Quote from: SpikeIn the version I have you have four attributes, which are percentile rolled, that form the basis of everything else. You have skills, which are purely based on your attribute, maybe modified a bit (10% say) by being the right 'profession', you health is equal to your strength stat...

presto, complete game, more or less. The rules take up about three pages, the rest is 'setting'.

Cool to know

The Palladium version (The Deluxe Version I got for $5 and sold on Ebay for more) had a good bit of setting, equipment, traps, weapons and more.

It was really good and pretty easy to understand.   I am sure that would be a fun game to run, I just wonder if it's the kind of game you can sustain for awhile.

Quote from: RPGPundityou should teach the beginners from the point of view of what is actually popular where you are.

And I should also take my friend who likes Charles Dickens to see a modern action movie instead of even considering renting, say, Oliver Twist.

Yeah, right.

Quote from: Geek MessiahThe pool of gamers is shrinking.   Game industry insiders have said it "Ken Hite, GMS, Others" and you can say whatever you want but disputing facts provided by industry insiders is pointless.

As for the number of gamers who don't play D20 the number isn't as small as you think.   Even so this hobby with it's gamer pool shrinking on a constant basis really cannot afford to loose many gamers.

If you count the people who are playing World of Warcraft, the pool of gamers is expanding massively. The types of people interested in what Ken Hite and GMS have done is shrinking though. (i.e. the 90s is over). Which, is kinda a shame, because I kinda like both of those guys.

Quote from: Abyssal MawIf you count the people who are playing World of Warcraft, the pool of gamers is expanding massively. The types of people interested in what Ken Hite and GMS have done is shrinking though. (i.e. the 90s is over). Which, is kinda a shame, because I kinda like both of those guys.

Those are Computer RPGS which I don't count in the "pool of gamers" and neither do the industry people who are saying the pool is shrinking.

What they are refering to are people who play the pencil and paper rpgs.  They are shrinking because gamers are going off to do other things.

Interesting that you mention World of Warcraft because MMO's like that are part of the problem and where gamers are going.    But when you look at it a traditional rpg you have to purchase the items you need and then get a schedule together where gamers can get together.

With WOW you install the software, log in and play.   It's no wonder gamers are going to the easier way to game.

Quote from: gleichmanYou'd be hard pressed to prove that.

You just have to go to the Enworld and Wizards forums and count the activity. People who hate d20 certainly do rule here, and also rule at RPGnet and generally anywhere the focus is on commentary about "the hobby". But the point is- it's all commentary, and none of it matters.

In places where the membership actually talks about playing (like the comparison would be to Pyramid's GURPS forum), you can see whats going on a lot clearer. Enworld gets partial credit for it's rules forum and the massive, active play by post area.

Quote from: Abyssal MawYou just have to go to the Enworld and Wizards forums and count the activity. People who hate d20 certainly do rule here, and also rule at RPGnet and generally anywhere the focus is on commentary about "the hobby". But the point is- it's all commentary, and none of it matters.

I have seen plenty of D20 love on rpg.net.   Maybe there was a time where there was a great deal of hate but with the moderation at the level it is at rpg.net none of the moderators tollerate the d20 crapping that used to happen.

Quote from: Abyssal MawYou just have to go to the Enworld and Wizards forums and count the activity. People who hate d20 certainly do rule here, and also rule at RPGnet and generally anywhere the focus is on commentary about "the hobby". But the point is- it's all commentary, and none of it matters.

I've seen a bit of an upswing of d20 love on RPGnet. Which is a bit of a shock for me considering I've been part of RPGnet since the old "phorum" software. Its like while people elsewhere were burning out on D&D, people at RPGnet were getting over their kneejerk reactions and using the system.

Quote from: Geek MessiahThose are Computer RPGS which I don't count in the "pool of gamers" and neither do the industry people who are saying the pool is shrinking.

What they are refering to are people who play the pencil and paper rpgs.  They are shrinking because gamers are going off to do other things.

Interesting that you mention World of Warcraft because MMO's like that are part of the problem and where gamers are going.    But when you look at it a traditional rpg you have to purchase the items you need and then get a schedule together where gamers can get together.

With WOW you install the software, log in and play.   It's no wonder gamers are going to the easier way to game.

Well, theyre being brought in that way, sure. But I am suggesting that some of those people can become Tabletop gamers pretty easily, given the opportunity.

The "industry people" don't matter.

Yeah, it's easy to play World of Warcraft, and you can do it completely alone. But if your'e already liking the idea of playing in a fantasy world, and you get the idea of gear and hit points, your'e ripe for being brought in. And I know this because why? Because I got two players in my current campaign who sought out a demo I ran at the local gamestore, specifically interested in playing D&D after they got into Final Fantasy.

What you see as a "problem" I see as an awesome opportunity. I can give people the World of Warcraft experience, (linked quests, cool characters, gear, crafting, raids.. "instances") but I can make it much more awesome. I can personalize it. I can tailor fit it to their interests.

Of course the caveat is- theyre only going to go from World of Warcraft to (something like) D&D. Because theyre not playing to emote all over each other and ponder their navels. They want adventure and they want to build their characters.

Quote from: Abyssal MawYou just have to go to the Enworld and Wizards forums and count the activity.

Those numbers don't mean as much as one would wish. I for example visit EnWorld just to check up on things. I haven't playing D&D in decades and wouldn't touch D20 with a ten foot pole. But I could be counted as a D20 supporter by you.

Quote from: Geek MessiahI have seen plenty of D20 love on rpg.net.   Maybe there was a time where there was a great deal of hate but with the moderation at the level it is at rpg.net none of the moderators tollerate the d20 crapping that used to happen.

Oh I dont care if anyone hates it or loves it or anything. I just think it's all pointless. I will make fun of certain criticsms that I find nonsensical, though.

Quote from: Caesar SlaadI've seen a bit of an upswing of d20 love on RPGnet. Which is a bit of a shock for me considering I've been part of RPGnet since the old "phorum" software. Its like while people elsewhere were burning out on D&D, people at RPGnet were getting over their kneejerk reactions and using the system.

Again, with the moderation ramp up the crap that people used to get away with (Threadcrapping D20 threads, posting D20 Flames, Etc) arent tollerated anymore.

So the people who did that are either gone (by choice or not) or are minding their P's and Q's and not getting themselves banned from the forum.

Quote from: gleichmanThose numbers don't mean as much as one would wish. I for example visit EnWorld just to check upon on things. I haven't playing D&D in decades and wouldn't touch D20 with a ten foot pole. But I could be counted as a D20 supporter by you.

I would never tar you with such an association!

But seriously, I'd only count you if you were a prolific poster in the rules forum and the play by post area. Those are the only people who count because you can tell they are actually involved in regularly playing the game. Same thing with the Wizards boards.

Quote from: Abyssal MawOh I dont care if anyone hates it or loves it or anything. I just think it's all pointless. I will make fun of certain criticsms that I find nonsensical, though.

I understand.  For me as far as D20 is concerned I just dont play it and I dont talk about it 99% of the time.   it's only here I even talk about it.

Luckily for me I am in a large group of like minded people who will not play D20 so I can play the games I like and be happy.

Quote from: Geek MessiahLuckily for me I am in a large group of like minded people who will not play D20 so I can play the games I like and be happy.

I couldn't get anyone I know of who games to play D20 if I tried. They were too turned off by the common culture they encountered in the area when looking at rpgs.

Quote from: gleichmanThose numbers don't mean as much as one would wish. I for example visit EnWorld just to check up on things. I haven't playing D&D in decades and wouldn't touch D20 with a ten foot pole. But I could be counted as a D20 supporter by you.

Be that as it may, if you don't think that their is at least a qualitative correlation between the net memberships of WotC boards, ENWorld, RPGnet, and the forge and the online segment of those who are catered to by the respective topic areas of those boards, I rather think you are in denial.

Looking at sales figures (as they exist) also tell a similar story.