Quote from: RPGPunditYou could start a player with just about any iteration of D20 around, something that would mean that they'd be capable of conversing in the most universal "language" of the RPG hobby, and yet find something that suits them.  Everything from True20 to Traveller T20 to Mutants & Masterminds to Babylon 5 to whatever... you get my point.

Otherwise its a little like taking someone interested in learning International Business and insisting that they learn Hungarian, rather than English. They'll be pretty fucking confused when they learn that everyone else is speaking English.

This is sort of half of what I was getting at with my first post in this thread.

Of course, it's unreasonable to expect someone to teach someone a game they don't run well or enjoy, so I think Balbinus' point is well taken, too.

It also probably depends on where you live... I'm given to understand that in Germany, D&D/d20 are not king of the hill.

But yeah... you might try some other game for a first game, but learning some iteration of d20 gives the player more options. Yes, I said that. Games that don't have groups playing them in your area aren't options.

Quote from: RPGPunditWho the fuck would be interested in RPGs in the first place to play Pride and Prejudice??!

Someone I don't particularly want in the hobby, to start with.  I think your example is absurd.

You are also using the old strawman/swine-tactic of overlapping D20 with D&D.

You could start a player with just about any iteration of D20 around, something that would mean that they'd be capable of conversing in the most universal "language" of the RPG hobby, and yet find something that suits them.  Everything from True20 to Traveller T20 to Mutants & Masterminds to Babylon 5 to whatever... you get my point.

Otherwise its a little like taking someone interested in learning International Business and insisting that they learn Hungarian, rather than English. They'll be pretty fucking confused when they learn that everyone else is speaking English.

RPGPundit

You are using hyperbole to prove your argument. In introducing someone to RPGs you want a combination of two things, a setting or subject they are interested in and a system that introduces the basic concepts of system backed story telling. I have introduced literally hundreds of people to RPGing and I used to try to force a system or setting on them in the beginning but quickly learned that if you get a feel for the persons likes and dislikes you can fit the introduction to them.

In my stores in the 90s, we (my staff and I) mostly used WOD products since they had a simple system and Vampires and the like were the rage then. It was truly strange to have people later come in saying their first RP experience was Vampire. I had always heard DND before that. BTW- we also used a lot of other games like Shadowrun, Palladium and to a far lesser extent DND 2nd.

In the end, it is less like a language, IMO, and more like a hobby (or a box of chocolates..mmm) ...er, it is a hobby;i.e. people need to sample to find what they want to settle with. Some of us just keep sampling...

Bill

Quote from: RPGPundit... Gay Cowboys Eating Pudding ...

By itself, this game isn't that great.  But if you combine it with Toon, it is the prefect game to seduce ... er, introduce new people to gaming!

I would use True20 with a simplified, on-the-fly version of whatever genre might interest the player(s).

I was just talking about how I was agreeing a lot with the pundit lately, then I read this thread.

You are doing noone a disservice by introducing someone to a non-D&D RPG over D&D.

If you are going to introduce someone to an RPG, pick the one you like the most. New players will pick up on how much you like the game and it will show in your games.

If you intorduce somone to RPGs through a game you don't like all that much or don't know very well, that is a disservice.

Quote from: RPGPunditWho the fuck would be interested in RPGs in the first place to play Pride and Prejudice??!

Me.  Quite seriously, I'd buy that instantly.

Quote from: RPGPunditSomeone I don't particularly want in the hobby, to start with.

Good for you.

Quote from: RPGPunditI find it hilarious that you're calling the guy trying to defend the mainstream game that 99% of gamers play the "elitist" here. I would say that if a 15 year old kid walks into a gaming store, and I'm the one saying "here, kid, this is D&D, you'll find tons of people to play with, and there's ton of other cool games that use the same basic rules, that a ton of people also play", and then there's some shrill motherfucker in black eyeshadow saying "that game system is just an evil corporate plot made for ignoramuses and mouth-breathers! You should learn Gay Cowboys Eating Pudding by R. Bumquist·Unknowndude because its clearly superior", I would not be too concerned with which of us would come through as the real elitist.

This isn't about you defending D&D or D20, this is about you making an elitist comment.   When you call people who think a certain way swine you are being elitist.

There are plenty of people who don't play D&D or any of the various D20 off-shoots.   Noone in my very large group plays D20.  A few of them dont even like it.

And you know full and well I am not saying "WOTC is an evil corporation nor amd I saying people who don't play D20 or D&D are superior to those who do.  You are being overdramatic on this point.

Quote from: RPGPunditI agree, which is why I think we should promote the game that most people actually play, enjoy playing, and want to play.

RPGPundit

There are plenty of other good games out there and I think A verity of games is a good thing.

I think playing one system is not a good way for this hobby to go.

Quote from: AkrasiaBy itself, this game isn't that great.  But if you combine it with Toon, it is the prefect game to seduce ... er, introduce new people to gaming!

He has mentioned this twice so far in a couple different threads.  Very interesting

Quote from: McrowYou are doing noone a disservice by introducing someone to a non-D&D RPG over D&D.

If you are going to introduce someone to an RPG, pick the one you like the most. New players will pick up on how much you like the game and it will show in your games.

If you intorduce somone to RPGs through a game you don't like all that much or don't know very well, that is a disservice.

I totally agree.   As I have said before if they want to play D&D or one of the many incarnations of D20 noone is saying that they can't move on to them.

There are so many good games out there that aren't D20 that I wish that the people who play D20 would broaden their horizons.   I know that not all D20 players play D20 and that's all but I know there are some out there and it's sad.

Quote from: Geek MessiahThere are so many good games out there that aren't D20 that I wish that the people who play D20 would broaden their horizons.   I know that not all D20 players play D20 and that's all but I know there are some out there and it's sad.

I agree people should braoden their horizons. But based just on this forum alone, there seems to be a lot of people who will play anything but d20. Oftentimes this is because of some misconception of what the game is or how it can altered to fit a genre. Sometimes it's just because they prefer another system. But, sometimes it's just because of some kind of principle - they hate Hasbro, they hate D&D/d20 because it's the big game out there, etc. That's also sad.

Quote from: RPGPunditI find it hilarious that you're calling the guy trying to defend the mainstream game that 99% of gamers play the "elitist" here.

What you are actually doing is promoting the status quo. "Oink!" cries Hunter S. Thompson.

QuoteI agree, which is why I think we should promote the game that most people actually play, enjoy playing, and want to play.

News flash. Most people actually don't play D&D, or any RPG.  D&D has been the first and foremost face of RPGs that these people would have made that choice based on. Hrmmmm, maybe providing and promoting some more alternatives (beyond goth vamps, likely the second biggest public face of RPGs) might be in order?  You know, instead of closing the doors to keep out the unwashed masses like those Pride & Prejudice freaks out?

Quote from: ColonelHardissonOftentimes this is because of some misconception of what the game is or how it can altered to fit a genre. Sometimes it's just because they prefer another system.

I've seen D20M, and I have shivered in revulsion.

Don't try to tell me Monopoly makes a good Candyland.

Quote from: ColonelHardissonI agree people should braoden their horizons. But based just on this forum alone, there seems to be a lot of people who will play anything but d20.

I have a slightly different perception.

I play, and enjoy, d20 and D&D.  I have written OGL stuff.  I don't see any need to talk about it because I'm not excited about any of their stuff at the moment - most of their new products make me shrug and wander off, nothing more.

I also don't see any need to slag on them, because I'll bet money that they will put out something that makes me excited again in the not-too-distant future.

So, for the time being, I just leave it alone.  And my perception is that this is a pretty common thing for many gamers to do.

Quote from: blakkieI've seen D20M, and I have shivered in revulsion.

Don't try to tell me Monopoly makes a good Candyland.

I like d20 Modern. It's all about subjectivity when it comes to games.

Quote from: ColonelHardissonI agree people should braoden their horizons. But based just on this forum alone, there seems to be a lot of people who will play anything but d20.

News to me.  It seems the D20 defenders are coming out in groves.  It seems like more people who just play D20 then other Non-D20 systems.

Quote from: ColonelHardissonOftentimes this is because of some misconception of what the game is or how it can altered to fit a genre. Sometimes it's just because they prefer another system.

I like games that have systems built specifically for them.   Not games that have generic systems bent and pulled to fit (That's D20 *AND* a host of other generic systems- Fuzion, Action!, Fudge, the list goes on and on so this is not a D20 Hate-On).   I find games that have their own system instead of having a generic system bent to fit work better and get the genre feel.

Quote from: ColonelHardissonBut, sometimes it's just because of some kind of principle - they hate Hasbro, they hate D&D/d20 because it's the big game out there, etc. That's also sad.

I agree with you on this point.   I don't hate D20 because of Hasbro, I don't hate D20 because it's the big dog, I hate it because I think it's a very poor system.

I have/am getting rid of a D20 game (Spycraft 2.0) which I gave a try and do not like.   I have given it a chance and it's not for me.