Quote
On the contrary, the small minority (but extremely vocal and with a vast internet presence) are the companies that develop and sell these improv theater party games and their supporters. Evil Hat, the most successful storygame company by a wide margin, it's a tiny speck when compared to RPG publishers.
Same goes for the player base for these things: we're talking about 4, 5% at best when compared to the global scene. Of course, if you base your perception of adoption and acceptance for storygames on the average r/rpg or rpg.net response, they seem huge and the best next thing since the invention of dice. But the reality is different.

No you missed my point. If we speak about market share then honestly there are 5 rpgs: D&D 5e, Pathfinder, WoD, Warhammer and CoC. The end.
But that's not my point - my point is that PBTA and FITD are widely accepted both by industry professionals - RPG writers and producers, and by community (well community willing to discuss RPGs - hard to count all those silent voices) as RPGs. Sure different subtypes but still RPGs. Voices of opposition are minority within minority. Way less than 4,5%. Even most people hating those games accept them as subtype of RPGs. And that's it - their popularity is less important then.

Although I gonna say 4,5% for movement so young in market so dominated by juggernaut and few big bisons does not sound so bad. Like whole OSR is probably less than 10%.

And that's it for my defending storygames day - I'm definitely much more d100 skill based guy.

And you missed mine, twice. It doesn't matter if they are "widely accepted", especially by the community: PbtA and the like are objectively something vastly different from RPGs and cannot be considered as such. Who does that is wrong.
It's like saying American football, Australian football and Gaelic football are the same game because they're all "football".

QuoteIt's like saying American football, Australian football and Gaelic football are the same game because they're all "football".

That's comparison that goes against you.
Because various RPGs even normie ones are different games, not the same.
So yeah - RPGs are like team-ball games. Every one with separate own set of balls and own shape of field and rules.

American Football is like D&D 4e, and Gaelic Football is like Runequest

QuoteAnd you missed mine, twice. It doesn't matter if they are "widely accepted", especially by the community: PbtA and the like are objectively something vastly different from RPGs and cannot be considered as such. Who does that is wrong.

It's you who used industry as marker.
And GURPS and OD&D are also vastly different. This means nothing.

Quote from: Wrath of God on November 13, 2023, 07:29:58 PM

QuoteIt's like saying American football, Australian football and Gaelic football are the same game because they're all "football".

That's comparison that goes against you.
Because various RPGs even normie ones are different games, not the same.
So yeah - RPGs are like team-ball games. Every one with separate own set of balls and own shape of field and rules.

American Football is like D&D 4e, and Gaelic Football is like Runequest

I was thinking something similar. That they're all different games but all sports. Nobody is claiming PbtA is the same as D&D. They're just saying it's the same sort of thing.

I remember about 30 years ago one of the issues of the day was "Is cheerleading a sport?" And the pro-cheerleading argument was that cheerleaders were athletes--not only that, but it's more athletically demanding than bowling or golf.

And I think the problem is it assumes that athleticism is the defining characteristic of sports. It's an easy mistake to make but clearly wrong. I mean there are plenty of jobs that are athletically demanding that we don't call sports. I think what actually characterizes sports is something that's hard to pin down but probably not unrelated to the word "sportsmanship" which seems to carry with it some implied values.

Similarly, with RPGs, a lot of people prematurely assume definitions that sound good on the surface but aren't so obvious when you start asking questions. And it may be difficult to pin down exactly what is or isn't an RPG.

I don't know enough about PbtA to render an opinion on that specifically either way as to whether or not it's really an RPG. But I would say, if you can do it (or something similar) in AD&D 1st Edition by the book, then you certainly can't say it's not an RPG. And 1E's got a lot of things in there that a lot of gamers just aren't aware of. And in my opinion, it's the big tent RPG.

In fact, I usually upset a lot of the indie people back in the day because just about every big idea the indie movement put forth, I know of at least some GM or group doing it back in the day with plain ol' D&D, and that if I really gave enough of a shit to do so, I could probably even track down documentary evidence of such things being mentioned in Dragon magazine or some third-party product.