Anyone encounter a RPG that wasn't enjoyable to read, but rocked in actual play?
Quote from: Spinachcat;1053769Anyone encounter a RPG that wasn't enjoyable to read, but rocked in actual play?
Not an RPG, but plenty of adventures rock in play in inverse proportion to how enjoyable they are as reading matter. I thought Stonehell Dungeon's format was really odd when I first got it. It's definitely not designed for browsing pleasure. In play it's amazing.
I'm hard pressed to pick out of the games I've enjoyed running. D&D 4E, D&D 5E, Hero System (Champions and Fantasy, multiple editions), GURPs--they all fit that pattern. To a lesser extent, also D&D 3E and RQ (various editions)--a little better read, but not quite as much fun, too. AD&D 1E was a fun read at the time and fun to play. I'm not sure I'd enjoy reading it for the first time now. I'm leaving a bunch of games out that also fit the pattern. However, I vastly prefer that my rulebooks be reference materials, not reads. Any game that I've seen claimed as a really good read has sent me off screaming either due to the opacity of the system or no appreciation for the genre and/or subject matter. Ars Magica might be the only exception to that last part. I'm not sure, since I've never lasted in a campaign of it.
I would have to say Rolemaster. The text is mostly dry as dust, but the players liked it both back in the day, and again with a newer group a few years back (although I always house-rule it quite a bit).
T20, d20 Traveller. The way the combat system was written was confusing as Hell - but when you used it in play, it was very smooth. I think that d20 and D&D based systems have a hard time with modern and futuristic weapons and do not simulate them well, but T20 was able to handle them the best that I have found, once you got through the read.
For me, D&D 4E was one of the worst reads I had in an RPG. I remember getting the whole box set as a b-day present from the wife. I was excited, sat down, and opened the PHB.....My initial reaction was "What did they DO?!!" Followed by "NOOOOOOOOoooooo!" I was pretty pissed. No more charts. No more "aged" look of the pages and book. Gone were descriptive texts of the classes in lengthy paragraphs. It was filled with mini-boxes and colored coded gloop. Nope nope nope! I almost took the box to trade in.
But then I calmed down, took a bunch of deep breaths, and started to actually *read* the DMG. It was much better to start with that. I showed my group, to much of the same reaction I had. I said to give it a fair shake, make some characters using this new age "tool"...the Online Character Builder and we'll make a quick few games in a month. During the next two months They came out with the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide which had the Swordmage, Drow, and Dark Pact options. I ran a home-brew Necromancer lair for my two friends and an NPC they hired. They did well, making their way to the very end where they almost got killed from 1 ghost. The ghost killed the NPC in 1 turn, dropped the Ranger near the entrance, and the Dark Pact Warlock fled to safety to live another day. 1st adventure, nearly a TPK. But it was fun. We had fun and because we were very accustomed to miniatures, maps, and grid-like play from extensive 3.5 gameplay that wasn't much of a change for us.
Pretty much all of the World of Darkness games. (there are a few exceptions that go both ways.)
Quote from: Batman;1053787For me, D&D 4E was one of the worst reads I had in an RPG. I remember getting the whole box set as a b-day present from the wife. I was excited, sat down, and opened the PHB.....My initial reaction was "What did they DO?!!" Followed by "NOOOOOOOOoooooo!" I was pretty pissed. No more charts. No more "aged" look of the pages and book. Gone were descriptive texts of the classes in lengthy paragraphs. It was filled with mini-boxes and colored coded gloop. Nope nope nope! I almost took the box to trade in.
I remember buying 4e in 2008, opening the PHB to make a Wizard, and giving up within minutes - it was incomprehensible. Luckily the offline character builder came out in 2009, I was able to make a PC and learned to appreciate 4e. It can certainly be a fun game if used right but the early hardbacks are terrible, the PHB & MM especially. IME the PHB doesn't even get used as a reference much though.
Rifts main book. Poorly organized yet the art to me was evocative of the setting.
4th ed D&D is definitely up there.
Quote from: Trond;1053783I would have to say Rolemaster. The text is mostly dry as dust, but the players liked it both back in the day, and again with a newer group a few years back (although I always house-rule it quite a bit).
Back in the day, I spent hours upon hours reading volumes of RMSS text, loved every second of it.
I don't recognise that guy now. :D
Quote from: Spinachcat;1053769Anyone encounter a RPG that wasn't enjoyable to read, but rocked in actual play?
Most SPI RPGs.
Quote from: S'mon;1053795I remember buying 4e in 2008, opening the PHB to make a Wizard, and giving up within minutes - it was incomprehensible. Luckily the offline character builder came out in 2009, I was able to make a PC and learned to appreciate 4e. It can certainly be a fun game if used right but the early hardbacks are terrible, the PHB & MM especially. IME the PHB doesn't even get used as a reference much though.
Yeah, not exactly the best representative of what the system could do, lol. The Character Builder was really helpful early on, especially making characters past 1st level. What I do now is use the CB and then write down the info on the sheet. That way nothing is in pen and I dont have to reprint a new Sheet after 2-3 levels
4e D&D Gamma World: Hated the schizo writing of the damn thing as it swings between slapstick and horror and cant seem to make up its damn mind what it wants to be. Kept expecting to see the return of the BiPolarBear or the CannibalMutantLibratianBikerClowns.
But it presents the 4e D&D rules much better than 4e does and it feels more like a RPG than a board game then. Even with the pogs and the damn CCG.
Gumshoe: and any other pretentious "Lets "fix" stuff that was never broken in the first place" screeds. Fairly playable game once you jettison the garbage.
Fantasy Wargaming: Ive gone on at length about how much I utterly despise the writers of this RPG. The arrogance and pissing all over the reader and other writers and designers and then not even following through on their own screed and the great idea of a real world medieval setting RPG which they promptly toss out the window. argh! The game though is playable if rather simplistic.
The original edition of Aces & Eights is AMAZING to play, for what it's meant to do. Unfortunately, it's also terribly organized, and full of rules that only make sense when you pore through examples because some of the rules are only expressed in the examples and nowhere in the rule text itself!
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1053821Most SPI RPGs.
Once you get used to their format though it gets alot easier. Getting used to the format though is the trick. One bonus is if you are used to any SPIs board games then the format for their RPGs clicks. Especially for Universe.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1053821Most SPI RPGs.
SPI?
Masterbook was a pretty dry read, and led to the impression that it could be excessively crunchy/complicated
But it plays really well, and I still enjoy it.
Quote from: 3rik;1054256SPI?
Tactical boardgame and RPG publisher whose assets were acquired by TSR nee WotC.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulations_Publications,_Inc. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulations_Publications,_Inc.)
Quote from: Spinachcat;1053769Anyone encounter a RPG that wasn't enjoyable to read, but rocked in actual play?
Uh at that point, aren't you playing your own game?
I feel like palladium is the trope codifier here. Nearly everyone complains about the characteristics of the books themselves, but at the same time I rarely run into anyone that thinks playing it wasnt a total blast.
Quote from: VincentTakeda;1054377I feel like palladium is the trope codifier here. Nearly everyone complains about the characteristics of the books themselves, but at the same time I rarely run into anyone that thinks playing it wasnt a total blast.
Welp, you just found one of the 'rare' few.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1054304Uh at that point, aren't you playing your own game?
Not really. some RPGs are worded badly or just unpleasant to read the fluff or jargon. But once you cut off all the dross there is a playable game there. Case in point 4e D&D Gamma World.
Others are just plotted out in what at first feels like an esoteric manner like the SPI RPGs. And a few are just a mess in the order of the rules like the System 26 Metamorphosis alpha or the AH Runequest basic set.
Things that make reading the rules or refferencing the rules a nuisance or worse. But dont actually impact playing the game.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1054383Welp, you just found one of the 'rare' few.
heh-heh. Same here. Oddly I think the rules are, overall well laid out and the repeat format actually makes the books easier to read as you know the format and how its usually laid out. Similar to how once you get used to SPI and Metagamings format the games are not that hard to parse.
DMing Rifts on the other hand can be a real pain if you dont reign things in a little or alot. Its a really flexible system. But like gurps you need to know when to prune the tree. And Rifs tree totally eclipses Gurps.
Beyond the Supernatural though I had a blast DMing and After the Bomb played fairly well too.
Quote from: Silas1066;1054276Masterbook was a pretty dry read, and led to the impression that it could be excessively crunchy/complicated
But it plays really well, and I still enjoy it.
That's because Masterbook was a stripped-off TORG, which had a lot more flavor text originally. ;)
jg
Quote from: Omega;1054418heh-heh. Same here. Oddly I think the rules are, overall well laid out and the repeat format actually makes the books easier to read as you know the format and how its usually laid out. Similar to how once you get used to SPI and Metagamings format the games are not that hard to parse.
DMing Rifts on the other hand can be a real pain if you dont reign things in a little or alot. Its a really flexible system. But like gurps you need to know when to prune the tree. And Rifs tree totally eclipses Gurps.
Beyond the Supernatural though I had a blast DMing and After the Bomb played fairly well too.
My problem was trying to run the system as written during one of my rare forays into Heroes Unlimited. There was no system for stat checks under, I believe 16 for MOST stats. There was no perception style skill at the time, so spotting danger without Detect Ambush was problematic to say the least...
Palladium for my group at the time was unplayable without adding more and more stuff, to the point we made our own game system out of it.
As for badly written RPG's, if I can't make head or tails about what the game system is, or if I find it too complex, I don't use it. It might be the greatest thing ever, once you get past the convoluted crap, but if you can't hook me, I'm gone.
Stonehell like S'mon. While reading it, it just seemed ho hum, a big swords and sorcery prison with various generico enemies. However it really comes alive in play, it changed some players over to loving dungeon crawls.
It's not always true, but there can be a bit of an inverse relationship between "good read coffee table book" and actually decent in play.