Quote from: blakkieHrmmmm, maybe providing and promoting some more alternatives (beyond goth vamps, likely the second biggest public face of RPGs) might be in order?  You know, instead of closing the doors to keep out the unwashed masses like those Pride & Prejudice freaks out?

I agree.  I think broading gamers and introducing them to more games then just D&D is the best thing to do and it's better for the industry.

There are people out there who do not like D20 (Either never liked it or played it and got burned out on it).

What if everyone was introduced to just D&D and/or D20 and everything else fell to the wayside and those who like other gamers could no longer find players?

This is unlikely to happen.  While D20 is still a popular system it is losing steam (as the market has gotten so flooded less people are doing it and game stores are so flooded with D20 stuff they are buying it but much less).

You think the industry is shrinking now?  I am sure many of the people who don't like D20 would end up leaving the hobby.   Now your hobby just got smaller and this is not the direction we need to go (ok this is very unlikely and a bit dramatic but you get where I am going with this).

I've always found Call of Cthulhu good.

a) Pretty simple system.
b) More folks are familiar with the horror genre and its conventions than the fantasy one.
c) 1920's setting is close enough to the real world that they understand how things work without you needing to stop and explain things every five minutes.
d) 1920's setting is far enough in the past that they don't go trying things like escaping danger by buying a ticket from a low cost airline.
e) Character's are closer to there own experience, average humans, than in other settings, with elves or vampires or what have you. Thus they can roleplay them a bit easier, as they understand their motivations.
f) They get use to the idea that a character can die, and that character death can actually be an enjoyable experience.

But often it depends on the person, if they are into superheros I'ld consider something like Mutants and Masterminds; if they like martial arts movies then Feng Shui; if they like fantasy the D&D.

For friends not into aspects of geek culture Call of Cthulhu seems to work for the reasons I've mentioned above.

Quote from: Geek MessiahI like games that have systems built specifically for them.   Not games that have generic systems bent and pulled to fit (That's D20 *AND* a host of other generic systems- Fuzion, Action!, Fudge, the list goes on and on so this is not a D20 Hate-On).   I find games that have their own system instead of having a generic system bent to fit work better and get the genre feel.

Again, I think that's more a matter of perception than anything else. Reinventing the wheel everytime is usually unnecessary. Take Babylon 5 and Conan. Each had systems specifically designed for them in earlier RPG incarnations - TSR did Conan in the mid 80s, Chameleon Eclectic did B5 some years back. The current d20/OGL versions have received quite a bit of praise, where their forebears sank with nary a trace. I've seen complaints about both earlier games that they just didn't fit the setting. I actually have both versions of each game, and while the earlier versions aren't awful (well, OK, maybe in the case of CE's B5 game), they don't seem to fit their respective settings any better than the d20 versions. So there's no guarantee that starting from scratch is really going to result in the perfect fit.

Quote from: ColonelHardissonSo there's no guarantee that starting from scratch is really going to result in the perfect fit.

A better example, in my opinion, was Starship Troopers.

Which was OGL, and way better than it had any right to be.

But that's my opinion.

Quote from: Geek MessiahYou think the industry is shrinking now?  I am sure many of the people who don't like D20 would end up leaving the hobby.   Now your hobby just got smaller and this is not the direction we need to go (ok this is very unlikely and a bit dramatic but you get where I am going with this).

It was shrinking before the advent of d20. d20 simply gave the industry, such as it is, a shot in the arm. Even if most of the people who jumped in to RPGs through d20 left, you'd likely be left with more gamers than there were before d20.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenA better example, in my opinion, was Starship Troopers.

Which was OGL, and way better than it had any right to be.

But that's my opinion.

There was an earlier ST RPG? I wasn't aware of it.

Mongoose's ST RPG just never caught my interest. If you say it's good, I'll take a closer look at it.

Quote from: ColonelHardissonI like d20 Modern.

Compared to what?

Quote from: blakkieCompared to what?

Compared to most modern-themed games. That doesn't mean I dislike those other games, just that I like d20 Modern also.

Quote from: blakkieI've seen D20M, and I have shivered in revulsion.

Don't try to tell me Monopoly makes a good Candyland.

So this is what the monopoly candyland thing was about? D20 Modern is an excellent game for any party-based adventure that involves a lot of action. I've done the futuristic (D20 Future) version of it plenty.

Quote from: ColonelHardissonCompared to most modern-themed games. That doesn't mean I dislike those other games, just that I like d20 Modern also.

D20M just screams modern ranged combat shoehored into a medieval melee and magic combat paradigm.

The use of Feats in the system? Eep.

Then D20's Skills system is largely a side-system instead of being part of the system proper. I guess I'm just spoiled expecting a somewhat more robust skill systems to cover breadth of things that I expect to be part of a more modern game.

The idea that bullets only exist along a limited section of their tragectory supercedes my comfort level in suspension of believe.

And that's just the tip of my beefs. Sure with the muzzle of a 9mm handgun pressed to my temple I'd use it. But my preference would fall elsewhere.

Quote from: blakkieD20M just screams modern ranged combat shoehored into a medieval melee and magic combat paradigm.

The use of Feats in the system? Eep.

Then D20's Skills system is largely a side-system instead of being part of the system proper. I guess I'm just spoiled expecting a somewhat more robust skill systems to cover breadth of things that I expect to be part of a more modern game.

The idea that bullets only exist along a limited section of their tragectory supercedes my comfort level in suspension of believe.

And that's just the tip of my beefs. Sure with the muzzle of a 9mm handgun pressed to my temple I'd use it. But my preference would fall elsewhere.

Ok, I'm totally convinced. Your'e retarded.

Quote from: Abyssal MawOk, I'm totally convinced. Your'e retarded.

Correct on details, but retarded?

Quote from: blakkieCorrect on details, but retarded?

Nope. Just retarded.

Quote from: blakkieThe idea that bullets only exist along a limited section of their tragectory supercedes my comfort level in suspension of believe.

Oooh that reminds me of something I need to post in the "Magic Deer" thread.

It's probably one of the main things that kills D20 Modern for me, which is a shame as I actually like the classes based on attributes concept, no matter how weird it is.

Quote from: blakkieThe use of Feats in the system? Eep.

Then D20's Skills system is largely a side-system instead of being part of the system proper. I guess I'm just spoiled expecting a somewhat more robust skill systems to cover breadth of things that I expect to be part of a more modern game.

Spoiled how? Sheesh... if anything I consider D20's skill system underplayed in D&D and am glad that other game were developed that made better use of it.

And feats somehow inappropriate outside D&D? Don't tell Steve Jackson or Pinacle.

:idunno:

I will cop that the firearms rules in d20 modern, succinctly put, sucks ass (though my particular bugbears differ from yours, though I suspect you might be talking about one I hate but for different reason. The main thing I hate about autofire spray is somehow it ignores armor.) Fortunately, but the time d20 modern came out, several other d20 authors put out decent takes on firearms, which were fairly easy to swap in.