasted for too long)
Any kind of trigger warning or sensitivity drivel in the intro. Also, I can generally tell from looking at the character sheet if I'll like the game. If it's got too much crap crammed into it, is more than two pages/sides in length, or has a space for pronouns or "identity" beyond male/female, I'll generally skip it.
Readability is critical. Tiny text, text over busy backgrounds, awful fonts, awkward artistic layouts, garish colors are all big negatives for me.
White print on black pages...
- OR -
Overly artsy-farty flourishes in the margins of the pages and the choice of the font used.
Just legible black text print on white pages please.
- Ed C.
Quote from: easywolf32 on January 04, 2025, 11:52:54 AM- Extreme sexualization of every female in the book while all white men are either fat, ugly, evil, etc
Have you seen a book like that? The culture wars being what they are, usually people in the "white man bad" camp are also in the "defeat the male gaze" camp.
Pronouns for characters and "SaFeTy ToOlS" make it a no go for me. Rule of thumb is if it has those it likely replaced race with some other nonsense as well.
The word problematic
BLK/YT for black/white people
bonus point if it's followed by ppl
Capitalized Queer
Bonus point if the author feels the need to tell me how Queer they are
Marginalized people/identities
Bonus point of the author feels the need to tell me about how marginalized they are.
BIPOC
bonus point if the author feels the need to tell me how BIPOC they are
Anticolonial/decolonized
Lecture on how I have to play the game
bonus point if there are different rules for different groups
bonus point if "because marginalized"
Space for pronouns on the character sheet
bonus point for sample character that uses they/them pronouns
bonus point for "because inclusivity"
Purity test in the book. 10 points
Trigger warning
bonus point if it's in a horror game
Any modern urban/graffiti font
White text on a dark background
bonus point if the background is an image
Text going every which way
Art project masquerading as an rpg/Mork Borging
No index
bonus point of the book is 300+ pages long
The first thing in the book is lengthy in-game fiction
bonus point if it's bad
Safety tools
bonus point if there's a lecture on how Important they are
Such diversity, So Representation in the art
bonus point if it makes no sense for the setting
Playing card resolution mechanics in a Western game. I am so sick of this.
The suffix punk attached to whatever random word. Hermitpunk
Capitalism bad
bonus point if the phrase late-stage capitalism is used.
Quote from: yosemitemike on January 05, 2025, 03:36:29 AMHermitpunk
Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater here, tell me more about this hermitpunk.
Quote from: Bubu on January 05, 2025, 04:29:15 AMLet's not throw the baby out with the bathwater here, tell me more about this hermitpunk.
Somewhere in the giant pile of crap that is itch .io is a game that calls itself a hermitpunk game alongside stuff like Punk Ass Sorcerers Fighting The Man Who Is Just Being Kind of a Dick To Them, Like Personally which is an actual title.
manga, AI-generated illustration, sex, violence is encouraged, superhero (but not the past I liked !)
Quote from: yosemitemike on January 05, 2025, 03:36:29 AMThe word problematic
BLK/YT for black/white people
bonus point if it's followed by ppl
Capitalized Queer
Bonus point if the author feels the need to tell me how Queer they are
Marginalized people/identities
Bonus point of the author feels the need to tell me about how marginalized they are.
BIPOC
bonus point if the author feels the need to tell me how BIPOC they are
Anticolonial/decolonized
Lecture on how I have to play the game
bonus point if there are different rules for different groups
bonus point if "because marginalized"
Space for pronouns on the character sheet
bonus point for sample character that uses they/them pronouns
bonus point for "because inclusivity"
Purity test in the book. 10 points
Trigger warning
bonus point if it's in a horror game
Any modern urban/graffiti font
White text on a dark background
bonus point if the background is an image
Text going every which way
Art project masquerading as an rpg/Mork Borging
No index
bonus point of the book is 300+ pages long
The first thing in the book is lengthy in-game fiction
bonus point if it's bad
Safety tools
bonus point if there's a lecture on how Important they are
Such diversity, So Representation in the art
bonus point if it makes no sense for the setting
Playing card resolution mechanics in a Western game. I am so sick of this.
The suffix punk attached to whatever random word. Hermitpunk
Capitalism bad
bonus point if the phrase late-stage capitalism is used.
Greetings!
Excellent listing and assessment, yosemitemike! I agree entirely.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: yosemitemike on January 05, 2025, 05:06:53 AMSomewhere in the giant pile of crap that is itch .io is a game that calls itself a hermitpunk game alongside stuff like Punk Ass Sorcerers Fighting The Man Who Is Just Being Kind of a Dick To Them, Like Personally which is an actual title.
*rolls up sleeves and grimly makes his way to itch*
Quote from: Bubu on January 05, 2025, 11:43:29 PM*rolls up sleeves and grimly makes his way to itch*
I wish you luck.
Quote from: yosemitemike on January 05, 2025, 03:36:29 AMTrigger warning
bonus point if it's in a horror game
I see this more often than not anymore... Makes me want to crawl into a hole and die. In horror, they'd be better off just titling their list of warnings as "Features"!
DEI bullshit. IMO, all of the bandwagon game companies who incorporate this stupidity in their products will show their age real quick. The DEI trend is already dying a slow death.
Quote from: ForgottenF on January 04, 2025, 12:50:55 AMThis will probably seem like a weird one, but if defending yourself from an attack uses up your action for that turn, I write off the system. If it just uses a reaction I still don't love it, but it can work in some games. I also strongly dislike any system where to-hit difficulty is independent of what you're actually trying to hit, though that one's not always an automatic disqualifier for me.
I feel like I have played one such game. But was so long ago I no longer remember what it was.
Quote from: Omega on January 06, 2025, 10:54:12 PMQuote from: ForgottenF on January 04, 2025, 12:50:55 AMThis will probably seem like a weird one, but if defending yourself from an attack uses up your action for that turn, I write off the system. If it just uses a reaction I still don't love it, but it can work in some games. I also strongly dislike any system where to-hit difficulty is independent of what you're actually trying to hit, though that one's not always an automatic disqualifier for me.
I feel like I have played one such game. But was so long ago I no longer remember what it was.
Dragonbane works like that, unless I've misread the rules. I've seen it in some other games as well, but I can't recall names now. Several games have it that you can't defend yourself from more than one attack per round without a special talent or piece of equipment.
Quote from: ForgottenF on January 06, 2025, 11:45:53 PMQuote from: Omega on January 06, 2025, 10:54:12 PMQuote from: ForgottenF on January 04, 2025, 12:50:55 AMThis will probably seem like a weird one, but if defending yourself from an attack uses up your action for that turn, I write off the system. If it just uses a reaction I still don't love it, but it can work in some games. I also strongly dislike any system where to-hit difficulty is independent of what you're actually trying to hit, though that one's not always an automatic disqualifier for me.
I feel like I have played one such game. But was so long ago I no longer remember what it was.
Dragonbane works like that, unless I've misread the rules. I've seen it in some other games as well, but I can't recall names now. Several games have it that you can't defend yourself from more than one attack per round without a special talent or piece of equipment.
Most of the RuneQuest family work this way. Armor absorbs damage so it doesn't make you harder to hit. And at least in Mongoose RuneQuest you have a number of actions based on your attributes, you can make them attack or defense depending upon your whim each round (if protected by good armor using them for attack makes sense!). OpenQuest gives you one attack and one defense action so being outnumbered can get hairy. I actually like the way all of that works.
Quote from: ElifeLau on January 05, 2025, 04:34:50 PMmanga, AI-generated illustration, sex, violence is encouraged, superhero (but not the past I liked !)
I see all of that as selling points. Got a game to recommend?
Hell, I'll disqualify a game if there are too many grammar mistakes.
Quote from: Omega on January 06, 2025, 10:54:12 PMQuote from: ForgottenF on January 04, 2025, 12:50:55 AMThis will probably seem like a weird one, but if defending yourself from an attack uses up your action for that turn, I write off the system. If it just uses a reaction I still don't love it, but it can work in some games. I also strongly dislike any system where to-hit difficulty is independent of what you're actually trying to hit, though that one's not always an automatic disqualifier for me.
I feel like I have played one such game. But was so long ago I no longer remember what it was.
Palladium sort of does this.
In melee combat you can Parry as much as you want, but dodging counts as your next action.
Star Wars D6 has a skill penalty for any action beyond one per turn. So, if you shoot your pistol twice, and dodge so you can try and avoid any incoming shots at you, your going to make all three skill checks at minus two dice from your dice pool (-2D6). If you want to retroactively dodge after the turn has started, you can, but it counts double, aka -2D6 instead of the normal -1D6.
If I think they are actively hostile to me as a straight white guy who voted Reform. Passive hostility may be tolerable depending on genre, eg I ran Cyberpunk Red as it's very low key in the core book, it's the supplements that go all ACAB, BLM etc.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 07, 2025, 10:06:24 AMHell, I'll disqualify a game if there are too many grammar mistakes.
I can see you will never play Castles & Crusades, then.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 07, 2025, 10:04:59 AMQuote from: ElifeLau on January 05, 2025, 04:34:50 PMmanga, AI-generated illustration, sex, violence is encouraged, superhero (but not the past I liked !)
I see all of that as selling points. Got a game to recommend?
With all of them in one, i'm not sure. For the moment...
1. In-Universe fiction if it's terribly long or peppered throughout a book tends to bother me, because it's wasted page count in my opinion.
2. Moralizing of any sort, left or right, or any assertion of politics tend to bother me, this is because I take the tolkien view of sub-creation, allegory is a fraud, a world exists in it's own contexts and confines and thus anything which breaks this immersion should be scorned.
3. Degeneracy, or systems that tend to glorify playing evil characters or have some sort of grey morality scale I don't care for, this isn't to say I dislike spaghetti westerns or amoral characters, but they don't have any impact when placed in a setting where everyone is an amoral douchbag.
Quote from: ForgottenF on January 06, 2025, 11:45:53 PMQuote from: Omega on January 06, 2025, 10:54:12 PMQuote from: ForgottenF on January 04, 2025, 12:50:55 AMThis will probably seem like a weird one, but if defending yourself from an attack uses up your action for that turn, I write off the system. If it just uses a reaction I still don't love it, but it can work in some games. I also strongly dislike any system where to-hit difficulty is independent of what you're actually trying to hit, though that one's not always an automatic disqualifier for me.
I feel like I have played one such game. But was so long ago I no longer remember what it was.
Several games have it that you can't defend yourself from more than one attack per round without a special talent or piece of equipment.
That I have seen a few times as well.
Quote from: capvideo on January 04, 2025, 12:22:16 PM1. Tiny text.
2. Dark text over dark fluff.
3. Seeing fiction before I see character generation.
4. Half the book is the author's novel, whether it's before character generation or after it.
1: RuinsWorld's rulebook was printed in really tiny font. Not the smallest ever seen. But its damn small.
2: White Wolf's "gamma world" book. Every other chapter was dark text on grey backing with BLACK speckling!!! argh!
3: Pretty much every core book White Wolf ever put out.
4: White Wolf again. Not quite half the books but usually upwards of a third of every core book was prose. Aberrant was the worst I recall for that. Great Superhero RPG. But I bought an RPG, not someones disjointed lite-novel/comic/anthology/whatever.
This is shallow, I know, but if I can't glean an idea of how the system works during a first or second flip-thru, I'm out.
If a rules set is too wordy before getting to the point, I'm out.
I do not having a great example, but have seeing several books with very "cute" art (such as BreakRPG) which I finding very boring and uninteresting. Art is being very important to me and bad art will having me put a book down.
Quote from: Brad on January 07, 2025, 04:34:22 PMI can see you will never play Castles & Crusades, then.
So, apparently the new KS books have a misspelling on the back cover or something..?
If I stopped reading an RPG based on grammar mistakes I'd never be in this hobby. My wife is *brutal* on any RPG book she picks up of mine (she is a professional editor and five-time recipient of Der Sturmkuli as Kommander of the Grammar Nazis).
I generally drop an RPG that lacks consistency in how it presents its setting - i.e. doesn't understand its own genre. Or it doesn't take itself seriously because it's pretending to be something else. But the thing that will kill it for me is if the system is dogshit and doesn't support the conceits of the setting in any novel or sufficient manner.
Quote from: tenbones on January 16, 2025, 12:49:14 PMIf I stopped reading an RPG based on grammar mistakes I'd never be in this hobby. My wife is *brutal* on any RPG book she picks up of mine (she is a professional editor and five-time recipient of Der Sturmkuli as Kommander of the Grammar Nazis).
I generally drop an RPG that lacks consistency in how it presents its setting - i.e. doesn't understand its own genre. Or it doesn't take itself seriously because it's pretending to be something else. But the thing that will kill it for me is if the system is dogshit and doesn't support the conceits of the setting in any novel or sufficient manner.
Does she take commissions for work? I'd keep her in mind to support a fellow member of the community.
Also, in the vein of this, yes, "everything" settings like Golarion are highly-unappealing to me. They come across as a weird patchwork of every potential theme thrown next to one another, because that's exactly what they are.
Dumb metacurrencies. Players shouldn't be able to warp the world by means outside the actions of their characters. Luck is permissible, fate points are not.
Story game resolution mechanics, like yes and, etc. Degrees of success are good, improv constructions are bad.
Fluffy power fantasies. I hate games where the rules are warped around the success of the PCs. Powerful characters able to destroy swaths of minions and only able to be challenged by enemies of similar stature are cool, games where the assumption is the characters succeed at everything they attempt are lame.
Quote from: Zenoguy3 on January 16, 2025, 01:19:34 PMDumb metacurrencies. Players shouldn't be able to warp the world by means outside the actions of their characters. Luck is permissible, fate points are not.
My first true RPG campaign experience was with FASA's Star Trek RPG and I'm a huge Star Trek fan, so I've always picked up material from other publishers (that pre-date FASA's iteration and those after like Last Unicorn, Decipher, and even Prime Directive).
I did the same for Modiphius' Star Trek Adventures, but the metacurrency system (Threat and Momentum) in it is half the game or more. It's even baked into species traits. I actually thought it had some good ideas on how to adress some problem areas I've had with Star Trek RPGs, but I can't stand the metacurrency and I think it's impossible to separate it. It's got great art, though (even if I did eventually sell all my books...).
If the PCs are kids (Tales from the Loop, Kids on Bikes, etc.) I'm out. I've already been a kid and, aside from the lack of responsibility, I have no need to go back to that world. Especially a bunch of precocious children acting like adults.
The pronouns on the character sheet are annoying, but I've seen some games that look like fun that have them, so I can ignore them and leave them blank.
If character creation is too complex. Some games may be worth it (I hear some people love Traveller but the character creation process was terrible in the book), but there's already a ton of games I'll never find the time or table to try.
Quote from: FASAfan on January 18, 2025, 11:34:10 PMModiphius
We'd all be better off in the hobby if this company did not exist. Pundit's thread about Eurogames vs. American ones applies to them in spades.
A large page count will do it for me these days. I don't have time.
- Games that insult whomever created the specific universe from which the developers are making money (HPL being a common target).
- "In our game there is no space for..."
- Forms about "Consent in Gaming". Just tell me.
- Games that start with short novels whose contents you can understand only AFTER reading the actual rules.
- Bonus point for the above if the font causes bleeding retinas.
Not ban-worthy but, by now, for sure depressive: "Games of make-believe are like when you played Cops and Robbers with your friends...!" JUST. FIND. A. NEW. EXAMPLE.
Quote from: RNGm on January 03, 2025, 06:39:49 PMSome good examples already posted. I'll add increasingly obscure replacement names for the gamemaster (rabblerouser, referee, MC, etc). I'm ok with some alternate names (like narrator, story teller, or director for those dirty hippies who play story games!) but not the more recent crop that are done for ideological reasons in recent years.
"Referee" is on p. 3 of Men & Magic, in the Foreword by Gygax, and used throughout OD&D. It's arguably the oldest "official" title for the game master. Even in the AD&D Dungeon Master's Guide, despite the title of the work, the Preface begins by addressing "the campaign referee", and switches freely between "referee" and "Dungeon Master" and "DM".
I'm fairly ignorant of more "ideological" terms for the DM (probably because I rarely buy new games). What are some examples?
1- Blatant anachronisms, elves with machine guns type stuff.
2- Gonzo, over the top themes and super hero abilities in a fantasy world.
3- Grim Dark. Don't want fluffy bunnies and candyland or a world where everything is negative and out to kill you.
4- Safety tools. If you don't like the game or the GM, find another or start your own.
5- complicated crunchy rules that take hours to learn and slow the game.
Games with wacky dice mechanics that exist only because the writer thought interpreting dice that way had never been done before. Like that was a good thing.
Just keep it simple. How hard is that to get?
Quote from: RNGm on January 03, 2025, 06:39:49 PMSome good examples already posted. I'll add increasingly obscure replacement names for the gamemaster (rabblerouser, referee, MC, etc). I'm ok with some alternate names (like narrator, story teller, or director for those dirty hippies who play story games!) but not the more recent crop that are done for ideological reasons in recent years.
I must admit, BladeRunner using the term "Game Runner" is kind of bad ass. But for the most part I agree.
Other non-starters for games, weird dice, variations of 5E, Obvious political leanings.
Quote from: Brad on January 25, 2025, 01:06:40 PMQuote from: FASAfan on January 18, 2025, 11:34:10 PMModiphius
We'd all be better off in the hobby if this company did not exist. Pundit's thread about Eurogames vs. American ones applies to them in spades.
I guess that is my issue with them, the Eurogame maybe? I like the art style and the couple of books of theirs I have (Fallout, Conan, and Mutant Chronicles) are well written and the rules are clear...but something about the rules just...do not like it.
It wouldn't outright stop me from purchasing a product, but consistent experiences of rude, standoffish players causes me to take a little pause. This is a small reason why I never got into Pathfinder.
I've only ever played Pathfinder with my friends, so that hasn't been a problem. If you're gaming with Internet randos, that's probably more the problem of them than the game system, but I get you - I'm ultra hesitant to game with strangers.
Quote from: jeff37923 on January 03, 2025, 06:14:16 PMA kitchen sink approach to character creation - you have to use polyhedral dice, playing cards, and tarot cards all at the same time and then never use them again makes me pass.
Gimmick dice - if you need to buy a special set of dice just to play the game, I'll pass (looking at you, FFG Star Wars).
Weird dice mechanics - Alternity is the best example of this. That chart where you had to compare two different dice combos always made my eyeballs ache.
Oof I hear that about gimmick dice, If you can't be bothered to make your system work with the universal standard array of dice, you've lost my interest almost immediately.
Quote from: Omega on January 03, 2025, 10:22:00 PMQuote from: Dark on January 03, 2025, 07:37:36 PMWould a super hero game be exempt from this? lol
I have a few superhero RPGs and nearly none have comics in them.
WW is pretty much the only company to feature them so extensively.
The original Champions (1981), Marvel Superheroes (1984), and Heroes Unlimited (1984) all had comics in them - as in a collection of comic panels read together.
Champions had a half-page as the example of play. MSH had a number of explanatory comics, starting with an opening one-page comic as its introduction. Heroes Unlimited had a background comic, as I recall. Here's the MSH opening page:
(https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/marvel/img/msh-opening.jpg)
I always liked the concept of comics as explainers, as it's kind of cute, but I think a more standard flow chart or game mechanic explainer works far better.
While not always a full indication, judging a book by the character sheet is bound to be more insightful than by the cover.
Most of mine have been named already (proprietary dice, pronouns, safety tools), so I'll just add an oldie but goodie:
anal circumference table
Quote from: brettmb on January 03, 2025, 07:16:41 PMcomics
Even conan comics?
Surely you can make an exception for conan?
Quote from: Joey2k on February 01, 2025, 04:56:53 PMMost of mine have been named already (proprietary dice, pronouns, safety tools), so I'll just add an oldie but goodie:
anal circumference table
I know I'm going to regret asking this, but: What? Where and why?
Quote from: bardiclife on February 01, 2025, 05:56:23 PMQuote from: Joey2k on February 01, 2025, 04:56:53 PMMost of mine have been named already (proprietary dice, pronouns, safety tools), so I'll just add an oldie but goodie:
anal circumference table
I know I'm going to regret asking this, but: What? Where and why?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/F.A.T.A.L.
Tentacle Labyrinth is another one that mechanically makes so much sense but holy shit, nobody wants to role-play that in a group.
It's one thing if the game is based on a comic or superheroes, but unrelated is another story.
These days, too many quirky/custom physical bits is a turn off since sometimes I'll only back a project at the digital level or get it as part of a PDF bundle.
Quote from: D-ko on February 01, 2025, 03:35:28 PMWhile not always a full indication, judging a book by the character sheet is bound to be more insightful than by the cover.
My god yes. I just did the Character Creation Challenge for January using a different RPG each day. Some of the RPG character creation rules and associated sheets were so bad I know I'll never try to play them.
Quote from: Joey2k on February 01, 2025, 04:56:53 PMMost of mine have been named already (proprietary dice, pronouns, safety tools), so I'll just add an oldie but goodie:
anal circumference table
That's like the best table ever made for RPGs, what are you talking about?
Quote from: Ygaragyr Xyagyxa on February 01, 2025, 08:13:37 AMHas this really been done since the 90s?
Yes. Genesys is a popular example of a system that uses gimmick dice quite a lot.
Quote from: Joey2k on February 01, 2025, 04:56:53 PMMost of mine have been named already (proprietary dice, pronouns, safety tools), so I'll just add an oldie but goodie:
anal circumference table
I had forgotten about that one. Yep... instant no-buy right there.
Quote from: Crusader X on January 03, 2025, 05:55:37 PMArt that obviously goes out of its way to exclude straight white male characters. I don't mind diversity. But diversity does not mean "no white guys", no matter what some leftist loons may think.
It really depends on the setting. If it's in a jungle in Africa, I'd be off-put to see all Caucasians. Art should be sensible and match what is being portrayed. The famous backward shotgun shell glove in Starfinder is always good for a laugh.
(https://i.redd.it/t3ym5tusx3391.jpg)
Quote from: D-ko on February 03, 2025, 01:47:04 PMThe famous backward shotgun shell glove in Starfinder is always good for a laugh.
(https://i.redd.it/t3ym5tusx3391.jpg)
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