TheRPGSite

Elric and Elfquest spring to mind immediately.  Traveller.  God damn guys!  Vector math?  Really?!  is 2e AD&D now "old school"?  Because I dislike that one too.  I never cared for "BECMI" D&D.  

Fantasy Wargaming by Bruce Galloway, but I think it's pretty much universal - everyone dislikes that one.

Multimondes, a failed French attempt at a Traveller-type sci-fi game.

Does "Powers & Perils" count as old school? (egad what a mess).

Hmm. This is a much tougher one to answer.

I never liked Basic D&D, the one that paralleled AD&D and came in boxed sets. Mostly it was because I disliked the lack of good and evil alignments, which is a superficial thing, and the way races were also classes, which is more substantial.

I was badly disappointed by Star Frontiers when it was released. The lack of starship combat rules in the basic set, and having to buy Knight Hawks to get them, really took the wind out of the sails for SF in my gaming group.

Quote from: ColonelHardisson;401848Hmm. This is a much tougher one to answer.

I never liked Basic D&D, the one that paralleled AD&D and came in boxed sets. Mostly it was because I disliked the lack of good and evil alignments, which is a superficial thing, and the way races were also classes, which is more substantial.

I was badly disappointed by Star Frontiers when it was released. The lack of starship combat rules in the basic set, and having to buy Knight Hawks to get them, really took the wind out of the sails for SF in my gaming group.

See I thought Star Frontiers was rad and I liked the support it got in Dragon; I wished I'd gotten Knight Hawks.  I too was irked by the lack of star ship support from the get-go though.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;401843Elric and Elfquest spring to mind immediately.  Traveller.  God damn guys!  Vector math?  Really?!  is 2e AD&D now "old school"?  Because I dislike that one too.  I never cared for "BECMI" D&D.  

Fantasy Wargaming by Bruce Galloway, but I think it's pretty much universal - everyone dislikes that one.

hmmm...Elric,Elfquest,Trav. and Fantasy Wargaming all made my Favorite "old school" list in the recent thread...the magic/religious (unified field approach?) rules in FW are so full of cool ideas that have yet to be surpassed IMO, though the system as written is hard to grasp.Just had to comment on your selection.

Now in regards to this thread..least fave."old school" in no particular order.

Powers & Perils
Space Opera
WOD crapolla...et. al
D&D 3rd ed. (Does this qualify as OS?)
Battle Tech RPG

Quote from: skofflox;401850D&D 3rd ed. (Does this qualify as OS?)

LOL. Not to me, no.

Quote from: Benoist;401851LOL. Not to me, no.

Yeah... :o I was stretching just to get that in! ;)

Rolemaster. Character generation feels like a horrible, boorish chore. But if you axed the advantages and disadvantages, and performed some radical surgery on the skill list (reducing it by 50%, at very least), I might be persuaded to try it. Which is wh BTW is what MERP did, and what I've heard HARP does, so I'll gladly play MERP and try HARP.

And I've never read or played Chivalry & Sorcery (or Bushido), but what little I've heard didn't particularly thrill me (though I grudgingly admit that statting out from Balder to the Virgin Mary is kind of awesome). :D

Quote from: thedungeondelver;401849See I thought Star Frontiers was rad and I liked the support it got in Dragon; I wished I'd gotten Knight Hawks.  I too was irked by the lack of star ship support from the get-go though.

Yeah, the game wasn't awful, but my group was big into starships. To us, that was an instant dealbreaker. I recall how we tore through the SF box, and the resulting collective "WTF?!?" as we realized that starship combat rules were not present. By the time the KH box appeared, our disgust had turned to apathy for the entire game. We went back to our Rube Goldberg system cobbled together from D&D, Gamma World, Expedition to the Barrier Peaks, and Traveller.

Quote from: ColonelHardisson;401865Yeah, the game wasn't awful, but my group was big into starships. To us, that was an instant dealbreaker. I recall how we tore through the SF box, and the resulting collective "WTF?!?" as we realized that starship combat rules were not present. By the time the KH box appeared, our disgust had turned to apathy for the entire game. We went back to our Rube Goldberg system cobbled together from D&D, Gamma World, Expedition to the Barrier Peaks, and Traveller.

Yeah, the few times we tried to do starship stuff in SF we just treated ships like huge robots and assumed hexes were in km instead of m, and other things I can't recall that we did to make stuff "work".

We did however have oodles of fun when the power armor articles came out in The Dragon! :D

Quote from: ColonelHardisson;401848I was badly disappointed by Star Frontiers when it was released. The lack of starship combat rules in the basic set, and having to buy Knight Hawks to get them, really took the wind out of the sails for SF in my gaming group.

I was very bummed about that, too, and when Knight Hawks came out, I was really disappointed with that as well. It seemed very flat and not space opera at all (I was really never much of a hard sci-fi guy, especially in a setting with giant shapeshifting amoeboids).

Also, MERP was an object of much scorn in my group.

Marvel Super Heroes
Top Secret
Twilight 2000
Star Frontiers
D&D / AD&D
Traveller
Space Opera
Aftermath (which we labeled "forever math")

T&T - combat is way too abstract for anything other than solitaire play plus there's no way that adding up 50 d6's is either fast or easy.

Rolemaster - I couldn't even get through making a character without getting tired and quit.  Also, triple digit math is too hard for my brain late at night.

Runequest - the whole magic system rubbed me wrong.  I don't want everyone to cast spells.  If I wanted that, I'd play 4e.  Oh, and the ducks.

Chivalry & Sorcery - good lord was that complicated.  I had actual nightmares after reading the rulebook.

Quote from: Insufficient Metal;401868Also, MERP was an object of much scorn in my group.

I'm very torn when it comes to MERP. The game system just didn't fit the setting at all, but the supplements and adventures were generally very good. They were pretty well-researched, even the ones that went off the rails. I like them enough that I wouldn't hesitate to adapt them for use with another game, and the percentile system makes that fairly easy for NPCs and magic items.

Quote from: mhensley;401871T&T - combat is way too abstract for anything other than solitaire play plus there's no way that adding up 50 d6's is either fast or easy.

Awww. I love T&T, though maybe since I started gaming with it, and in the Calculator Age. If the monster gets 51 dice, just roll 3 dice x 17.
Plus in the solos you soon get so many Combat Adds that you usually just kill monsters automatically, without having to roll.

Well, I think that Traveller is boring as hell. And I've tried every version except the latest. New Era actually had a cool premise mired in craptastic rules.

But GURPS is certainly my least favorite system from the days of old. And that's saying something with Palladium being in the mix.

I might have said D&D (any/all) at one time but I don't have any animosity toward it anymore. In fact I like it.

So the only old game I really hate is Rhand: Morningstar Missions. It was a total waste of money, not only complex but incomplete. I'd have been better off with Sword's Path: Glory; at least then I could have had a more complete package.

I can work up "peeved" against Ysgarth because I paid for the game in person at a convention, took the first book home with a promise the publisher would send the other two, and never heard from them again. On the other hand I liked the rules that I got, and although I never played the game it influenced my thinking.

Oh, I also hate World Action and Adventure. Truly not worth the paper it was printed on.

Terrible:
Powers and Perils
The Sci-Fi furry FGU game

Boring:
Boot Hill
Star Frontiers

oD&D always gave me issues. AD&D was Byzantine enough that while I could dislike the mechanics I could find settings to enjoy. And entirely far too many 90's RPGs that had no basis in system logic and/or had settings so cryptic as to result in endless head scratching. Nephilim, Brave New World, Tinker's Damn, etc always left a bad taste in my mouth. Earlier editions of HERO also bothered, but 4th and the BBB did much turn me around.

Tunnels&Trolls. Exciting historical document (although Monsters! Monsters! is the more interesting one), but the super-minimalistic rules and tongue in cheek approach are a turnoff. OD&D didn't try to be all-comprehensive, but at least it advocated complex simulation. If I wanted an old school minimal system, I would probably like Advanced Fighting Fantasy more (and Titan is a helluva world guide, especially at the age of twelve).

Some aspects of Gamma World also bother me - again, a bit too tongue in cheek, and lacking a serious mode (this (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_DSs2bX13hVc/Se6Kcy0i0LI/AAAAAAAAA7g/raT9XT1d2I0/s400/GWcover.gif), not this (http://cache.io9.com/assets/resources/2008/03/leporinoid.gif)). Axe Mental on the K&K board (http://www.knights-n-knaves.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7328) has proposed that TSR should have done a straightforward AD&D-level game with similar trade dress and all:

Quote from: Axe MentalImagine the PH cover with guys carrying laser rifles instead of swords around and an idol of some alien God, or maybe some crashed ship on a cool planet with weird purple and blue plants (hard cover by Tramp). And the same cover dress (in other words, it would have been three new books that had the same cover style and paper and black and white artwork as the 3 core books -nothing slick or soft).

That's the science fiction game I am missing grom the old school palette - neither Traveller-like realistic nor GW- or Star Frontiers-like cheese, just "adventurer fantasy" for spaceships and lasers.

Quote from: Melan;401918That's the science fiction game I am missing grom the old school palette - neither Traveller-like realistic nor GW- or Star Frontiers-like cheese, just "adventurer fantasy" for spaceships and lasers.

The game you're looking for sounds a lot like Starships & Spacemen (//www.goblinoidgames.com/spacemen.html).

Thank you. I will need to look into it. :)

AD&D1 as played by "old schoolers".  In other words: FATAL.
Paranoia
Gamma World 3rd Edition
Robotech
TMNT
Star Frontiers
GURPS

I didn't have the money to buy every game that came out pre 1990 so I missed most of the really bad ones.
 
Star Frontiers really disappointed me.  I was psyched for D&D SF.  I got silly species, a setting style that had been done many times before, and incomplete rules.
 
Rolemaster defined tedious gaming for me.
 
T&T is alright but I don't like the group combat and or the advancement.
 
Not quite old school to me but Rifts was "Really, you've gotta be kidding me."  It wasn't the gonzo and I could even accept the poor setting with unbelievable bad guys.  The mechanics were obviously crap from the initial read through.  Why have all these character choices when half of them will be splattered by 1 pt of megadamage?
 
Also not quite old school but Twilight 2000 and some of the other GDW games from the same time demonstrated that attempting too much realism destroys a game by slowing it to a crawl.  Who was driving the development then?  Chadwick?  But their setting ideas were largely decent.

Quote from: Nicephorus;401928Also not quite old school but Twilight 2000 and some of the other GDW games from the same time demonstrated that attempting too much realism destroys a game by slowing it to a crawl.  Who was driving the development then?  Chadwick?  But their setting ideas were largely decent.

 GDW seemed to do that a bit around that time... You had great setting stuff like space 1889, but with rulessets that didn't seem all that thought through. Or at least overly complicated for the genre by todays standards.

 Of couse now people are repeating the mistakes of the past by giving space 1889 the savage worlds treatment.

Quote from: Nicephorus;401928Also not quite old school but Twilight 2000 and some of the other GDW games from the same time demonstrated that attempting too much realism destroys a game by slowing it to a crawl.  Who was driving the development then?  Chadwick?  But their setting ideas were largely decent.

All "realistic" post-nuclear games from that era suffer from the same mistake: an obsessive dedication to niggling detail, and the desire to model all of them by the table. After all, creating a game that didn't account for the differences between 7.62x51mm NATO rounds and the 7.62x39mm Russkie surplus could get your Ronnie Raygun™ medal revoked.

Quote from: Melan;401936All "realistic" post-nuclear games from that era suffer from the same mistake: an obsessive dedication to niggling detail, and the desire to model all of them by the table. After all, creating a game that didn't account for the differences between 7.62x51mm NATO rounds and the 7.62x39mm Russkie surplus could get your Ronnie Raygun™ medal revoked.

Yep.  Though it didn't even have to be post apocalyptic.  Most modern and futuristic games from that era had super detailed tables trying to model differences between weapons.  I came from a wargaming background but it was still too much for me.

Quote from: Gabriel2;401924AD&D1 as played by "old schoolers".  In other words: FATAL.

What. The. Fuck? :rolleyes:

I think he was referring more to all the tables, AC vs. armor mods, surprise, etc. not the vaginal/rectal circumference of the Silver Princess stuff.

I never liked AD&D that much... it was only through the psychedelic prism of Arduin that I was able to stand it as long as I did.

At one point I went into a 'realism' phase where I adored stuff like Phoenix Command and GDW's crunchier stuff... but I got over it.
I did like the Rhand setting though... some of the Living Steel supplements are fun.

Quote from: Simlasa;401988I did like the Rhand setting though

Of course you're a fan of Rhand, as your avatar attests. :D

Quote from: The Butcher;401993Of course you're a fan of Rhand, as your avatar attests. :D

:rotfl:

Quote from: The Butcher;401993Of course you're a fan of Rhand, as your avatar attests. :D

No, actually... I'm not at all... I'm just following Akrasia's lead in putting up an avatar of a philosopher I revile.

Quote from: Simlasa;402003No, actually... I'm not at all... I'm just following Akrasia's lead in putting up an avatar of a philosopher I revile.

I for one welcome our new reviled philosopher overlords.

Seriously, though, what is this Rhand setting anyway?

If it counts as old-school, I'll second whoever said Robotech. I don't have anything against Palladium in general, but that game left a bad taste. Impulse buy of the core book when it first appeared, since I enjoyed the cartoons, followed by a let down as the game didn't seem to offer either the soap-opera element or a really effective game of space-maneuver-combat.

Quote from: The Butcher;402006I for one welcome our new reviled philosopher overlords.

Seriously, though, what is this Rhand setting anyway?

Rhand is a setting for Leading Edge games power-armor/space RPG 'Living Steel'.
:)

At age 13 I expected GANGBUSTERS to be the answer to a fevered prayer before I bought it. Unfortunately, it proved to be bland, boring and dry as toast.

Lord Hobie

The Indiana Jones RPG.

Quote from: The Butcher;402006I for one welcome our new reviled philosopher overlords.

Seriously, though, what is this Rhand setting anyway?

Guys, her last name was spelled as " Rand " since it was lifted from the name of a typewriter brand or model that she liked when she started writing in America.


- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;402053Guys, her last name was spelled as " Rand " since it was lifted from the name of a typewriter brand or model that she liked when she started writing in America.


- Ed C.

Geesh..Its a joke man...a play on words. :rolleyes:
Rhand is a fictional setting for a Leading Edge Games RPG...

Quote from: Simlasa;402003No, actually... I'm not at all... I'm just following Akrasia's lead in putting up an avatar of a philosopher I revile.

Heh.  I think you misunderstood me (http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=402024&postcount=62).  :)

Quote from: Koltar;402053Guys, her last name was spelled as " Rand " since it was lifted from the name of a typewriter brand or model that she liked when she started writing in America.

:rolleyes:  (This would be too easy...)

Quote from: Zachary The First;402051The Indiana Jones RPG.

Yes, that was quite bad.  No rules for character creation were included, because TSR assumed that everyone would be thrilled to play the amazing non-Indy characters like "Short-Round".  :rolleyes:

Also deeply irritating was FGU's Space Opera.  I think that I spent a full month in 1982 trying to figure out how to make a character.

I can't think of any other RPGs that I either actually read or played that I disliked from the pre-1990 era.  I just didn't play games that did not appeal to me!

I have a suspician that the Indiana Jones rpg was like the ET Atari game in that it was extremely rushed to meet a movie schedule and the name was supposed to sell it.  I've never even read it as it died so quickly but I've never heard anything good said about it.

AD&D.  The rules just never made any sense to me, there seemed no logic at all.

Years later, with greater understanding, I still think it's a fucking mess.

Others vary and it has definite fans, I wish them joy of their games.

Chivalry & Sorcery.  Made Aftermath! look like Risus.

Rifts. Seriously, what the fuck?

I did not care for Champions.

Quote from: Akrasia;402093Heh.  I think you misunderstood me (http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=402024&postcount=62).  :)

No, not really... just having a bit of fun... and any excuse to put a bag on Ms. Rhand/Rand is good enough for me.

Quote from: D-503;402163AD&D.  The rules just never made any sense to me, there seemed no logic at all.

I felt the same... I ran it for a while but it never came anywhere near intuitive... but somehow the simplicity of OD&D clones have been putting a draw on me lately.

I don't think Torg counts as 'old school' but I really didn't care for it's approach to mash-up... it seemed too constrained.

Quote from: D-503;402163AD&D.  The rules just never made any sense to me, there seemed no logic at all.

Years later, with greater understanding, I still think it's a fucking mess.

The rules definitely are a mess, as I've come to realize in my second session. It takes at least 2,000 gold pieces a week to train up to the next level, usually takes two weeks or more.

And that's at first level. Considering you get EP for gold (1:1 basis, usually), and many classes require 2000 or less EP to get to second level, there's a bit of a problem here (above and beyond living expenses and other details). I'm pretty sure I didn't start using the training rules until 4th level, though, back when I played this in the 80s.

I managed to find my 2nd Edition PHB, still looking for the 2nd edition DMG, hoping it adds some clarity to what the 'intended' rules were, as there are serious issues in RAW here.

That said, still having loads of fun playing the old clunker.

"Hit Thaag In Face With Rock" never set well with me. "Kick Thaag In Nuts", on the other hand - or foot - was a bundle of joy!

-clash

Then there's the old school game that produces bundles of joy. Always a winner, in my book. Or cave wall, if you will.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;402189Then there's the old school game that produces bundles of joy. Always a winner, in my book. Or cave wall, if you will.

Back in real old skool days, bundles of joy came from the Gods. Coed Wrestling had nothing to do with it. Did you know that it was Krunk who came up with the name "Bundles of Joy"? We laughed and laughed! Good old Krunk! He was a riot until they made him "Thaag For A Day".

-clash

Quote from: flyingmice;402187"Hit Thaag In Face With Rock" never set well with me. "Kick Thaag In Nuts", on the other hand - or foot - was a bundle of joy!

-clash

"Drag Thaag Woman to Dark Corner of Cave" unnecessary, brought negative attention from whole rest of tribe, nearly ruin hobby.  Still fun to play.

HERO

...

Hrm...


That might be about it. I didn't ever really "hate" any system - guess I don't run to strong emotions.

Quote from: D-503;402163AD&D.  The rules just never made any sense to me, there seemed no logic at all.Years later, with greater understanding, I still think it's a fucking mess...

At this point, I was thinking "Dumbass..."

Quote...Others vary and it has definite fans, I wish them joy of their games...

Then I thought, "...but a polite dumbass..."

Quote...Chivalry & Sorcery.  Made Aftermath! look like Risus...

Then I thought,"...I still have a nostalgic attachment to the impenetrable and arcane C&S system, but goddamn if the polite dumbass doesn't have a point..."

QuoteRifts. Seriously, what the fuck?

Then I thought, "Holy shit, the dumbass is my brother, after all!"  :D

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;402254At this point, I was thinking "Dumbass..."


Then I thought, "...but a polite dumbass..."


Then I thought,"...I still have a nostalgic attachment to the impenetrable and arcane C&S system, but goddamn if the polite dumbass doesn't have a point..."


Then I thought, "Holy shit, the dumbass is my brother, after all!"  :D

Back when I was younger and stupider, I was quite angry about AD&D.  Fuck knows why, nodoby was forcing me to play it.

If invited to play it I'd likely have made some comment about how it didn't make sense and nobody in their right mind would play it etc.

Nowadays, I'd ask if there were any house rules in effect and I'd reach for the dice.  Given the right group I'm sure I'd have a ball.

Hopefully I'd get a Magic User.  The magic in AD&D is to be fair very evocative.

Quote from: D-503;402410Back when I was younger and stupider, I was quite angry about AD&D.  Fuck knows why, nodoby was forcing me to play it.

If invited to play it I'd likely have made some comment about how it didn't make sense and nobody in their right mind would play it etc.

Nowadays, I'd ask if there were any house rules in effect and I'd reach for the dice.  Given the right group I'm sure I'd have a ball.

Hopefully I'd get a Magic User.  The magic in AD&D is to be fair very evocative.

As I grow old, I find harder and harder to hate games to the point to say outright 'No' to play them. Running them may be a different question, of course.

Hating is usually a waste of neurons.

Quote from: Imperator;402427As I grow old, I find harder and harder to hate games to the point to say outright 'No' to play them. Running them may be a different question, of course.

Hating is usually a waste of neurons.

Precisely how I've felt for some time now. I'll play almost anything, running is another matter entirely. And "hating" a game? WTF? Maybe RaHoWa or FATAL, but really, honestly hating a nice, regular game like GURPS or D&D or whatever? I just don't get it.

I'm done with the hate.

I thought this was about games you dislike and not games that you hate?

While I dislike certain games, I've never actually played any games that were truly hate worthy.

Quote from: The Butcher;402542Precisely how I've felt for some time now. I'll play almost anything, running is another matter entirely. And "hating" a game? WTF? Maybe RaHoWa or FATAL, but really, honestly hating a nice, regular game like GURPS or D&D or whatever? I just don't get it.

Well, I think that you may have preferences so you may say "this game is too prep-intensive, so I won't run it." That's what happens to me with GURPS, for example. I have played it, but these days I don't want to do the work of learning it so I can run it. But if a nice group of people invites me to play on their GURPS game, I'm in.

Max and I may not have the same tastes. He's a big fan of Space 1889, and he loves many things about the chargen. I don't, and I wouldn't run that game, but I would play it with him in a heartbeat.

People may turn me away from a game, rarely the game itself.

MERP, Spanish version: the most arid, unimaginative rpg book ever.

Quote from: Imperator;402427As I grow old, I find harder and harder to hate games to the point to say outright 'No' to play them. Running them may be a different question, of course.

Hating is usually a waste of neurons.

There are lots of games I dislike enough that I would not play them unless forced. Golf, bridge, most eurogames, a good number of RPGs, etc. I don't hate these games, I'm just not willing to play them because they aren't my type of game. I'm willing to explain in great detail why I will not play them, however -- especially when I'm talking to someone who just loves them and can't seem to understand why I don't or who tries to tell me they are really just like the games I do like.

Quote from: Lizaur;402723MERP, Spanish version: the most arid, unimaginative rpg book ever.

Dude, I energically disagree with you on that.
PS: Greetings from Barcelona!

Quote from: RandallS;402724There are lots of games I dislike enough that I would not play them unless forced. Golf, bridge, most eurogames, a good number of RPGs, etc. I don't hate these games, I'm just not willing to play them because they aren't my type of game. I'm willing to explain in great detail why I will not play them, however -- especially when I'm talking to someone who just loves them and can't seem to understand why I don't or who tries to tell me they are really just like the games I do like.

Oh, that's OK. It's good everyone has his own preferences.

Hating is an entirely different thing for me.

Quote from: Melan;401918Tunnels&Trolls. Exciting historical document (although Monsters! Monsters! is the more interesting one), but the super-minimalistic rules and tongue in cheek approach are a turnoff. OD&D didn't try to be all-comprehensive, but at least it advocated complex simulation. If I wanted an old school minimal system, I would probably like Advanced Fighting Fantasy more (and Titan is a helluva world guide, especially at the age of twelve).

Some aspects of Gamma World also bother me - again, a bit too tongue in cheek, and lacking a serious mode (this (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_DSs2bX13hVc/Se6Kcy0i0LI/AAAAAAAAA7g/raT9XT1d2I0/s400/GWcover.gif), not this (http://cache.io9.com/assets/resources/2008/03/leporinoid.gif)). Axe Mental on the K&K board (http://www.knights-n-knaves.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7328) has proposed that TSR should have done a straightforward AD&D-level game with similar trade dress and all:

That's the science fiction game I am missing grom the old school palette - neither Traveller-like realistic nor GW- or Star Frontiers-like cheese, just "adventurer fantasy" for spaceships and lasers.

Buck Rodgers XXV? It was built on a modified AD&D engine.

And as for me AD&D 1e, but I admit to having had lots of fun with it. Beyond that Champions- we never got past  CG.

Heh...XXVc is still IMO the single best itteration of AD&D to see print.  The settings not half bad in a low key retrostylized transhuman space sorta way.

As far as Rolemaster goes, I often wonder if people were playing the same game I was.  I mean there's a steep learning curve right at the start but once you get what it's doing and why it's all smooth sailing.  I think the single worst thing in the book is the notion that you should total all your bonuses.  Just totalling the ones you actually expect to use makes life much easier.

Personally, my hate list would be KABAL, Timeship, Man, Myth, and Magic, Other Suns, and Daredevils.  But Man Myth and Magic had great maps, and Daredevils had great pulp adventures.  KABAL had squareroots and percentile multiplication in combat.  And no editing whatsoever!

AD&D, either edition.  I had fun with it, to be sure, but mostly in the RP and interacting with my friends (none of which the game system supports), but the system frustrated and confused me at every turn.

Chart...errr...Rolemaster.  Took the most fun part of most games - chargen - and turned it into a boring chore.

Restricting myself to just stuff I owned back in the old days:

* AD&D - the first edition is a clunky mess to me.  If I'm going old school, it'd be with either the BECMI or 2e rules.

* T&T - I liked the solo aspect, but the lighthearted "humor" tone of the book completely turned me off.

* Gamma World 3rd edition - I loved the cover/box art, I loved the idea of the MSH-esque color chart thingy, I loved they moved away from the D&D rules, and I loved the basic concept (particularly the slightly less wacky take on the GW world).  What I didn't love was the mess of epic proportions that were the rule books - clearly they were put together by an insane, blind man who was randomly stapling together notes about a new edition combined with half-included material from old editions.

* Powers and Perils - Dear God, Powers and Perils.  Arguably the ugliest layout of any RPG ever (your average Palladium book looks like a DaVinci next to it).  It also featured horribly over-complicated rules clearly written by a hex and chit wargame author, as well as being so unorganized, it seriously gave Gamma World 3 a run for its money (GW3 still wins for forgetting to include half the rules).

* Traveller 2000 (later called 2000 AD or whatever) - I kept hearing about Traveller and how great it was, so my friends and I got Traveller 2000.  Boy was that not what we wanted.

Quote from: jgants;402758* Traveller 2000 (later called 2000 AD or whatever) - I kept hearing about Traveller and how great it was, so my friends and I got Traveller 2000.  Boy was that not what we wanted.

You mean Traveller: 2300, later called simply 2300 AD or 2300. It was a continuation, story-wise, of Twilight: 2000. I always liked the setting for 2300 a lot, maybe more than Traveller's Imperium. The actual games were so different that it's hard to compare them, but I enjoyed playing the original Traveller much more.

Quote from: David Johansen;402740As far as Rolemaster goes, I often wonder if people were playing the same game I was.  I mean there's a steep learning curve right at the start but once you get what it's doing and why it's all smooth sailing.  I think the single worst thing in the book is the notion that you should total all your bonuses.  Just totalling the ones you actually expect to use makes life much easier.

Same experience here. Rolemaster as being this overly complex monster of a role playing game is a myth, mainly born from people who had an allergy to tables and charts and didn't bother to actually play the game or use a little brain matter in the process (I mean, it's not rocket science to use some bookmarks to refer to the charts quickly, or photocopy only those you use, for instance).

Sure, the character generation can be long. That I agree with. But in actual play, man, that game's working good.

The problem I had with Rolemaster was not the complexity, it was the tedium.  The initial calculations of chargen required quite a few small math problems; it's not that I couldn't do it, but why would I want to?  One attack often required referencing half a dozen charts - not complex but time consuming.  The extra detail tried to give the impression of realism but the results could be as wonky as much simpler games.  The net result was a slower game that added little in way of realism, immersion, or fun.

Quote from: ColonelHardisson;402771You mean Traveller: 2300, later called simply 2300 AD or 2300. It was a continuation, story-wise, of Twilight: 2000. I always liked the setting for 2300 a lot, maybe more than Traveller's Imperium. The actual games were so different that it's hard to compare them, but I enjoyed playing the original Traveller much more.

Right, Traveller 2300 not 2000.  That's the one I meant.

Quote from: jgants;402758* Powers and Perils - Dear God, Powers and Perils.  Arguably the ugliest layout of any RPG ever (your average Palladium book looks like a DaVinci next to it).  It also featured horribly over-complicated rules clearly written by a hex and chit wargame author

The designer is Richard Snider, whose only other design credits (that I can find) are Adventures in Fantasy (with Dave Arneson) and Star Empires (with Brian Blume, Greg "The Great Svenny" Svenson, and John M. Snider).

Quote from: Benoist;402775Same experience here. Rolemaster as being this overly complex monster of a role playing game is a myth, mainly born from people who had an allergy to tables and charts and didn't bother to actually play the game or use a little brain matter in the process (I mean, it's not rocket science to use some bookmarks to refer to the charts quickly, or photocopy only those you use, for instance).

Sure, the character generation can be long. That I agree with. But in actual play, man, that game's working good.

+1 :)

Quote from: Imperator;402725Dude, I energically disagree with you on that.
PS: Greetings from Barcelona!

Let's face it: MERP was Rolemaster's little brother. When I close my eyes and try to remember it I can only see charts upon charts!... and well, yes, the superb illustrations of the master Angus MacBride. :)

Greetings from sunny Valencia!

Quote from: Lizaur;402881Let's face it: MERP was Rolemaster's little brother. When I close my eyes and try to remember it I can only see charts upon charts!... and well, yes, the superb illustrations of the master Angus MacBride. :)

Which is precisely why I like it. Toned-down Rolemaster* + Middle-Earth + Angus MacBride = win. :D

* I'm not a fan of "real" Rolemaster.

A retro-cloned setting-agnostic MERP would make a badass sword & sorcery game (HARP is close but not quite what I want). If only I still had them old books...

Quote from: Benoist;402775Rolemaster as being this overly complex monster of a role playing game is a myth, mainly born from people who had an allergy to tables and charts and didn't bother to actually play the game or use a little brain matter in the process (I mean, it's not rocket science to use some bookmarks to refer to the charts quickly, or photocopy only those you use, for instance).

I don't mind the charts.

Quote from: Benoist;402775Sure, the character generation can be long. That I agree with. But in actual play, man, that game's working good.

I do mind the character generation. Not because it's long, but because it feels long, and drawn-out, and tedious, with dozens of skill groups and redundant skills (how many different skills does one need to use poison?). That's just poor game design, "realism" be damned.

Same problem I have (to a much lesser degree) with GURPS or Palladium, actually.

Good, functional (and free) character generation software would go a long way towards changing my opinion of either game.

Yeah. Rolemaster was appalling.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;403029Yeah. Rolemaster was appalling.

RPGPundit

There was a nugget of a good system in there, if you had enough systems mastery to cut down on all the effing charts.

But we never got that much systems mastery, because playing it bored the shit out of us.

Most of us loved MERP, though I still found aspects of it annoying, and so "a more robust system MERP is based on" appealed to us.  After playing it for a while, most of us gave up on it.  Tedious, and when you start out, it takes forever flipping through the charts.

If you stuck with it long enough so the charts became second nature, it might fly.  None of us wanted to play it that long, because it was like pulling teeth.

Quote from: Benoist;402775Sure, the character generation can be long. That I agree with. But in actual play, man, that game's working good.

It worked ALRIGHT. I can't remember a gameplay experience that made me want to play it again, but I can think of a few that give me the opposite impression.

But limiting this to the chargen: you're not out of the woods once you made your character. You had to go through the whole skill-point juggling act every time you level up.

Funny thing about Rolemaster - it started out as alternate combat rules for OD&D, so I hear.

Quote from: Caesar Slaad;403346It worked ALRIGHT. I can't remember a gameplay experience that made me want to play it again

Well I can *shrug* Some amazing moments actually. Rolling on critical charts at the last moment of a fight with the BBEG up the stairs, up the tower, Robin Hood style, while the keep was burning all around us, cutting the hand of the bastard and burying my sword in his thigh. Covered with his blood, then jumping from the heights of the tower and crashing down in the moat. An old man rolling a 300+ on a fighter picking on the villagers (we were laughing soooo hard). I mean. So many cool spells for my elementalist. An Actual Fucking Elementalist that DOES feel like a fucking Elementalist. Lots of very cool moments!

Mileages vary, man. :)

I never found the math in Rolemaster particularly challenging, just time consuming.

Chivalry and Sorcery on the other hand, that was the 800 lb. Gorilla. It wasn't the charts, it was the formulas...  I think I spent three weeks just unraveling all the math just for character generation.

At the time, mastery implied a more mature game, a game adults would play. Such thinking is laughable now. When you are 14 though, playing the games the kids in college play or that adults in the real world play is the grail!

I still like Chivalry & Sorcery... Melee is easy, they still have the best Jousting rules. Characters started out with some experience, and a very colorful medieval background. I liked the magic too... You could create entirely new spells on the fly.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;403378Funny thing about Rolemaster - it started out as alternate combat rules for OD&D, so I hear.

From my understanding, it was actually conceived as modular parts one could plug and play with different game systems, like AD&D mostly, and RuneQuest also. RM1 came in 1980, and from there the Arms/Claw/Spell/Campaign Laws evolved to form an entire standalone game system, up until 1984 when the Arms/Claw Law, Spell Law and Character Law were put together in a boxed set. The rest, as they say...