Quote from: VellorianThe absolute last thing I'd ever show someone new to the hobby is anything related to D20 or D&D.  D20 is massively complex, kills any desire to roleplay and is downright tedious in the extreme.

Oddly enough, it still is the most popular RPG system. Plus, the notion it kills any desire to roleplay is ridiculous. It flies in the face of the fact that there are countless people who use the system to do just that.

Quote from: VellorianAnd, of course, there's the negative feelings the world has in general about D&D.

What world is this? Here on Earth where I'm at, D&D is pretty much the only RPG known to non-gamers. Except for a few isolated hold-outs from the 1980s, D&D has about as negative a connotation to non-gamers as comic books.

Quote from: VellorianAnytime D&D comes up in conversation, all I can say is, "D&D is the Model T of the gaming world.  This is a Ferrari.  Let me take you for a spin..."

This is the mindset that I call "geeks calling geeks geeks." It's the kind of thing that makes RPG players look bad.

I think D&D would be fine if you used pre-generated characters and low-balled the competition.  EL = APL encounters and all that.  Probably using feat cards and spell cards as well.

Quote from: VellorianThe absolute last thing I'd ever show someone new to the hobby is anything related to D20 or D&D. D20 is massively complex, kills any desire to roleplay and is downright tedious in the extreme.

Quote from: LostSoulI think D&D would be fine if you used pre-generated characters and low-balled the competition.

It's time for my daughter anecdote.

My daughter, when 7, expressed an interest in the game (having seen it played).

I started her with a 1st level rogue using the "all skills are maxed out" simplification to keep her from worrying about allocating skill ranks (something I know can be tedious.)

By the time the 2nd level came around, I intended on just upping all her ranks. But she quickly caught on to the "full" way to buy things, and insisted on being able to allocate all her ranks as she saw fit.

In short, I see bluster to the effect of "nobody can roleplay using D&D" or "D&D is too complicated for begginers" to be overstated bluster and wishful thinknig by those with different preferences.

Quote from: Caesar SlaadIn short, I see bluster to the effect of "nobody can roleplay using D&D" or "D&D is too complicated for begginers" to be overstated bluster and wishful thinknig by those with different preferences.

Exactly. I wish I still had the exact wording of Maddman's quote I used as a sig for a while, but here is as close as I can get: "Don't get on your high horse and tell me yours is the best way to play a gay-ass elf."

Quote from: ColonelHardissonWhat world is this? Here on Earth where I'm at, D&D is pretty much the only RPG known to non-gamers. Except for a few isolated hold-outs from the 1980s, D&D has about as negative a connotation to non-gamers as comic books.

The corporate world, to be exact.  Where even the slightest mention of D&D garners rolled eyes and drops you about a dozen rungs down the ladder you were hoping to climb for a promotion.

In fact, I've taken to telling people, when they ask about my roleplaying hobby, that it's "nothing like D&D."  Usually the exchange goes something like this:

Colleague: What are you doing this weekend?
Me: I've invited some friends over to roleplay this weekend.
Colleague: Roleplay?  What is that?
Me: It's where we gather together, create imaginary characters, run them through a scenario or adventure and try to exercise problem solving skills to find the most advantageous outcome.
Colleague: (Disgusted look on face) It's not like Dungeons and Dragons, is it?
Me: Absolutely not. Although D&D may be a type of roleplaying game, too, it shares little or nothing with the activities that my friends and I enjoy.
Colleague: (smiling now) I'm interested in what you've described, perhaps I could join you sometime?

The corporate world considers Dungeons and Dragons, and anyone who would think to participate with it, to be the equivalent of telling folks you go home and smash puppies and kittens with sledgehammers for fun.

I don't know what world you come from, but that's the standard attitude I get everywhere I go in Corporate America.

EDIT: Let me also clarify, that although I don't find any enjoyment from D20 or D&D (nor my daughter, apparently), I specifically avoided tainting her perceptions.  

Nor do I consider anyone else who uses the games to be "damaged" or "different."  To each their own.

However, to the rest of the world, I would never admit to involvement with D&D or D20.  It labels you as a social misfit who is unworthy of participating in the "real world."  

Since my advancement in my career requires that I appease these people, I cannot afford to admit to any sort of involvement (nor would I actually desire any sort of involvement, my every experience with D&D and D20 has been radically bad and I wish you all well who can stomach it, but I cannot).

Complication is actually attractive.  

For example.  Here's a game.  Both players roll 1d6.  High roll wins.  On a tie, roll again.

The only thing you can do to affect this game is roll the die (or cheat).  Now, let's add a little bit more complexity to this game.

Each player has 1 fudge points.  A game is played in three rounds.  Each round, both players roll 1d6.  High roll wins the round.  On a tie, roll again.  A fudge point can be expended to alter a die roll by 1 point.  The player who wins two or more rounds wins the game.

Now, not much complexity has been added, but the game now has more options to make play more interesting and engaging.  The "fudge points" hypothetically add a strategic element to the game.  They can create a win from a tied roll, or force a tie when the rolls are close enough.  So, there could be a certain strategy to their use.  Even the wording of the rules adds complexity.  For example, "A fudge point can be expended to alter a die roll by 1 point."  Does this mean a player can alter the other player's roll?  So, this point can be argued.

Complication will keep people playing a game.  The more complex it is, the harder it is to see all potential options, and therefore have exhausted the potential of the game.

The trick is to balance complication against intimidation.  If the game is so intimidating as to put everyone off (SFB with all the expansions), then no one will ever experience the most basic version of the game to get hooked.

I'd use whatever game I was playing, usually one of my own. Seems to work just fine, most of the time.

-mice

Quote from: VellorianHowever, to the rest of the world, I would never admit to involvement with D&D or D20.  It labels you as a social misfit who is unworthy of participating in the "real world."

To steal a quote, the "rest of the world" doesn't know a D20 from a Dee Snider.

Quote from: Caesar SlaadTo steal a quote, the "rest of the world" doesn't know a D20 from a Dee Snider.

One would think that to be the case.  However, one of the Senior VPs, when we talked about roleplaying specifically said, "Is this like D&D ... or are they calling it D20, now?"

The "rest of the world" may not be aware of nuances and details, but many of them are waking up to the fact that there are relationships.  

To add insult to injury, I have a few friends in HR who told me about experiences with certain managers who gave them instructions to "lose" resumes that mentioned D&D or D20.  (Yes, some fools still insist on putting their hobbies on their resumes...)

Quote from: VellorianTo add insult to injury, I have a few friends in HR who told me about experiences with certain managers who gave them instructions to "lose" resumes that mentioned D&D or D20.

:eek:

I don't know what wierds me out more... that people would put that on their resume unless they are applying to WotC or something, or that anyone would screen for it.

I have enough trouble fitting everything on my resume and enough fear that someone is going to have a stick up their arse about it.

Honestly, unless I were hiring a writer or someone in the hobby, I would drop anyone who listed D&D on their resume, too.

I work in an insurance company.  Anyone who sees D&D as important enough to throw on their resume is worth overlooking.

-O

You know, hobbies on resumes were initially supposed to give an indication of talents which the BS of the rest of the resume might be overshadowing.

For example, someone who is a collector will probably have above average organizational abilities, and might be good at cataloguing things.  A person into model trains might have some construction and mechanical skills.

A hobby of D&D can indicate better than average math skills, and a better than average memory.  It also indicates a degree of reading skill that, quite frankly, is becoming rarer in the US.

But, you're right, the negative connotations probably overwhelm that.  And since resumes are largely intended nowadays to provide information to NOT hire someone, many bosses will look at hobbies not as an insight into a potential employee, but as "well, he doesn't have the same interests I do.  Into the trash he goes."

Quote from: VellorianOne would think that to be the case.  However, one of the Senior VPs, when we talked about roleplaying specifically said, "Is this like D&D ... or are they calling it D20, now?"

The "rest of the world" may not be aware of nuances and details, but many of them are waking up to the fact that there are relationships.  

To add insult to injury, I have a few friends in HR who told me about experiences with certain managers who gave them instructions to "lose" resumes that mentioned D&D or D20.  (Yes, some fools still insist on putting their hobbies on their resumes...)

Hey, this could lead to a gamer suing a major corporation for discrimination someday.

Assuming that all the players were new to role-playing games:

The Moldvay version of the D&D Basic Rules (the one with the Erol Otus cover).

Either that, or the Castles & Crusades box set (the 'basic rules' with only 4 classes).

OTOH, if a new player were joining a group that already had experienced players in it, I would help him/her create a new character (probably the 'most simple' kind of character possible), and let him/her join the game!

One of my own.