Quote from: Spinachcat;445898DM certification is a good thing because it would involve training and passing some sort of testing, thus convention players would know their GM had some proven ability.

It means nothing for home stuff, but when you just paid $1000 for GenCon (pass, food, hotel, travel, etc), it would be cool to know that the GM at your table had some level of experience worth your vaction time.

LOL!! You must be great fun at parties.

Quote from: Spinachcat;445898Also, it would be great for noob GMs if the certification training actually gave them lots of good stuff and then required them to demonstrate they now have a clue at the table.   That would only help the hobby.

Oh yeah, certainly. We have far too many people wanting to DM now. We gotta weed out the riff-raff. Are you being serious?

Quote from: Spinachcat;445898Not exactly.  Early RPGA was all about tournament play which was quite challenging and required you to be more than an asshole.   A good team of D&Ders at a national tourney at GenCon had won many tourneys before and were very good at teamwork, puzzles, roleplay and combat.  

So in regards to D&D tourney play there really was a level of "mastery"

Hahahaha.  OK confess. What level are you?

Such an organization exists.

Has no one here heard of the HMGMA?

During 3rd edition (and 3.5) you actually did have to be certified to DM for RPGA events (or vouched for by the Senior Dm at an event), and there were two levels. There was Herald level and Master level.

The process was basically an online test where you had to answer questions about the rules (some of them kinda difficult, for example, arriving at the exact DC for a grappling character (stats given) who wants to drag his grappler with him as he advances towards some spot that is X number of feet away). Like you had to work out the exact DC. Or knowing the rules for chases. Some of the questions were actually not rules-related at all but had to do with managing players. For example if a player is being a dick to another player and you have to step in.

This was eliminated for 4th edition, by the way.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;445973During 3rd edition (and 3.5) you actually did have to be certified to DM for RPGA events (or vouched for by the Senior Dm at an event), and there were two levels. There was Herald level and Master level.

The process was basically an online test where you had to answer questions about the rules (some of them kinda difficult, for example, arriving at the exact DC for a grappling character (stats given) who wants to drag his grappler with him as he advances towards some spot that is X number of feet away). Like you had to work out the exact DC. Or knowing the rules for chases. Some of the questions were actually not rules-related at all but had to do with managing players. For example if a player is being a dick to another player and you have to step in.

This was eliminated for 4th edition, by the way.

That's fucking hilarious. I never thought anyone would actually be arguing FOR certification.

So were there RPGA-fanboys who started complaining bitterly that now the RPGA has "No standards", and that being an RPGA GM doesn't "mean anything anymore" since they dropped the certification requirement?  Please tell me someone threw a hissy-fit!

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;445987That's fucking hilarious. I never thought anyone would actually be arguing FOR certification.

So were there RPGA-fanboys who started complaining bitterly that now the RPGA has "No standards", and that being an RPGA GM doesn't "mean anything anymore" since they dropped the certification requirement?  Please tell me someone threw a hissy-fit!

RPGPundit

Oh it was around during early 4E too. WOTC held the RPGA adventure materials hostage and only "Herald level and higher" DMs could get them.
I went online and took the test just to be able to access the adventures.

They were not worth the hassle.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;445989Oh it was around during early 4E too. WOTC held the RPGA adventure materials hostage and only "Herald level and higher" DMs could get them.
I went online and took the test just to be able to access the adventures.

They were not worth the hassle.

Were the LFR modules that crappy?

(I haven't seen many of them).

Quote from: RPGPundit;445987That's fucking hilarious. I never thought anyone would actually be arguing FOR certification.

So were there RPGA-fanboys who started complaining bitterly that now the RPGA has "No standards", and that being an RPGA GM doesn't "mean anything anymore" since they dropped the certification requirement?  Please tell me someone threw a hissy-fit!

RPGPundit

Were there? Definitely. Most of these guys have moved on now.

Exploder- you are technically wrong on that- well- to a degree.

At the birth of LFR the policy was reversed. However, the system did not keep up. I think it was several months before people could get through the crazy adventure ordering system (around the same time they delineated public from private play) and you still had to "sanction" a game in order to order it. You never needed the test.

Trade Secret: The links were always open. If you knew the link to an adventure you could just download it without even logging in. And the links were "guessable". So if you knew the link to download CORM1-1, you could get MOON1-4 just by changing the word in the link.

Right now you can pretty much download all of the Living Realms adventures at http://livingforgottenrealms.com

Edit: Here's the archive of everything: http://www.livingforgottenrealms.com/adventures.html

The HackMaster Association spoofed the RPGA by having new HackMaster 4th Edition GMs pass an "Open GM Book" test given out by the HMRA(HackMaster Retailers Association) Members, i.e. GameStores.

It was extremely simple and I don't know of anyone that ever "Failed" it but that was back in the day when the HMA was setup to;

1) Spoof the RPGA

and

B) Make sure that the GMs actually had the GMG and were smart enough to use the index.

There was no money involved, other than paying the regular dues of the HMA...

However, you did get a nifty HMGMA Certificate and a lapel pin and a couple of HM GM Coupons to use during your game...

Quote from: Exploderwizard;445971LOL!! You must be great fun at parties.

I am!

Quote from: Exploderwizard;445971We have far too many people wanting to DM now. We gotta weed out the riff-raff. Are you being serious?

Very serious.

"Certification" would not be about weeding anyone out.  And as I said, it would not really be about home games.  It would be for conventions, and possibly game stores and gaming clubs.

Again, not about exclusion of GMs.

It would just be GM training and some acknowledgement you took the course and paid attention enough to learn the material.  

You can take a Cupcake Chef course at a bakery in LA.  You get a little diploma at the end.  Does this invalidate anyone else from making cupcakes?  Does it mean these certified chefs make the best cupcakes?  Nope.

However, it does mean these people took the time to learn about cupcakes and hopefully bring some extra knowledge to the kitchen thanks to their willingness to learn.

One of the biggest complaints at game conventions, especially the big nationals like Origins and GenCon, is paying a wad of cash and then getting a suckass GM.   I sympathize with those people.  When I was in Mexico, I had three terrific tours and one crappy one.  I got my money back for the crappy one, but I could not get back that vacation day.  

A GM certification could be marked with a symbol next to the GM's name in the convention booklet.  It would not stop non-certified GMs from running events, but it would give players some extra sense of security when signing up for events AND it would fill the tables for those certified GMs.

BTW, I have seen conventions that have exclusive GM groups with reputations for quality and prospective GMs have to test into their membership.   These groups advertise their events with the caveat that their GMs have been vetted and their games fill up.

Quote from: Spinachcat;446006A GM certification could be marked with a symbol next to the GM's name in the convention booklet.  It would not stop non-certified GMs from running events, but it would give players some extra sense of security when signing up for events AND it would fill the tables for those certified GMs.

BTW, I have seen conventions that have exclusive GM groups with reputations for quality and prospective GMs have to test into their membership.   These groups advertise their events with the caveat that their GMs have been vetted and their games fill up.

It may be the British cynic in me but I can't help but suspect that people willing to take some sort of ego-massaging certification exam for what is basically playing a game would be a bit arsey.

Quote from: jibbajibba;446009It may be the British cynic in me but I can't help but suspect that people willing to take some sort of ego-massaging certification exam for what is basically playing a game would be a bit arsey.

Or just elitist pricks.

Quote from: Spinachcat;446006One of the biggest complaints at game conventions, especially the big nationals like Origins and GenCon, is paying a wad of cash and then getting a suckass GM.  

Machete don't pay to play tabletop rpgs.

Quote from: Spinachcat;446006I am!



Very serious.

"Certification" would not be about weeding anyone out.  And as I said, it would not really be about home games.  It would be for conventions, and possibly game stores and gaming clubs.

Again, not about exclusion of GMs.

It would just be GM training and some acknowledgment you took the course and paid attention enough to learn the material.  

You can take a Cupcake Chef course at a bakery in LA.  You get a little diploma at the end.  Does this invalidate anyone else from making cupcakes?  Does it mean these certified chefs make the best cupcakes?  Nope.

However, it does mean these people took the time to learn about cupcakes and hopefully bring some extra knowledge to the kitchen thanks to their willingness to learn.

One of the biggest complaints at game conventions, especially the big nationals like Origins and GenCon, is paying a wad of cash and then getting a suckass GM.   I sympathize with those people.  When I was in Mexico, I had three terrific tours and one crappy one.  I got my money back for the crappy one, but I could not get back that vacation day.  

A GM certification could be marked with a symbol next to the GM's name in the convention booklet.  It would not stop non-certified GMs from running events, but it would give players some extra sense of security when signing up for events AND it would fill the tables for those certified GMs.

BTW, I have seen conventions that have exclusive GM groups with reputations for quality and prospective GMs have to test into their membership.   These groups advertise their events with the caveat that their GMs have been vetted and their games fill up.

I agree with this. What prompted me to get involved with the RPGA in the first place was having played in several utterly awful D&D games (followed by one amazing game DMed by a guy named Jay Babcock).

It took some time for me to mull that over- does the one great game make up for the really poor ones? How much of this experience relies on having a decent DM. I think a lot of it does.

So.. realizing that I could do it much better than most of the DMs out there, I decided to start volunteering to shows I was already going to.
 I started out volunteering for 1 or 2 slots, moved up to 4 when I found out it covered your badge price, and then after a while I was doing 7.


Since I like DMing and I know my participation actually results in 6 other people getting a great game out of it, I felt like I was really doing a good thing, for each slot I volunteered for.


There are still terrible DMs out there at the big shows. There's no doubt about that. I think DDXP is one of the best shows (you don't go to that show unless you really want to play some D&D).

GenCon is amongst the toughest, because certain (poor/unskilled DMs) people sign on to that one just to be part of it, but don't really put much effort in. And there's high volume and a loud room.

Last year at GenCon was the first year I skipped volunteering because I was bringing my girlfriend for the first time, and I wanted to be there to show her around. It worked out ok- I DM'd a couple of things "under the radar" for freinds and pick up games anyway, and ended up drafted into DMing an open slot anyway.

Certification as a DM really isn't about showing off, it's just a pretty good way for organizers to tell that the DM knows the system enough to run it. When you want to field 200 DMs at a 1000 table event I can see how that would be useful.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;446014Certification as a DM really isn't about showing off, it's just a pretty good way for organizers to tell that the DM knows the system enough to run it. When you want to field 200 DMs at a 1000 table event I can see how that would be useful.

A monkey could pass DM certification. Its just a way for elitists to walk around like they have an extra 5' of pole shoved up their ass.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;446017A monkey could pass DM certification. Its just a way for elitists to walk around like they have an extra 5' of pole shoved up their ass.

It is an open book test, so it isn't hard. Master level was harder- if you got a single question wrong I think it booted you out of the test and you had to wait for another day to try and retake it.

You're probably just frothing and not looking for an actual conversation at this point, but anyhow.

I think that the test probably focused on the wrong things and tended to be about letter-of-the-rule reference (entirely subjective tests like the DC for a grappled character attempting to drag the grappler and hit someone else with his free hand one). At the end of the exercise, and given the various variables you were supposed to come up with a multiple choice answer of what the DC was 15, 16, 18, 21..whatever.

The problem is-(in my purely hypothetical situation).. Maybe 21 is the right answer, or maybe it's too high.. but I can't imagine any factor making that much of a difference between 15 and 18. 3rd Edition was all about applying the exact formula to get the exact numerical answer. There was a guy named John Cooper at Enworld who used to specialize in stuff like this on things like Monster Manual reviews- "the Ac of the Flarblebeast should have been 15 not 16. The Str is meant to be 11, not 10. Hit Points should come out to 65, NOT 67... DOES WOTC EVEN REVIEW THESE THINGS??!!"

At the beginning of Living Realms we really wanted to figure out some way to somehow make DMs better. How do you do it? Incentive programs? Seminars? The current "standard RPGA DM style" actually dates back to AD&D2e and still exists today: it's very formulaic. It involves reading aloud the presentation parts and then running the encounter parts. The concept of story is usually given huge importance- "the STORY is important", but the story is always about the campaign, or possibly the NPCs, never the players.

Practical skills are also of limited worth because DMs are "born" more than they are made. Some people are just good at it from the start--, personable, quick-witted and able to create a fun experience - in any number of myriad ways..(I've had great games with funny DMs, serious DMs, super-competitive DMs, experiementing DMs, thespian DMs..whatever)  and some people are just always going to suck, no matter what they do.. because they lack some kind of intrinsic personality trait or ability (I'm not sure what it is, really). And I'm not sure that trait can be taught.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;446035You're probably just frothing and not looking for an actual conversation at this point, but anyhow.

Its cool. I have actually been chuckling about this, I'm not angry about it at all. The concept is just silly. I could only get so angry after all, I AM a Herald level DM. :-)