Quote from: Caesar SlaadIt's time for my daughter anecdote.

My daughter, when 7, expressed an interest in the game (having seen it played).

I started her with a 1st level rogue using the "all skills are maxed out" simplification to keep her from worrying about allocating skill ranks (something I know can be tedious.)

By the time the 2nd level came around, I intended on just upping all her ranks. But she quickly caught on to the "full" way to buy things, and insisted on being able to allocate all her ranks as she saw fit.

In short, I see bluster to the effect of "nobody can roleplay using D&D" or "D&D is too complicated for begginers" to be overstated bluster and wishful thinknig by those with different preferences.

So you did pretty much what I recommended.

Quote from: Caesar SlaadIn short, I see bluster to the effect of "nobody can roleplay using D&D" or "D&D is too complicated for begginers" to be overstated bluster and wishful thinknig by those with different preferences.

I quite agree. And this is one reason why I don't use D&D or some other D20 game to introduce new players. Well, that, and the fact that I don't much like D&D (taste issue, not quality).

As someone else said, my first choice is Primetime Adventures. Pretty much everybody understands TV, and most people have at least one show (past or present) that they enjoy. It's easy to explain, easy to relate to, easy to get into and get playing.

If someone, before or after playing in my group, would like to try something more along the lines of D&D, I'll point them off to one of the groups or clubs in town. Like Ceasar says, a 7 year old can easily pick it up, so they wouldn't really gain anything from learning it from me first.

Quote from: RPGPunditIf you have answered anything other than "D20" (though not necessarily D&D); you are doing a tremendous disservice to the person in question.
......................
I mean honestly, why would you want to introduce someone to "Roleplaying" with the hopes that they will become a regular and well-rounded participant in the hobby by presenting them with anything other than the single most popular, most played RPG system in the known universe?

I can tell you with absolute certainty that my friend Clive would never become a regular participant in the roleplaying hobby as it exists. He might be interested in the occasional game of something like Bacchanal, but the structural properties and subject matter of most roleplaying games would have him out the door in thirty seconds.

Then there's my friend Annabel, who scoffed sweetly at HeroQuest, but was highly impressed by Nicotine Girls – so impressed she's become a roleplaying proselyte. Or my dear wife, who would only play NG out of the games I had.

I could have tried them on D&D (if I owned it) and lost them. These are not people who are interested in the things D&D does. But they are my friends, and I'd like to play a game with them now and then. It would be doing myself a disservice to introduce them to a game I don't play, that they wouldn't enjoy, and that would turn them off roleplaying as an activity. I think that roleplaying is a broad and rich form of self-entertainment; the limits of which we have only begun to explore. I'd like them to see that too.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Pundidio, than are dreamt of in your d20.

Quote from: Dominus NoxI suppose if you want to game with giths and get them into it, you could use WoD games or maybe Wraethu.

O.o

o.O

Wait....what?

Quote from: Dominus Nox...or maybe Wraethu.

Huh. Yeah, that's what you said.

...I can't think of circumstances under which a) Your typical gamer has this on their shelf, b) Your typical non-gamer would want to play this, or c) Why in the name of Holy Damn-It Christmas you would decide to make this someone's first exposure to RPGs.

Unless I've fallen through the rabbit hole and there's some other game entirely which happens to have that name and doesn't involve flower-cocks.

Quote from: ColonelHardissonD&D has about as negative a connotation to non-gamers as comic books.

That would be the negative one he is talking about.  Even as the public eats up movies Spawned from comic books, they widely look down on the original medium and associate it with the worst kind of "lawncrapper" and basement dwellers.

Quote from: droogThere are more things in heaven and earth, Pundidio, than are dreamt of in your d20.

Highlighted because it needs to be.    Note droog I agree with the rest of what you said as well.

Quote from: RPGPunditIf you have answered anything other than "D20" (though not necessarily D&D); you are doing a tremendous disservice to the person in question.

Hardly, if someone is introduced using Call of Cthulhu, or Vampire, or PTA and they enjoy it then we're golden.

Quote from: RPGPunditYou also might very well be a Swine, depending on which game you mentioned.

Oink.

Quote from: RPGPunditI mean honestly, why would you want to introduce someone to "Roleplaying" with the hopes that they will become a regular and well-rounded participant in the hobby by presenting them with anything other than the single most popular, most played RPG system in the known universe?

I've nothing against it, but I don't play d20, why would I introduce someone with a game I don't know how to run?

Anyway, surely it depends on what they want.  If they want something with a particular tone or style then it's best to find something like that, not say "hey, that's cool, we can totally do Pride and Prejudice using DnD3.5.  For this game Mr Darcy is an elf, ok?"

Quote from: BalbinusI've nothing against it, but I don't play d20, why would I introduce someone with a game I don't know how to run?

Don't know how to run or don't want to run.    The goal of running games is to have fun.   This is something I think Pundit seems to miss.   If I introduce a new gamer (or gamers) to say Vampire and they enjoy it they are free to expand their game knowledge and learn D&D and D20.   Doesn't mean I have to teach it to them if it's not something I have interest in.

And Pundit's "Swine" comment is elitisim at it's worst and is why gamers get a bad name.

If I were a person who had never gamed but was interested in learning, walked into a game store and talked to Pundit to get more information about gaming and I was hit with his "elitist attitude" (Note: I am not calling people who play D20/D&D Elitist, I am mentioning Pundit because of his Swine Comment) I would turn and walk away.

This kind of elitist attitude needs to stop and needs to stop now.   We have a shrinking pool of gamers and we need to make gaming hobby worth getting into, not come across as a elitist cult.

Quote from: Geek MessiahAnd Pundit's "Swine" comment is elitisim at it's worst and is why gamers get a bad name.

It's his own special brand of "anti-elitism" elitism.

Quote from: Geek MessiahDon't know how to run or don't want to run.

Indeed, though I don't rule out the possibility of finding d20 games I might want to run, it just wouldn't be because they were d20.  I don't hate d20, but nor is it a selling point for me.

Quote from: NicephorusIt's his own special brand of "anti-elitism" elitism.

Regardless it's the wrong thing to do and gives gamers a bad name.  It's also why he has been banned from almost all of the other game forums.

I am not sure what pendit gets from calling people names other then to boost his own Self-Esteem.

Quote from: RPGPunditIf you have answered anything other than "D20" (though not necessarily D&D); you are doing a tremendous disservice to the person in question.

:lol:

Quote from: BalbinusIndeed, though I don't rule out the possibility of finding d20 games I might want to run, it just wouldn't be because they were d20.  I don't hate d20, but nor is it a selling point for me.

I totally agree.   It doesnt rule you finding d20 games you want to run, nor does learning rpgs through another system rule out the new gamers will find a D20 game they want to run or play.

Quote from: BalbinusAnyway, surely it depends on what they want.  If they want something with a particular tone or style then it's best to find something like that, not say "hey, that's cool, we can totally do Pride and Prejudice using DnD3.5.  For this game Mr Darcy is an elf, ok?"

Who the fuck would be interested in RPGs in the first place to play Pride and Prejudice??!

Someone I don't particularly want in the hobby, to start with.  I think your example is absurd.

You are also using the old strawman/swine-tactic of overlapping D20 with D&D.

You could start a player with just about any iteration of D20 around, something that would mean that they'd be capable of conversing in the most universal "language" of the RPG hobby, and yet find something that suits them.  Everything from True20 to Traveller T20 to Mutants & Masterminds to Babylon 5 to whatever... you get my point.

Otherwise its a little like taking someone interested in learning International Business and insisting that they learn Hungarian, rather than English. They'll be pretty fucking confused when they learn that everyone else is speaking English.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Geek MessiahAnd Pundit's "Swine" comment is elitisim at it's worst and is why gamers get a bad name.

If I were a person who had never gamed but was interested in learning, walked into a game store and talked to Pundit to get more information about gaming and I was hit with his "elitist attitude" (Note: I am not calling people who play D20/D&D Elitist, I am mentioning Pundit because of his Swine Comment) I would turn and walk away.

I find it hilarious that you're calling the guy trying to defend the mainstream game that 99% of gamers play the "elitist" here. I would say that if a 15 year old kid walks into a gaming store, and I'm the one saying "here, kid, this is D&D, you'll find tons of people to play with, and there's ton of other cool games that use the same basic rules, that a ton of people also play", and then there's some shrill motherfucker in black eyeshadow saying "that game system is just an evil corporate plot made for ignoramuses and mouth-breathers! You should learn Gay Cowboys Eating Pudding by R. Bumquist·Unknowndude because its clearly superior", I would not be too concerned with which of us would come through as the real elitist.

QuoteWe have a shrinking pool of gamers and we need to make gaming hobby worth getting into, not come across as a elitist cult.

I agree, which is why I think we should promote the game that most people actually play, enjoy playing, and want to play.

RPGPundit