Quote from: Abyssal MawWell, theyre being brought in that way, sure. But I am suggesting that some of those people can become Tabletop gamers pretty easily, given the opportunity.

Right, they can be brought in pretty easily (hopefully), however the MMO's are drawing people away from the hobby because of their easy.   Sure some people do both but many are leaving to go to MMO's because of the lack of overhead involved in playing.

Quote from: Abyssal MawThe "industry people" don't matter.

The industry people do matter.   They give us real numbers on how our hobby is doing.   Right now we are in a slump.  Right now we are loosing people faster then they are coming in.

Is the hobby dying?  Of course not.  But I would like to see it in better health.

Quote from: Abyssal MawYeah, it's easy to play World of Warcraft, and you can do it completely alone. But if your'e already liking the idea of playing in a fantasy world, and you get the idea of gear and hit points, your'e ripe for being brought in. And I know this because why? Because I got two players in my current campaign who sought out a demo I ran at the local gamestore, specifically interested in playing D&D after they got into Final Fantasy.

But the thing is getting together gamers is as pain.  There are conflicting schedules, lives, work, many things that can get in the way.  An MMO you turn on and play.   You dont have to schedule it around other people.  This it is not surprising we are loosing people to MMO's, Miniature Games and whatever diversions are grabbing people's attention

Quote from: Caesar SlaadBe that as it may, if you don't think that their is at least a qualitative correlation between the net memberships of WotC boards, ENWorld, RPGnet, and the forge and the online segment of those who are catered to by the respective topic areas of those boards, I rather think you are in denial.

There is likely some.

*Assuming* all things are equal, RPGNet when I checked was about a third of the total between them and EnWorld.  

I'm thinking it's perfectly acceptable to teach people games liked by a third of the population under RPGPundit's values.

Quote from: RPGPunditYou could start a player with just about any iteration of D20 around, something that would mean that they'd be capable of conversing in the most universal "language" of the RPG hobby, and yet find something that suits them.  Everything from True20 to Traveller T20 to Mutants & Masterminds to Babylon 5 to whatever... you get my point.

Speaking anecdotaly, I don't think this is as effective as advertised.  People interested in learning other games will learn other games.  People not interested in learning other games won't.  The only companies which have achieved any degree of cross-pollenization between games are Palladium and TSR, and both did so more effectively by cross marketing.  Palladium puts advertisements in every book and also puts little blurbs in the text about how you need such and such other product.  TSR did something similar but much lower key in the early 80s.

Quote from: Geek MessiahRight, they can be brought in pretty easily (hopefully), however the MMO's are drawing people away from the hobby because of their easy.

It's more than the fact they are easy, they also provide a great deal of the same return for a large segment of the gaming crowd- mostly those who used to find those returns in D&D (lots of people to play with, straight-forward dungon crawls, etc.).

Add "easy" on top of that, and it's a better product than pen and paper RPGs.

Quote from: gleichmanIt's more than the fact they are easy, they also provide a great deal of the same return for a large segment of the gaming crowd- mostly those who used to find those returns in D&D (lots of people to play with, straight-forward dungon crawls, etc.).

Add "easy" on top of that, and it's a better product than pen and paper RPGs.

Yep.   And while some gamers do both some move on to MMO's and leave rpgs which adds to the large gap in gamers we have.

Quote from: Geek MessiahRight, they can be brought in pretty easily (hopefully), however the MMO's are drawing people away from the hobby because of their easy.   Sure some people do both but many are leaving to go to MMO's because of the lack of overhead involved in playing.

But the thing is getting together gamers is as pain.  There are conflicting schedules, lives, work, many things that can get in the way.  An MMO you turn on and play.   You dont have to schedule it around other people.  This it is not surprising we are loosing people to MMO's, Miniature Games and whatever diversions are grabbing people's attention

I don't believe gamers are leaving tabletop roleplaying behind to play MMOs. Seriously. I believe that gamers who have been kind of out of the hobby for a while, may pick it up as a substitute and I know gamers who play MMOs and still show up to the weekly game every week. I don't imagine anyone saying "well.. I could play the weekly campaign.. or I could play World of Warcraft...but it has to be one or the other. " Anyone who has ever played, knows that World of Warcraft is the substitute for the real thing, and not the other way around.

If anything, for the hobby to be more healthy, people should just organize more games and play regular weekly campaigns that are as regular as poker nights.

And (IMO) if they really want to be successful as games that people will come back to week after week--, they should try and emphasize fun and teamwork rather than emoting all over each other.

Quote from: gleichmanIt's more than the fact they are easy, they also provide a great deal of the same return for a large segment of the gaming crowd- mostly those who used to find those returns in D&D (lots of people to play with, straight-forward dungon crawls, etc.).

Add "easy" on top of that, and it's a better product than pen and paper RPGs.

See, I don't believe this, it's not better at all. I should know, I play them constantly (Anvilmar server, I have a 30th level rogue, and I'm working on my low-level Mage right now. )

Theyre fun, but theyre no substitute for the real thing.

Quote from: Geek MessiahYep.   And while some gamers do both some move on to MMO's and leave rpgs which adds to the large gap in gamers we have.

I expect it will worsen as MMO reach a point where they are able to react and respond to individuals and groups with respect to a persistent world visible only to them. Currently that's their major limit.

At some point in the future I expect RPGs will be much like wargames are today. A very tiny hobby. It will be a while I think. Software is slow to advance.

Quote from: Abyssal MawI don't believe gamers are leaving tabletop roleplaying behind to play MMOs. Seriously. I believe that gamers who have been kind of out of the hobby for a while, may pick it up as a substitute and I know gamers who play MMOs and still show up to the weekly game every week. I don't imagine anyone saying "well.. I could play the weekly campaign.. or I could play World of Warcraft...but it has to be one or the other. " Anyone who has ever played, knows that World of Warcraft is the substitute for the real thing, and not the other way around.

Some gamers have left the hobby to move to MMO's due to disinterest in gaming and time issues.  Minature Games, Time/Life Issues, etc play into the slump.

Are MMO's the cause of the slump the hobby is in?  No.  It's more then just MMO's that are drawing people away.   We as gamers need to find ways to get people back in the hobby.

Quote from: Abyssal MawIf anything, for the hobby to be more healthy, people should just organize more games and play regular weekly campaigns that are as regular as poker nights.

That is wishfull thinking but people who are married, have kids, have jobs cant always get together on a regular basis.  It happens.   A group I was in fell apart because of time/schedule issues.  Otherwise we were having a ball with the game (Even though I couldnt roll worth a crap but thats for another thread).

Quote from: Abyssal MawAnd (IMO) if they really want to be successful as games that people will come back to week after week--, they should try and emphasize fun and teamwork rather than emoting all over each other.

Yep but as I said issues do get in the way.   People don't always leave because they aren't having fun or MMO's are easier.   Some people leave their groups or the hobby due to time constraints.

Quote from: Abyssal MawSee, I don't believe this, it's not better at all. I should know, I play them constantly

When you leave PnP, then you should know- before that you're just an old timer who can't get out of his rut

Quote from: Abyssal MawSee, I don't believe this, it's not better at all. I should know, I play them constantly (Anvilmar server, I have a 30th level rogue, and I'm working on my low-level Mage right now. )

Theyre fun, but theyre no substitute for the real thing.

As much as I hate to do this (Kidding)  I totally agree with you.

MMO's are fun but I think P&P rpgs are much better.  Besides MMO's are a set world where RPGS you can actually expand on the world around you.

Quote from: gleichmanI expect it will worsen as MMO reach a point where they are able to react and respond to individuals and groups with respect to a persistent world visible only to them. Currently that's their major limit.

At some point in the future I expect RPGs will be much like wargames are today. A very tiny hobby. It will be a while I think. Software is slow to advance.

Meanwhile we have to come up with a way to get more gamers in the hobby.  It would be nice to be able to convert those MMO players into rpg players.  Show them that both are fun and they can do both.

Quote from: gleichmanIt's more than the fact they are easy, they also provide a great deal of the same return for a large segment of the gaming crowd- mostly those who used to find those returns in D&D (lots of people to play with, straight-forward dungon crawls, etc.).

Add "easy" on top of that, and it's a better product than pen and paper RPGs.

I once had this friend named Jason.  He was a casual gamer.  He was what I'd call a "hanger on."  He played out of a lack of anything better to do with his immediate time.  I think a lot of young teenagers are like that.  They don't play because they really enjoy RPGing, but they play because it's a way to burn time.

Jason's brother, Ben, was the more dedicated gamer in the household.  That wasn't a good thing as Ben tended to run the same adventure over and over.  Anyone who has gamed for any period of time has probably played it.  You start off nude in a 10x10x10 cell, and have to wait for a NPC to let you out.  Then everyone goes off on random tangents either trying to destroy whatever town the party happens to be in or attempting to kill all the other members of the party.  You never encountered an monsters besides your fellow players in a game run by Ben.

Of course, this was back in the 80s, personal computers were becoming big.  People today call the computers of the era "toy computers," but they actually had a lot of advantages.  Anyway, Jason managed to somehow get hold of a Commodore 64 and a disc drive which was like a MAJOR teenage coup of the time.  Soon after he managed to acquire two games: Bard's Tale and Neuromancer.  He played them to DEATH.  He became an avid computer RPGer.

I still remember something he said while playing Bards Tale.  I was trying to convince him to play in my D&D game I was getting ready to run.  He replied, "Why would anyone want to play D&D when you can just play it on the computer?"

The computer games delivered the entire experience he was after.  He never looked back.

Alittle off topic

MMO's are addictive.

I heard of a guy (Havent been able to varify this, but if its true its scary) had a friend who was a teacher.

The friend who was a teacher quit his job so he could play Worlds of Warcraft full time.

I understand enjoying MMO's but if you quit your job and choose MMO's over your job you need to get your priorities stright.

Quote from: Geek MessiahMeanwhile we have to come up with a way to get more gamers in the hobby.  It would be nice to be able to convert those MMO players into rpg players.  Show them that both are fun and they can do both.

For the forseeable future PnP still presents advantages.

The classic campaign reacts directly to the players, changes they make are true changes- and the players matter more and longer than they ever would online. They can also act with much greater freedom in a world that responds to them instead of presents to them.

This is one reason why I consider the Forge style games such a failure. They don't only throw this advantage away, they actively seek to remove it.


Also currently being face-to-face with people who are real-life friends beats online people you've never met.

And you have the ability to control the game mechanics, something that is impossible online.


I generally find that a good GM and group has no problems picking people way from MMO in their current state.

The question is if the hobby has enough good GMs and groups to stop the bleeding of gamers.