Quote from: gleichmanThere is likely some.

*Assuming* all things are equal, RPGNet when I checked was about a third of the total between them and EnWorld.  

I'm thinking it's perfectly acceptable to teach people games liked by a third of the population under RPGPundit's values.

Sure.

I was only nodding because as likely as not, it's the most accessible.

If you can find 2 indie groups, 3 WoD groups, and 5 d20 groups in your area, it really doesn't matter so much which you prefer.

If you can only find one guy who would really like to play indie games, 1 WoD group, and 3 d20 groups, it begins to matter.

Quote from: gleichmanYou'd be hard pressed to prove that.

Not really, consider the size of the Wizard board alone; plus ENWorld (which is still mostly D20) plus all the D20 related corporate boards.  The fact that rpgnet and the Forge are anti-D20 doesn't really count for much if you look at the whole bigger picture.

And its certainly even fucking easier to prove that Forge games are not the "most popular" with gamers online.

RPGPundit

I would use the D&D Rules Cyclopedia.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenAnd I should also take my friend who likes Charles Dickens to see a modern action movie instead of even considering renting, say, Oliver Twist.

Yeah, right.

How is that in any way a similar comparison?

A more accurate way of putting it is like this: your friend is interested in playing chess. Do you teach him the Enochian variant first, or do you teach him CHESS first, and then give him the option of looking at variants?

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditHow is that in any way a similar comparison?

First, I have friends-of-friends that like romance movies.  I own Breaking the Ice.  I have friends that like Anime.  I own Exalted and The Mountain Witch.  I have friends that like morality-type westerns, like Unforgiven. I own Dogs in the Vineyard.  Why wouldn't I give them something they like?

Second, in the course of my time gaming, I've introduced about a dozen new people into tabletop RPGs, and about twice that many into LARP, that stuck arounf for at least three games (the number of just-one-try people I've seen at bigger demos I've run, I'm not actually sure about).  The way I do it works.  Why on earth should I change?

Quote from: Levi KornelsenWhy on earth should I change?

Because the fewer people playing those games the better

Quote from: gleichmanBecause the few people playing those games the better

Fuck that.

The more people I have 'on tap' to play with, the better.

I'm in this for me.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenI'm in this for me.

I guessed that

Quote from: gleichmanI guessed that

Consider it, man.

Who else would I be in it for?  Or anyone else among us?

Do we game to please this guy?  :pundit:

I think not.

More on-topic, and arguments about the morality of "doing a grave disservice" to new gamers with Forge games - beg pardon while I make sure where I'm posting - I'd introduce them with pared-down Heroquest converted to a genre they enjoy (or Questworlds when it comes out). This is assuming, of course, they don't ask for something specific - "I'd like to learn that D&D game I hear about", f'rex, in which case I'd send them elsewhere, because I have a job and a fiancee and a life and I can't devote 20 hours to stat blocks in a week any more. But at least they're learning.

I can get Heroquest going inside half an hour and it provides a really handy way for me to get a look at what about the hobby interests them. If they direly need "more game" to play with, I'll bust out True20 and do the genre thing again. Because ultimately, if I'm introducing someone to the hobby, I'm probably bringing them in to play at my table. Why teach them something we'll never play? I'm not trying to introduce them to the rules they'll see most often if they jump from group to group looking for a game they like, I'm trying to introduce them to the fun roleplayers derive from roleplaying.

A notice: Before anybody decides to take up the pitchfork and torch, I don't hate d20. I do, however, think it's more exceptions, discreet rules chunks, and mechanical fiddly bits than I feel like engaging with to enjoy my hobby. Because you know what? Fuck the industry, fuck the hobby, fuck what Pundit demands we do. My gaming doesn't go any farther than my table, and that's the fun I'm concerned about.

Quote from: RPGPunditIf you have answered anything other than "D20" (though not necessarily D&D); you are doing a tremendous disservice to the person in question.

You also might very well be a Swine, depending on which game you mentioned.

I mean honestly, why would you want to introduce someone to "Roleplaying" with the hopes that they will become a regular and well-rounded participant in the hobby by presenting them with anything other than the single most popular, most played RPG system in the known universe?

Otherwise its like taking someone who's never heard Rock music before, and presenting, say, the Blue Aeroplanes or Broken Social Scene and telling them "this is what Rock music is like", instead of showing them The Beatles or Led Zeppelin, or U2.  I mean, you'll not just warp their whole idea of what "rock music" is but you are showing them stuff that only a very marginal group of people have even heard of, much less would consider (good) Rock.

RPGPundit

*SIGH*

Once again the dreaded "Swine" title comes out when even the possibility of someone disagreeing with pundy is raised.

I do not play d20, I do not like d20 and I would not introduce anyone to RPGing with d20, and I happen to resent the implication that by not getting someone into d20 I am doing them a disservice.

I would use gurps to introduce someone into gaming even tho I hate jackson and his 'friend" hackard, because gurps is a better system in most ways and easier to learn, but still loaded with enough options to do everything from cinematic to hardcore reality.

I suppose now I'll be forever on pundy's dreaded "swine" list. So be it, who cares?

Quote from: Dominus Nox*SIGH*

Once again the dreaded "Swine" title comes out when even the possibility of someone disagreeing with pundy is raised.

I do not play d20, I do not like d20 and I would not introduce anyone to RPGing with d20, and I happen to resent the implication that by not getting someone into d20 I am doing them a disservice.

I would use gurps to introduce someone into gaming even tho I hate jackson and his 'friend" hackard, because gurps is a better system in most ways and easier to learn, but still loaded with enough options to do everything from cinematic to hardcore reality.

I suppose now I'll be forever on pundy's dreaded "swine" list. So be it, who cares?

Isn't the pundit's anti-swine rant on this thread a bona fide threadcrap? Jeez louise!

People want a Forge game, I'll run them a Forge game. And if the :pundit: shows up and complains about it, I'll hand him paper, pencil, and some dice, tell him to sit his ass down, and he can show the newbies how it's done. You want to opine on how it should be done, by God you're going to show people how it's done.

Quote from: RPGPunditWho the fuck would be interested in RPGs in the first place to play Pride and Prejudice??!

I dunno.  Regency romance sounds like a fantastic gaming genre and I know two of my players would practically squeal with delight if I proposed it.  My wife would obviously want her character to have the opportunity to shag Colin Firth, but that's another story

If they're a Buffy fan, we'd play Buffy.  If they like superheroes, Truth and Justice would be a good place to start

If they wanted Dungeons and Dragons I'd run it

Quote from: Levi KornelsenFirst, I have friends-of-friends that like romance movies.  I own Breaking the Ice.  I have friends that like Anime.  I own Exalted and The Mountain Witch.  I have friends that like morality-type westerns, like Unforgiven. I own Dogs in the Vineyard.  Why wouldn't I give them something they like?

The reason why not? The simplest reason is because romance movies aren't games, and people interested in romance movies aren't necessarily interested in gaming at all. There's a huge leap between the two (from enjoying a genre to convincing a total non gamer into playing a game about the genre). Likewise with westerns and everything else.

But the leap between online gamers and tabletop is much easier. Heck, they already call themselves 'gamers'.

Here's what 12 million World of Warcraft players seem to be enjoying: It's like a top ten list of the things hipster gamers hate the most:

levels.
classes.
hit points.
fantasy races.
spells. use of modular tactics ("feats") to defeat encounters.
building their character from novice to superhero.
quests. raids. dungeons.
battling monsters.
gear. magical gear. crafting your own gear.
playing the same character regularly, for months.  

Now, given all of that.. and given this huge potential pool of people who are interested in the subject of 'gaming' but perhaps haven't played tabletop before.... What game should I then introduce?

Breaking the Ice?

See, this is why I laugh at you guys.